Help vs a style of Marth

[CawRiN]

Hey guys, I'm in serious need of help against this Marth player. He has a very weird (I'd almost say gimmicky?) Style. He focuses only on getting grab > re grab > fsmash tipper. Everyone says I should just DI away and I'll be fine. Well im getting seriously annoyed from dying at 40% because the tipper still catches me if I DI away. I know ducking grabs is the rest set up. But that isn't always easy to do. I need a few tips on what I should do against him to counter this. It should also be noted that Marth is personally my worst MU, so any and all advice just against the character will help. Thanks in advance.

 

[Low5_]

DI down from throw actually keeps you safe in most scenarios if I'm not mistaken.

To prevent the re-grab, if he's trying to chase your techs with it, just tech in place and duck. Sometimes if you're not waiting for or expecting to duck his grab it's much more difficult to react to and rest.

Marth is quite an annoying matchup but it definitely isn't impossible. Judging by the frequent grabs I'm assuming he's an aggressive Marth. I've found that using platforms to approach (such as waveland off to Bair or Fair) work quite well for poking.

If you get inside, falling Upair to rest works wonders at around 24% (Two strong ariels worth), as does uptilt. Seeing as this Marth has become accustomed to grabbing puff, I'd suggest jumping through his shield and landing behind him for either an Fsmash or a grab (Tomahawk)

Marth has as trouble killing you once you get into high percents, so at that point you don't have to worry about getting grabbed as the risk is high for him and the reward (If you DI down) is nothing to cheer about. I'm no expert on the matchup but those things have always helped me against him.

 

[Crossie]

Pretty much just CC whenever you're on the ground. This will fix that problem, but then he's likely going to start throwing out f-smashes and you're going to have to know how to deal with those. Knowing when to CC for grabs and when to shield for tippers is one of the hardest parts of the Marth matchup for me. But the best way to learn is just to play with Marths a ton and learn how they think, when they're likely to go for what, and whether they have any obvious habits you can catch onto (e.g. when a Marth starts walking away, they're almost always setting up the spacing for a tipper). For a grab-heavy Marth, CC; for an f-smash heavy Marth, shield; for a good Marth, figure out how to mix the two appropriately. There's no single answer I can give for when to CC and when to shield, but it's something you learn with time. Also, practice wavedashing OoS if you can't. Helps you not get stuck in shield and getting stuck in shield gives Marth free grabs.

 

[ChumSSBM]

Try to be in the air whenever you can. Your aerials way out class marth, once you are grounded marth is looking to take the upper hand. Try to crouch and wavedash/ improve your movement to avoid getting grabbed. Honestly i'm not that good at the marth MU either and i have always had trouble with it. To deal with my weakness against my i just tried to always stay in the air whenever i can.

 

[Crossie]

Try to be in the air whenever you can. Your aerials way out class marth, once you are grounded marth is looking to take the upper hand. Try to crouch and wavedash/ improve your movement to avoid getting grabbed. Honestly i'm not that good at the marth MU either and i have always had trouble with it. To deal with my weakness against my i just tried to always stay in the air whenever i can.

This is usually not considered right. The typical opinion of this matchup is that the first person who gets forced into the air gets punished hard for it. Jiggs wants to stay on the ground in her shield or crouching. Use aerials to punish whiffed attacks, attacks that hit shield, or bad movement. Once you get one good hit in, feel free to burn as many jumps as you want while comboing, but get grounded again when you return to neutral game. Marth's anti-airs are amazing, you don't want to have to deal with them.

 

[Low5_]

Marth is one of the only characters in the game who can outspace Jiggs with all of his ariels. Crossie is correct, other than grab, marth usually has to go airborne with a Fair or try to space a risky Fsmash to hit you when you're on the ground crouching or shielding.

Being conscious to DI each of his ariels away will help you the most in this matchup. If you don't try to DI out of his Fair you'll eat another 3 ariels before he's done. Marths game at close range, and behind him are quite weak, so that is where you want to position yourself. Most will try an keep you just within tipper range at closest, so in some cases you have to take a read or punish a whiffed Fsmash to get in.

 

[Celerity668]

Honestly, a good Marth will beat a good Puff 7 times out of 10. I play both characters and find the match-up super easy for Marth. I don't know why people say crouching is good, Marths just use their down-tilt and you can't do anything. Crouching is gimmicky and only punishes bad Marths that go for grabs or poorly spaced aerials (see: PPU vs. Hbox @ APEX 2015).

This match-up is really all about the mix-ups. The best option for Puff is to approach at a ~35 degree short-hop b-air angle (Aim for his head) since Marth has the most awkward time covering that angle since his up-air is kinda laggy and only covers that angle in the beginning of the move. You really want to take control of center but it can be hard since his sword is huge, so getting the Marth comfortable and then going for surprise offensives is the only way you'll get in (since a Marth that can read you = dead balloon). Platforms really help with the mix-up game since you can wave-land --> Aerial. The problem of course comes at the early percents where Marth can crouch cancel. Then, you want to space b-airs and run away until he's around ~30% because he'll combo you if he gets a good string of aerials when you're in his sword range. Once you've racked up a good amount of percent you want to go for hard reads (Falling up-air, Tomahawk, Nairing inside his space, Drills, etc.) since those will lead to Rest/WOP. Make sure you know how to edge guard Marth because that's the best way to kill him outside of random rests. Hope this helps.

 

[Low5_]

People say crouching is good because it is. No one said you should sit in front of marth, stick down ready to eat down-tilts. There is a very healthy balance between staying smart on the ground, and punishing from both the air and the ground. If a marth plays a puff and never grabs aside from reading a tech or a roll, he's already given up an easy shot at a stock or two.

Nothing is wrong with a solid ground game, 0 grab ---> tipper attempts from a scared marth, or the possibility for a couple rests. Either is a plus for puff.

Now I'll have you know that this thread (as you can see by the title) is asking for help against "a style of Marth" and that is what we're trying to assist with. There is plenty of information on the general matchup to be found all around the boards. This user obviously hasn't found what he's looking for so lets not worry about what you would do if you were marth, and try to help out CawRiN with his problem.

~Thanks

 

[Celerity668]

It is good, but it's an overall losing strategy. Once Marth's get smarter and start respecting Puff's moves, they'll figure out how to better deal with it. And yeah, with crouch you make Marth scared to grab, but Marth doesn't need to grab in this match-up -- In fact, I rarely go for them at all. Just swinging that sword is enough to pop that balloon.

 

[Low5_]

With most of the information on this board you will find everyone else is preaching the same as you, and for good reason. The difference is, this particular user wanted help with this particular style of Marth.

That would be the reason most responses stressed crouching and a grounded game as a strategy. I don't deny for a second that as you advance to top level play the matchup strays from easy crouch rest grab punishes.

If the thread was titles "How do I beat Marth, and preached how he had difficulty against higher level Marths then your response would be more warranted. Please don't take my responses as aggressive, I just dislike when responses stray from the initial question.

 

[khadeezy]

DI down from throw actually keeps you safe in most scenarios if I'm not mistaken.

To prevent the re-grab, if he's trying to chase your techs with it, just tech in place and duck. Sometimes if you're not waiting for or expecting to duck his grab it's much more difficult to react to and rest.

Marth is quite an annoying matchup but it definitely isn't impossible. Judging by the frequent grabs I'm assuming he's an aggressive Marth. I've found that using platforms to approach (such as waveland off to Bair or Fair) work quite well for poking.

If you get inside, falling Upair to rest works wonders at around 24% (Two strong ariels worth), as does uptilt. Seeing as this Marth has become accustomed to grabbing puff, I'd suggest jumping through his shield and landing behind him for either an Fsmash or a grab (Tomahawk)

Marth has as trouble killing you once you get into high percents, so at that point you don't have to worry about getting grabbed as the risk is high for him and the reward (If you DI down) is nothing to cheer about. I'm no expert on the matchup but those things have always helped me against him.

to escape regrab at high percentages I read on Kadao's marth guide that down and toward marth is for fgrab chains and up and toward marth for dthrow.

 

[Low5_]

to escape regrab at high percentages I read on Kadao's marth guide that down and toward marth is for fgrab chains and up and toward marth for dthrow.

The problem is, in these cases, you don't always know which throw he will go for. It's very possible that the marths in my area don't know how to punish DI down, but it's always seems safe, and they haven't been able to land a tipper.

 

[khadeezy]

The problem is, in these cases, you don't always know which throw he will go for. It's very possible that the marths in my area don't know how to punish DI down, but it's always seems safe, and they haven't been able to land a tipper.

well you have 7 frames after the throw to start DIing.