help with infinites

[Deleted member]

we're discussing infinite bans in the SBR. I think we should ban all true infinites. That said, is this effectively killing the character? Can the ICs use other 0-death grabs/combos that don't continue to 999%?

Teach me how to approach this issue for this character. I am of the opinion that the character can maintain viability through death grabs rather than pure infinites.

 

[Funen1]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "death grabs" as opposed to "true infinites". I'd appreciate it if you would elaborate, please.

The ICs' chaingrabs are, as anyone knows, an important part of what makes them as good as they are, so I'm trying to make sure I know what exactly is going on here (as in, what exactly may be banned).

 

[Bnzaaa]

Besides the Ice Climbers many chaingrabs, they also have the Ice Block Lock and Reset, Nana's Spike techchase, and Hobbling.

The Ice Block Lock is performed after Nana spikes the opponent and the opponent fails to tech. This isn't a true infinite, as the opponent can smash DI towards the edge to take less damage. It's also not guaranteed if the opponent techs the spike.

The reset is essntially the same as the Jab Resets from Melee. If the opponent fails to tech, a single Ice Block can be used to force the opponent to stand up.

Nana spike techchase, is basically doing throws into Nana's spike, then reacting to what the opponent does. It's not that useful in terms of chasing due the Ice Climbers' slow foot speed. They can get a smash in if they miss the tech or tech in place.

Hobbling isn't considered a chaingrab as far as I know, but it works the same. It is done by executing a throw with Popo, and footstooling with Nana. Immediately after the footstool, the Ice Climber player shoots 2 Ice Block, resetting the opponent. It's impossible to tech the footstool.

All of these can be done to all characters, just like the chaingrab.

Just like the chaingrab, it's extremely difficult to set up. The Ice Climbers have terrible grab range, and they have the second farthest skid animation in the game. This makes their shield grabbing game pretty bad. There are also no guarunteed setups for grabs. There are some that can work, like grabbing after a dysynched Blizzard, or after an Up-tilt/Squall Hammer. But the grabs are avoidable through DI. It's also difficult when all your opponents know not to get grabbed, and to kill off Nana.

Also, while a grab has potential to sweep an entire stock, the Ice Climbers are easily counterpicked by stages that move, like Rainbow Cruise, that makes it hard to keep Nana with Popo, makes it hard for the zero death to occur. There are also stages with insane hazards, like Brinstar, where the rising lava can disrupt their chaingrabs for a lot of the match. They also have trouble with stages that have platforms, or little space.

The Ice Climbers also have hard counters against them. Metaknight splits them way too eaisly with quick attacks and his range. His insane gimping ability makes it difficult to get an infinite off.

Snake has the range advantage on the Ice Climbers, and can camp the mess out of them. The explosives split the Ice Climbers pretty easily, and can help him from being chaingrabbed.

Rob has fast attacks, and multi-hit attacks that can split the Ice Climbers. His projectile camping/ledge camping is hard to get by also, and he's also good at gimping. He is also very hard to grab in general, because most of his attacks are safe on the block.

Pikachu is considered a hard counter too. He has multi-hit attacks that split the Ice Climbers up, and with the Ice Climbers' floaty nature, they are left as easier targets to thunder than most other character off the stage. Pikachu can also space with auto-cancelled aerials. His agility makes him tough to grab too.

Also despite the chaingrabs, there aren't any Ice Climber mains that are completely dominating the tournament scene.

This is my take on this issue. The Ice Climber infinite shouldn't be banned. The Ice Climbers are too easy to counterpick stagewise, and have a few hard counters. The grabs are also hard to set up on a opponent, due to their range, and no true way to set up the grabs.

 

[Barge]

If you guys ban IC's chain grabs, you might as well ban MK and snake along with them.

 

[ignore the fire]

I thought infinites were only banned because people would stall matches with them...

Hmm.
I know Hylian has argued against banning this and has made it into the SBR for his arguments.
You probably want to talk to him...

 

[meepxzero]

silly to ban because thats all ic have going for them lol. If ur concerned for it stalling just make a rule to kill at 150% or make fthrow-fthrow or fthrow-dthrow the only cg ic mains can do as eventually that cg has to end at the ledge.

 

[Funen1]

EDIT: I initially thought Umbreon was talking about the ICs' chaingrabs, but I just remembered something. Umbreon posted a topic in Tactical Discussion asking for feedback on all true infinites, which, as he mentioned, does not include the ICs' chaingrabs, and I can assume he means the same here too. The only combos that I can think of that may be true infinites are the ones Bnzaaa brought up: the "Ice Block Lock/Reset" and "Hobbling".

1. The Ice Block Lock is, in most cases, a product of an IC chaingrab (D/F-throw to Nana F-air), which has its own ways to be avoided in the first place. The Ice Blocks, when used in this fashion, grow stale rather quickly, usually dealing less than 1% damage each hit if the "victim" hasn't yet reached the edge yet or escaped altogether. Speaking of escaping the IBL, one can Smash-DI away from the blocks to break the timing or, to prevent it outright, tech the Nana F-air spike.

2. I haven't used the Ice Block Reset much, although I have heard a bit about it. Teching the Nana F-air spike solves this problem too. Plus, if the opponent predicts the reset and fails to tech (or chooses not to tech for some strategic reason), he may take the hit and try to surprise the ICs with something (an attack that comes out very fast, for instance). Then again, I don't know if using the IBR implies that you grab the opponent while they are still "stunned" from the hit, so the previous point may not be valid.

3. This is the first I've heard of Hobbling, so I can't say I know much about it. Based on Bnzaaa's description, I do believe there could be one flaw in the technique for the ICs. At higher damage, the throws may leave the enemy outside of footstool range (they get thrown so far as to break the combo); however, the IC user could just set Nana up right above the grabbed opponent so that, immediately as he is thrown, Nana does the footstool. All speculation on my part, obviously. Fell free to disregard me if you must.

Unless there is another important property of Hobbling that I don't know about, I'd say that it would be the only one that should be banned, if at all. The others have distinct methods to escape or avoid a potential infinite through said method, the foundations of which are imperative to high-level play anyway.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't see any problem with ICs infinites as long as they're not used for stalling, which is easy to prevent by setting an upper bound on the percentage at which you're allowed to CG. I would view a ban on the ICs' inescapable and truly infinite CGs as an unnecessary nerf on a not-broken character(s).

edit: I don't understand the distinction you're making between "death grabs" and "pure infinites", and whatever you mean by those, there probably isn't a clear line between them since the ICs' CGs are so versatile.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean true infinites. As in, stand in place and keep doing the same thing over and over to 999%. I think the ICs can function just fine with death grabs and throw combos than say backthrow to backthrow forever. Am I wrong in this?

As long as it does terminate ever and requires different inputs, I won't count it as infinite. Any locks to edge spike are not infinite, as they have a point of termination. etc.

 

[ch33s3]

Banning the Ice Climbers' chaingrab essentially breaks the character. With a sub par ground game and average air game, they would fall to low tier. You cannot make a distinction between infinites and "Death Grabs" because anything the ICs have that is truly inescapable (not punishment for a missed tech) could theoretically be continued for the length of the match. At this point, any decent player who knows anything about the ICs is more than aware that all that is necessary to escape anything the Ice Climbers can do that is not truly infinite is tech the ground when hit into it. That being said, there are some techniques that are not truly infinite that can be used at low percents (grab release to jab to re-grab, and a few others) that are probably theoretically escapable, but not reasonably. These only function at very low percents and generally only on the heavier characters. If some rule must be made to stop true infinites, it must be a percentage at which a kill must happen, otherwise the Ice Climbers entirely lose their viability.

In case it is unclear, or you are unfamiliar with the alternating throws, any throw but up can be chained into any other throw but up, as well as any throw from the lead climber but up being able to set up a footstool from the assistant climber, which allows an inescapable Ice Block Reset to regrab combo. This works on all characters at all percents and can be terminated at any time by hitting the character being held with a smash attack from the non-holding Ice Climber.

To sum up, there is no distinction between a death grab, 0-death, true infinite, etc. and removing them from the Ice Climbers metagame would entirely destroy their tournament viability. I also foresee it being rather impossible to enforce any kind of ban on true infinites with the Ice Climbers because they have so many different options.

 

[Hylian]

Mow you can seriously just ask me. You don't have any idea how many threads pop up reguarding the IC infinites and this board is sick of it. All the information you need here has pretty much been said. Refer to me for anything you need to know.