Help!
Smash Journeyman
*Updates*
May 08, 2008 - Posted at SWF
May 12, 2008 - Copied and Pasted ??????'s FLUDD Data
Copy Righted by John Lim (Help!)
I don't know how to do the copy right symbol...
I. Intro
II. Character Match ups
III. Stages Pro's and Con's
IV. The Cape
V. Attack Data
VI. ??????'s F.L.U.D.D. Data
I. Intro
So this is mainly created and edited by me, Help! Uhm I'm from Washington and attend tournaments about once or twice a month, and play mainly with Duggish, Banana, and Eggz. I don't have that much experience at the moment as I don't get out to play this game much with others unless it's at tournaments. So the Mario Community is helping out with this and providing thier input to this I guess guide type thingy. Let's see I don't think you guys really need an introduction on Mario himself and his history seeing that we're all gamers and should know about Mario's background.
I guess that just leaves the introduction about myself some more and maybe some tidbits about Brawl Mario, which I actually think will have a different section for that.
I'll update this a lil bit more later, it's late and I'm supposed to be studying...
II. Character Match ups
O.K. Guys Mario boards are dieing down a bit, so let's create a Mario match up thing. I'll start it off and I'll probably be adding more after Gameclucks this Saturday. Any who It's late so I don't want to bother with an introduction, you all know how this works. Post whatever like tips and advantages and disadvantages and crap whatever really I don't really care. Once we figure this out I'll probably try to copy Eggz' structure for his match ups for melee, cause his was pretty and ****, but now I don't have enough to create something like that
Boozer - Advantage
+ Low % Up tilt ****
+ Actual combo's (I think)
+ Fireball ****
+ Cape-able up B
+ Laggy aerials
- Bowser-cides
- Range
Counterpicks: FD. I don't know. Avoid platforms? Cause of him being so big and beefy he can hit through platforms? I don't know no one plays Boozer. I don't know what to tell you. Spear Pillar should actually always be your counter pick no matter who you're playing cause that stage is ****.
Captain Falcon - Advantage
+ Low % U tilt ****
+ Fireball ****
+ Cape-able up B Easy too
+ Falcons Garbage
- Falcon Punch
- U air is ****. Has a lot of priority, so avoid being above Captain Falcon. I don't think you can beat it if you are.
Counterpicks: Errr?
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage or Nuetral
+ Fireball is pretty **** (As always)
+ Out range Diddy pretty well in somethings
+ Cape is helpful enough to claim some banana's
+ Lacks KO moves. You can knock out Diddy pretty decently, while he has to get you up to pretty high percents
- Pretty much lagless Dash attack
- Banana's are gay, they do a lot of things that will really mess you up
- Over b with the kick out priotizes fireball and catch you off guard
- He actually has combos
- His offensive prowlness(is that a word?) is topnotch, he can keep on pressure like no other I've ever seen. He'll rack up damage quick and pull off a lot of hits on you
Counterpicks: Green Greens and Rainbow cruise to reduce banana BS and Diddy's recovery sucks. BF Platforms will mess some banana's up and so will Yoshi's Story. I assume Lylat could mess up Diddy's quite a bit too.
Use the Banana's to your own good. Also Diddy's will attempt try to reclaim the banana's, usually with the dash attack, so abuse that assumption.
Another thing is that fighting Diddy definately different than fighting anyone else in the whole entire game. It really takes time to learn him, but Diddy really does lack in KO moves. You can take percents up to the really high 100's and you can KO Diddy a lot easier than he can KO you. He can rack up on damage really fast though on you and can keep this offensive assualt on pretty harshly, making it confusing and intimidating on what you're actually supposed to do vs diddy. It will really seem like you're losing pretty bad the whole time because of how fast he's racking up percent, but you just have to keep on keeping on, he's quite easy to knock out. He has to be at like 80% at the least to knock out, and Mario has to be pretty much like 150% or higher to be knocked out. I get knocked out in like 170 usually I think.
Donkey Kong - ???
+ Combo's pretty easily
+ Up B cape
- Insane Range
- Decent Speed
- Juggernaught Punch AKA Super Armor frames in the neutral B
- Cargo Stage spikes
Counterpicks: ???
Falco - Disadvantage
+ Low % U tilt ****
+ Falco's recovery is still pretty garbage
+ Cape up b of course, or cape the charge up animation to up air is pretty **** too.
- Chain grabs
- Dair out priotizes U air and maybe everything else Mario's got from below.
- Reflector ***** fireball approach
Counterpick: I dunno
Fox - ???
+ Cape up b
- Last and only time I played a fox I got *****, so I don't really know the info
Counterpick: ???
Game and Watch - ???
- Bucket filled can kill at 100%
Counterpick: ???
Ganon - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Ice Climbers - Disadvantage
-Chain grabs
Counterpick: ???
Ike - He fight for his friends.
- Ike is too good
- Ike is ****
- You cant beat Ike
- Forward Smash
- RAAAWRG
- Duggish
- Eggz
+ Ike ditto money matches
Counterpick: Be Ike and choose Spear Pillar.
Roy (AKA Real Ike info) - Advantage
+ Ikes slow
+ U tilt ***** low percents
+ Fluddable up b
+ Capable Over B although you need to space it right
+ Fireballs ***** up pretty well
- Range and Power
- Nuetral AAA Combo is pretty good
Jiggly - ???
+ Is light
+ One of the worst characters in the game apparently
Counterpick: I assume things with platforms?
King Dedede - ???
+ Caping his up b is satisfying
+ Fireballs
- Chain Grabs
- **** edge gaurding
Counterpick: Nothing with walls or walk offs
Kirby - ???
- I played t!mmy and got *****
Counterpick: ???
Link - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Lucario - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Lucas - Advantage or nuetral
+ Fludd ***** Lucas, Recovery and anything that takes time he can push him off the edge and set up for something good
+ Jump, Cape, Fireball, Fludd, Attack PK Thunder to steal the recovery
- Absorbs Fireballs
- Whoa PK thunder is wierd and it's not a bad edge gaurd
- Fsmash is quick and has plenty of range, also doubles up as a reflector.
Counterpick: Anything seems pretty good, Yoshi's Island ***** them if theyre too close to the wall cause it steals the pk
Luigi - Disadvantage
- Aerial out priotizes
- Real Combos?
- Jab combo to super punch! God I love that crap so much.
I forget what else
Counterpick: Errr
Mario - Extreme Disadvantage
- No matter what Mario wins
- Fludd
- Eggz
Counterpick: Spear Pillar
Marth - Nuetral
+ Can outrange at times
+ Fireballs always = ****
+ Edgegaurd
- Range, not as bad as it used to be though.
- Tipper kills at pretty low percents it's ridiculous, although it sometimes seems that Tipper is random to me.
- Sword, meaning a disjointed hit box, meaning it's harder to pull some things off, but really it's not as big as a problem anymore
- Very fast over b pretty much acts like a jab/ jab combo
Counterpick: Probably FD seeing as the Shield breaker as a recovery can get him caught in FD, plus lack of platforms.
Meta Knight - Disadvantage
+ Fireball
+ If you pay attention Meta has some pretty decent end lag in some attacks.
- Range and priority is ridiculous as everyone has found out about Metaknight
- Up B is waaaay too good not to spam the hell out of it. Kills at Early percents. Super high glide attack priority
- Eggz is kind of a big deal
Counterpick: I think maybe Yoshi's Cause of short edges
Ness - Advantage or nuetral
Same as I said for Lucas
- Better PK Thunder
- Better than Lucas
- Duggish is koo
Counterpick: Same as Lucas
Peach - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Pikachu - ???
+ Fireball
- There was something I don't remember anymore
Counterpick: Probably FD
Just remember to DI out of the Dsmash
Pikmin and Olimar - Disadvantage
+ Edge hog (Hugging, Cape Hug thing, Cape Stall)
- Olimar's too ****
- Range
- Grabs are ridiculous
- Red pikmin are immune to fire
Counterpick: I don't even know
Pit - Disadvantage
- Reflector
- Edgegaurding
- Too good
Counterpick: ???
Pokemon Trainer - ??? (Mostly Monk Data)
Ivysaur - ???
+ Easy to combo
+ Easy to edgehog
- Mario is easily out ranged
Charizard - ???
+ Easy to combo
- Rock Smash, lol rock smash is tight just saying.
- Hard to KO
- Mario is KO'd easier
Squirtle - ???
- He's a quick little *******
Counterpick: ???
R.O.B. - Disadvantage
- Range, Everything ROB does outranges Mario and is quick enough to interupt attacks. So ROB attacks out priotizes most of Marios. Even a properly spaced Fsmash will get interupted and out ranged ROB's ftilt.
- Power
- Extremely fast laser, for gimping the 2nd jump and such.
- Incredible Recovery
Counterpick: ???
I think ROB is one of the best counterpicks against Mario cause i see nothing Mario can do, but i don't have too much experience.
Samus - ???
+ Caping Missiles speeds em up
- Grapple cancel keeps distance pretty well, and ruins some approaches
Counterpick: ???
Shiek - Disadvantage
- Range
- Speed
- Combos
- Needles
Counterpick: ???
Snake - Eggz says Mario's a counterpick and really Mario isn't too bad against Snake, but I'm not so sure he's a counter pick.
+ Fair his up b is too ****, If you can send Snake Low enough it's not too hard edgegaurd him.
+ U tilt **** low %
+ Jabs intererupt pretty well
- Ftilt
- Utilt
Counterpick: FD So you can see where he plants his mines and he only has one platform to plant em.
Sonic - Neutral or Advantage
+ Sonics garbage
Counterpick: ???
Toon Link - Disadvantage
- Range
- Speed
- Projectiles
- Shield
- Bair
Counterpick: ???
Wario - ??? ( I'd assume advantage )
+ Lack of range
Counterpick: FD?
Wolf - ???
+ Utilt **** at low percents
+ You have the same priorities with Ftilt, Jab, Utilts. So I think you can clank or interupt Smash attacks pretty well
+ Cape Up b
- Lasers
- F smash
- Dsmash is way too fast and spammable
I've played a couple wolf's but I can't remember what's up with them
Counterpick: Lylat or FD cause of edges. Avoid BF for ledge tricks
Yoshi - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Zelda - Neutral
+ Zeldas slow
- Neutral B is pretty good, Can be used to stop Fireball approaches, and also has this really ridiculous range that even stops you from F smashing, It's pretty annoying.
- Range, invisible hitboxes sorta
- Long lasting attacks, Just got to get used to the timing so you don't let go of the shield too early then you can punish
- Power, tilts, smashes, aerials, She's got a lot of KO moves.
- Down smash has got a good trajectory to shoot people out at along with power, making one attack that can set up for edgegaurds, and sometimes KO's without actually sending you off the edge.
- Look out for the lightning kicks, they're pretty **** good... Gets really scary to do aerials at higher percents as the toe isn't the hardest thing to connect with and the range is semi decent.
- Good recovery, She teleports from far away, nuff said.
Counterpick: FD. Err avoid Battle Field and Yoshi's Story she's got some range advantage on those stages.
With all these Negatives and such, I for some reason still beat Zeldas... So I'm keeping her Nuetral. I don't really know a strat either. Just don't be intimidated by this It's not nearly as bad as it seems.
Zamus - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Yeah so a lot of that is pretty vague I don't have too much experience and the experience I have I forgot what to do. I just do it.
III. Stage Pro's and Con's
I don't know how well we can figure this out right at the moment, but we can at least get it started. I've noticed a few things a few stages and I havn't been playing brawl that much so correct me if I'm wrong and add your own, we'll start building a list starting now.
I'll update whenever I feel like it. This looks a lot like Eggz's melee one cept not as pretty, but I like his structure.
+ = pro's
- = con's
* = not sure someone test or correct me
^ = misc's
Nuetrals
BattleField
+ Sh aerials underneath platforms leave you relativily safe
+ Double uair underneath bottom platforms
+ No horrible disadvantage from what I've noticed
+ Platforms allow for easier 'combos' with uair and such
+ Platforms help with fireballs a bit?
-* Wolf might be able to camp better on this stage although i havnt played too many wolfs, but the platforms kinda limit fullhoped
fireball approaches (only played one wolf online with lag, but that's what it seems like.
- Characters with range or vertical range have an advantage on this stage (eg. Marth, Zelda)
^ Edges allows you drop down wall jump and do something fancy like bairs or reverse uairs
Seems pretty neutral to me I always counterpick it cause I'm the most comfortable on this stage.
Final Destination
+ You can spam easier with the lack of platforms getting in the way
- Edges worst than Battlefield (melee)
^* I'm pretty sure you can do that wall jump trick on FD although it's harder I think you can at least I already forgot
Seems pretty neutral, but I dont counterpick it becuase the edges suck.
Yoshi's Island
+ No gliding underneath the stage allowing just one less option for recoveries (Metaknight and Pit) This also can allow for easier edgegaurding on Pit if he has to use his up b
+ Short blast lines for Mario not having the greatest KO moves although they're not bad now.
-* Platform slants making it harder to strike from below if raised and maybe even in the middle. (I really don't know I'm too sh happy and dont full hop all to much.)
- Short blast lines
-* Range Characters can probably still abuse the platform
- When the platform is slanted it can ruin the fireballs
- One big platform in the middle limits the fireballs to only sh fireballs pretty much
I havn't noticed anything too bad about this stage, but I really don't know. Mario might be at a disadvantage it seems at least but I can't say for sure. Actually I don't like the big platform
Smashville
+ Can be pretty spam happy with the moving platform not being in the way so much
+* I don't remember too well but pretty safe underneath platform game?
+* Moving platform can allow for an easier edgegaurding game?
+ Edges allow for easier sweet spotting (like it wasn't easy enough)
+* Moving platform makes it a safer platform to be on against ranged characters? (although I'm sure if theyre good enough it wont effect them)
+* Moving platform allows it to get around Wolf's Laser spam better?
-Moving platform allows for easier edgegaurding
*You know what this might possibly be Mario's best counterpick, now that I think about it... Needs to be figured out by someone smarter or better than me.
Lylat Cruise
+ Pretty sure there's still a safe underneath platform game
+ Alright this is the best thing I found so far. Standing projectiles are worse depending on the slant of the stage. (Actually now that I think about it the slant could mess with straight moving projectiles pretty well becuase it could get caught on the stage or fly over head depending on the positions of people on the stage, While not hindering Mario's fireball game too much.)
+ Platforms are pretty short allowing for a trickier fireball game along with a tilt in the stage
-Range characters seem to have the upper hand on this stage with tilted platforms and such.
-Edges can be easy to hang up on, specially with tilting and stuff.
^ Background's pretty cool to look at
Counter pick versus Wolf to avoid a lot of laser spamming and a tougher recovery for him. You can cape him even if he's going vertical i think he still goes under the stage.
Seems pretty nuetral maybe not versus ranged characters but i dont really know
Counter-Picks
Fridgate Ophean
+ The Flip is pretty **** cool although it could mess you up pretty bad as in a lost of stock
+ Oh actually the flip back to the original state of the level could mess up tether recoveries cause of the lack of an edge on the right side
+ Even better Lack of edge on the right side messes up tether recoveries pretty good
-No Edge on the right side before the flip I think that sucks
Rainbow Cruise
+Keeping tether recoveries where the stage is starting to disapear and off the edge allows for easier gimping due to lack of edges
Alright there's my list of Neutrals anyone feel free to correct or add on to this list be it to these stages or to other stages that are counterpicks, what characters you should counterpick what stage or whatever and other stuff.
IV. The Cape
So The Cape does some wierd things like it used to do some wierd things in melee. Well this time it seems to turn around people more then it used to.
Alright to start off I'll just list some things that it does differently now.
Cape was always pretty decent in melee. but it does some wierd stuff in brawl and I think it's got better edgeguarding capabilities. Here's some useful info for all ya all.
-Caping samus's power missiles makes them travel faster
-The Cape is way cooloer then the fludd
-The Cape is way more useful and easier to use than the fludd
-Caping a double jump launches them higher but also in the other direction (doing this to people with vertical recoveries messes with them quite a bit, for instance marth)
-Caping people reverses there momentum causing them to travel just as fast the other way. (like when you caped people in melee when they were just falling they would just turn around and head in the same direction. In brawl it reverses their direction too.)
-Caping seems to turn around people a lot better than in melee aka if you caped a roll in melee they would roll in the same direction but their animation would be like backwards sorta. but if you cape a roll in brawl they roll the other direction.
-Someone on Smashboards says if you caped fox or falcos charge up animation of the up b it turns em around. THIS STILL DOES NOT WORK it brings them higher and they can still go the direction they want to. This applies to Diddy Kong too. You can however cape Wolf's up b as it is like Fox and Falcos illusion.
-You can cape Snakes Up b although he still gets another up b for no apparent reason...
-Caping Samus's jumps or up b i think are both beneficial to her recovery as she jumps extremely high and not to horizontally(unless i guess you cape her up b to set up for a smash or something)
-Caping Zeldas up b when she is activating it makes her go the other way
-I dont think this works on Shiek
-The Cape still does a lot of things from melee (but not all)
-The Cape no longer turns around people when shield cause the shield is all mighty and powerful in this game
-The Cape is shorter and feels different then the melee cape. (Not sure what it is, the reflecting doesnt feel as long or something, maybe the lag is longer or something I really don't know it just feels different)
-aerial cape extension thingy that you mentioned just aids in agressively edgeguarding people who are recoverying high, basically. just do that -> uair and it'll get'em
-Eggz
-You can cape stall pretty well (but not safely) on the edge just cape opposite of the ledge and you'll crap right back after the cape animation is done. I guess you can cape people coming to the edge like that although they have to be a certain distance or they'll sweetspot the ledge.
-Cape pivots. I think you can cape the opposite direction during the dash animation. I havnt found a real use although i havnt used it much but im sure it will come in handy for spacing or juking people to attack then you cape or something of that sorts. As far as i can tell you cant cape backwards during the actual running animation.
-Also the most useless thing i found you can cape waveland. It's absolutely pointless but kinda tricky to pull off. You just run off the edge and time it right so you cape back on the stage and you do a small little wave land while caping.
Note: You can do this with a fireball too which is also just as useless.
-So this was found by someone at SWF named ???????. It's called cape dashing i guess and you just cape at the end of the dashing animation and you get this waveland effect and it gives your cape some more range to cover. i suppose if you were to be caping a projectile too you would be closing in some distance too, The distance isnt that great but it's enough.
-Uhm... This is as much as I can remember and know. I guess I'll update and you guys should tell me what I'm missing.
V. Attack Data
Hey thought I’d do this cause I didn’t have anything else to do today…
All testing done on a level 9 stopped computer in training mode, so no damage decay.
Here’s the layout:
Attack
-Attack Description
-Range (Short, Medium, Long, (Disjointed))
-Lag/Delay (Windup/Actual Attack/Wind down), (Quick, Meh, Slow)
-Percentage of damage dealt
-Knockback trajectory
Neutral A,A,A Combo
-jab, jab, kick
-short to medium, medium, Barely more than medium
-Quick/quick/quick, quick/quick/quick, quick/quick/meh
-3%, 2%, 4%, (9% Total)
-Barely any knockback but it’s upwards I think, same as before, horizontal with some vertical
Dash attack
-a slide tackle, pretty much
-The hitbox is inside Mario, but he slides across the ground creating range… So… Long?
-Quick/Slow/quick
-9%
-Vertical
F tilt
-an extended kick infront of him
-Medium
-quick/meh/quick
8%
-Horizontal with some vertical
U tilt
-a spinning uppercut that starts infront of him, rises above his head, and ends behind him
-Short range in front and behind him, Medium above him
-quick/meh to slow/quick
7%
-vertical (Some killing potential at High Percents)
D tilt
-a leg sweep in front of him
-Medium
-quick/meh/meh
5% (7% if they’re in the air)
-Vertical
Fsmash
-Pulls back then steps forward to release a fireball explosion in front of him
-Long and disjointed (This has amazing range (And can have more if you do Gesi1223’s C-stick trick)
-quick to meh/quick/slow
Regular (No tilting)
Non-Sweetspotted
14-19%
Sweetspotted
17-23%
Tilted down(least killing potential)
Non
13%-17%
Sweet
16%-19%
Tilted up (Most Killing Potential)
Non
15%-21%
Sweet
18-25%
-The trajectory is all pretty much the same, horizontal and a little vertical, they each have different killing potentials though, might have to do with damage or could do more knockback, not sure yet.
Dsmash
-Does like a break dance leg sweep that goes around both sides of him with both legs
-medium
-quick/meh/quick
Front (More Knockback)
-15%-21%
Behind
-12%-16%
-Trajectory is pretty much the same on both sides, but the front has more knockback. (Kill move)
Usmash
-Hits people with his head
-Short from in front and behind, but Medium vertically
-quick/quick/meh
-14%- 19%
-Vertical (Kill move)
B
-Shoots out a fireball
-Projectile that shoots at a 45 degree angle and bounces
-meh/fireball travels for a while/slow (all together a good projectile that is a lot faster than melee’s delays
-5%
-not really a hit back just some hit stun
Up b
-Hit box is in Mario, but he’s quick and travels so… long
-quick/ slow/ landing lag is meh
-5%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 3%,
-diagonally up and over
Side b
-The Beloved Cape, Whips out a cape in front of him that turns people around and reflect projectiles
-just barely below medium
-quick/meh/meh
-8% (6% when youre in the air)
-No knock back just turns people around.
Down b
-Projectile
-Charge
-quick to meh/slow/quick to meh
-0%
-pushes people back like the tree blowing in Kirby 64
Nair
- The Sex kick, sticks out his foot in front of him
-Short, but the hit box is all of him pretty much
-quick/slow/quick, barely any landing lag
-10% initial, 5% after initial
-Horizontal (Kill move at higher percents)
Bair
-Does a backwards drop kick with both feet
-medium to long especially since you can travel with it
-quick/meh/quick, barely any landing lag also you can do short hop double aerials
-12%
-Horizontal with some vertical (Kill move at higher percents)
Uair
-does a bicycle kick
-medium to long
-quick/meh/quick, barely any landing lag, can do sh double aerials
-11%
-Diagonally over and upwards (some killing potential at higher percents)
Dair
-The Mario Tornado, Sticks out his fists and spins around
-Short
-quick/slow/quick kinda slow landing lag, also can do sh double aerials, but only with the uair and nair afterwards
-1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 7%
-Vertical
Fair
-Winds up for a powerful down punch to the noggin
-Short
-meh/slow/ slow tons of landing lag
Fist before it reaches horizontalness
-12 %
-diagonally up and over
The Meteor smash part
-13%
-down…
Grabs
Head bunt
-***** his head back than bashes then in the dome with his own noggin if you didn’t catch that.
-short
-slow/quick/meh
-3%
-no trajectory
F throw
-Tosses em forwards
-short with also the opponent being a projectile so projectile?
-quick to meh/quick/quick
-9%
-diagonally up and over
B throw
-The classic 64 throw with the spin and all that jazz
-I think it still knocks people with the spin around not sure but projectile of sorts
-slow/quick/quick
-12%
-diagonally up and over behind you.
D throw
-A quick throw to the ground
-short maybe projectile? Not sure im lazy
-quick/quick/quick
-6%
-vertical
U throw
-throws you up. Go figure
-short same explanation as d throw
-quick/quick/quick
-8%
-vertical
Final Smash
-Mario Finale shoots like fireballs and stuff
-huge range like infinite horizontal or something and also its big if you couldn’t tell
-slow/slow/slow
-15-40% or at least that’s the most I’ve done. If you use the final smash right next to them it does 6% dmg if you do it when they’re right behind you it does 9% and it shoots them in front of the fireballs.
-drags them with the fireballs so I guess it pushes forwards a bit?
The attacks also do weaker damage at some point when the opponent lands and misses a tech or something like that… Not sure when it is, but the dash attack does 7% during one some point when the opponent bounces or something. The fair also does 10% during the same incident.
May 08, 2008 - Posted at SWF
May 12, 2008 - Copied and Pasted ??????'s FLUDD Data
Copy Righted by John Lim (Help!)
I don't know how to do the copy right symbol...
I. Intro
II. Character Match ups
III. Stages Pro's and Con's
IV. The Cape
V. Attack Data
VI. ??????'s F.L.U.D.D. Data
I. Intro
So this is mainly created and edited by me, Help! Uhm I'm from Washington and attend tournaments about once or twice a month, and play mainly with Duggish, Banana, and Eggz. I don't have that much experience at the moment as I don't get out to play this game much with others unless it's at tournaments. So the Mario Community is helping out with this and providing thier input to this I guess guide type thingy. Let's see I don't think you guys really need an introduction on Mario himself and his history seeing that we're all gamers and should know about Mario's background.
I guess that just leaves the introduction about myself some more and maybe some tidbits about Brawl Mario, which I actually think will have a different section for that.
I'll update this a lil bit more later, it's late and I'm supposed to be studying...
II. Character Match ups
O.K. Guys Mario boards are dieing down a bit, so let's create a Mario match up thing. I'll start it off and I'll probably be adding more after Gameclucks this Saturday. Any who It's late so I don't want to bother with an introduction, you all know how this works. Post whatever like tips and advantages and disadvantages and crap whatever really I don't really care. Once we figure this out I'll probably try to copy Eggz' structure for his match ups for melee, cause his was pretty and ****, but now I don't have enough to create something like that
Boozer - Advantage
+ Low % Up tilt ****
+ Actual combo's (I think)
+ Fireball ****
+ Cape-able up B
+ Laggy aerials
- Bowser-cides
- Range
Counterpicks: FD. I don't know. Avoid platforms? Cause of him being so big and beefy he can hit through platforms? I don't know no one plays Boozer. I don't know what to tell you. Spear Pillar should actually always be your counter pick no matter who you're playing cause that stage is ****.
Captain Falcon - Advantage
+ Low % U tilt ****
+ Fireball ****
+ Cape-able up B Easy too
+ Falcons Garbage
- Falcon Punch
- U air is ****. Has a lot of priority, so avoid being above Captain Falcon. I don't think you can beat it if you are.
Counterpicks: Errr?
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage or Nuetral
+ Fireball is pretty **** (As always)
+ Out range Diddy pretty well in somethings
+ Cape is helpful enough to claim some banana's
+ Lacks KO moves. You can knock out Diddy pretty decently, while he has to get you up to pretty high percents
- Pretty much lagless Dash attack
- Banana's are gay, they do a lot of things that will really mess you up
- Over b with the kick out priotizes fireball and catch you off guard
- He actually has combos
- His offensive prowlness(is that a word?) is topnotch, he can keep on pressure like no other I've ever seen. He'll rack up damage quick and pull off a lot of hits on you
Counterpicks: Green Greens and Rainbow cruise to reduce banana BS and Diddy's recovery sucks. BF Platforms will mess some banana's up and so will Yoshi's Story. I assume Lylat could mess up Diddy's quite a bit too.
Use the Banana's to your own good. Also Diddy's will attempt try to reclaim the banana's, usually with the dash attack, so abuse that assumption.
Another thing is that fighting Diddy definately different than fighting anyone else in the whole entire game. It really takes time to learn him, but Diddy really does lack in KO moves. You can take percents up to the really high 100's and you can KO Diddy a lot easier than he can KO you. He can rack up on damage really fast though on you and can keep this offensive assualt on pretty harshly, making it confusing and intimidating on what you're actually supposed to do vs diddy. It will really seem like you're losing pretty bad the whole time because of how fast he's racking up percent, but you just have to keep on keeping on, he's quite easy to knock out. He has to be at like 80% at the least to knock out, and Mario has to be pretty much like 150% or higher to be knocked out. I get knocked out in like 170 usually I think.
Donkey Kong - ???
+ Combo's pretty easily
+ Up B cape
- Insane Range
- Decent Speed
- Juggernaught Punch AKA Super Armor frames in the neutral B
- Cargo Stage spikes
Counterpicks: ???
Falco - Disadvantage
+ Low % U tilt ****
+ Falco's recovery is still pretty garbage
+ Cape up b of course, or cape the charge up animation to up air is pretty **** too.
- Chain grabs
- Dair out priotizes U air and maybe everything else Mario's got from below.
- Reflector ***** fireball approach
Counterpick: I dunno
Fox - ???
+ Cape up b
- Last and only time I played a fox I got *****, so I don't really know the info
Counterpick: ???
Game and Watch - ???
- Bucket filled can kill at 100%
Counterpick: ???
Ganon - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Ice Climbers - Disadvantage
-Chain grabs
Counterpick: ???
Ike - He fight for his friends.
- Ike is too good
- Ike is ****
- You cant beat Ike
- Forward Smash
- RAAAWRG
- Duggish
- Eggz
+ Ike ditto money matches
Counterpick: Be Ike and choose Spear Pillar.
Roy (AKA Real Ike info) - Advantage
+ Ikes slow
+ U tilt ***** low percents
+ Fluddable up b
+ Capable Over B although you need to space it right
+ Fireballs ***** up pretty well
- Range and Power
- Nuetral AAA Combo is pretty good
Jiggly - ???
+ Is light
+ One of the worst characters in the game apparently
Counterpick: I assume things with platforms?
King Dedede - ???
+ Caping his up b is satisfying
+ Fireballs
- Chain Grabs
- **** edge gaurding
Counterpick: Nothing with walls or walk offs
Kirby - ???
- I played t!mmy and got *****
Counterpick: ???
Link - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Lucario - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Lucas - Advantage or nuetral
+ Fludd ***** Lucas, Recovery and anything that takes time he can push him off the edge and set up for something good
+ Jump, Cape, Fireball, Fludd, Attack PK Thunder to steal the recovery
- Absorbs Fireballs
- Whoa PK thunder is wierd and it's not a bad edge gaurd
- Fsmash is quick and has plenty of range, also doubles up as a reflector.
Counterpick: Anything seems pretty good, Yoshi's Island ***** them if theyre too close to the wall cause it steals the pk
Luigi - Disadvantage
- Aerial out priotizes
- Real Combos?
- Jab combo to super punch! God I love that crap so much.
I forget what else
Counterpick: Errr
Mario - Extreme Disadvantage
- No matter what Mario wins
- Fludd
- Eggz
Counterpick: Spear Pillar
Marth - Nuetral
+ Can outrange at times
+ Fireballs always = ****
+ Edgegaurd
- Range, not as bad as it used to be though.
- Tipper kills at pretty low percents it's ridiculous, although it sometimes seems that Tipper is random to me.
- Sword, meaning a disjointed hit box, meaning it's harder to pull some things off, but really it's not as big as a problem anymore
- Very fast over b pretty much acts like a jab/ jab combo
Counterpick: Probably FD seeing as the Shield breaker as a recovery can get him caught in FD, plus lack of platforms.
Meta Knight - Disadvantage
+ Fireball
+ If you pay attention Meta has some pretty decent end lag in some attacks.
- Range and priority is ridiculous as everyone has found out about Metaknight
- Up B is waaaay too good not to spam the hell out of it. Kills at Early percents. Super high glide attack priority
- Eggz is kind of a big deal
Counterpick: I think maybe Yoshi's Cause of short edges
Ness - Advantage or nuetral
Same as I said for Lucas
- Better PK Thunder
- Better than Lucas
- Duggish is koo
Counterpick: Same as Lucas
Peach - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Pikachu - ???
+ Fireball
- There was something I don't remember anymore
Counterpick: Probably FD
Just remember to DI out of the Dsmash
Pikmin and Olimar - Disadvantage
+ Edge hog (Hugging, Cape Hug thing, Cape Stall)
- Olimar's too ****
- Range
- Grabs are ridiculous
- Red pikmin are immune to fire
Counterpick: I don't even know
Pit - Disadvantage
- Reflector
- Edgegaurding
- Too good
Counterpick: ???
Pokemon Trainer - ??? (Mostly Monk Data)
Ivysaur - ???
+ Easy to combo
+ Easy to edgehog
- Mario is easily out ranged
Charizard - ???
+ Easy to combo
- Rock Smash, lol rock smash is tight just saying.
- Hard to KO
- Mario is KO'd easier
Squirtle - ???
- He's a quick little *******
Counterpick: ???
R.O.B. - Disadvantage
- Range, Everything ROB does outranges Mario and is quick enough to interupt attacks. So ROB attacks out priotizes most of Marios. Even a properly spaced Fsmash will get interupted and out ranged ROB's ftilt.
- Power
- Extremely fast laser, for gimping the 2nd jump and such.
- Incredible Recovery
Counterpick: ???
I think ROB is one of the best counterpicks against Mario cause i see nothing Mario can do, but i don't have too much experience.
Samus - ???
+ Caping Missiles speeds em up
- Grapple cancel keeps distance pretty well, and ruins some approaches
Counterpick: ???
Shiek - Disadvantage
- Range
- Speed
- Combos
- Needles
Counterpick: ???
Snake - Eggz says Mario's a counterpick and really Mario isn't too bad against Snake, but I'm not so sure he's a counter pick.
+ Fair his up b is too ****, If you can send Snake Low enough it's not too hard edgegaurd him.
+ U tilt **** low %
+ Jabs intererupt pretty well
- Ftilt
- Utilt
Counterpick: FD So you can see where he plants his mines and he only has one platform to plant em.
Sonic - Neutral or Advantage
+ Sonics garbage
Counterpick: ???
Toon Link - Disadvantage
- Range
- Speed
- Projectiles
- Shield
- Bair
Counterpick: ???
Wario - ??? ( I'd assume advantage )
+ Lack of range
Counterpick: FD?
Wolf - ???
+ Utilt **** at low percents
+ You have the same priorities with Ftilt, Jab, Utilts. So I think you can clank or interupt Smash attacks pretty well
+ Cape Up b
- Lasers
- F smash
- Dsmash is way too fast and spammable
I've played a couple wolf's but I can't remember what's up with them
Counterpick: Lylat or FD cause of edges. Avoid BF for ledge tricks
Yoshi - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Zelda - Neutral
+ Zeldas slow
- Neutral B is pretty good, Can be used to stop Fireball approaches, and also has this really ridiculous range that even stops you from F smashing, It's pretty annoying.
- Range, invisible hitboxes sorta
- Long lasting attacks, Just got to get used to the timing so you don't let go of the shield too early then you can punish
- Power, tilts, smashes, aerials, She's got a lot of KO moves.
- Down smash has got a good trajectory to shoot people out at along with power, making one attack that can set up for edgegaurds, and sometimes KO's without actually sending you off the edge.
- Look out for the lightning kicks, they're pretty **** good... Gets really scary to do aerials at higher percents as the toe isn't the hardest thing to connect with and the range is semi decent.
- Good recovery, She teleports from far away, nuff said.
Counterpick: FD. Err avoid Battle Field and Yoshi's Story she's got some range advantage on those stages.
With all these Negatives and such, I for some reason still beat Zeldas... So I'm keeping her Nuetral. I don't really know a strat either. Just don't be intimidated by this It's not nearly as bad as it seems.
Zamus - ???
???
Counterpick: ???
Yeah so a lot of that is pretty vague I don't have too much experience and the experience I have I forgot what to do. I just do it.
III. Stage Pro's and Con's
I don't know how well we can figure this out right at the moment, but we can at least get it started. I've noticed a few things a few stages and I havn't been playing brawl that much so correct me if I'm wrong and add your own, we'll start building a list starting now.
I'll update whenever I feel like it. This looks a lot like Eggz's melee one cept not as pretty, but I like his structure.
+ = pro's
- = con's
* = not sure someone test or correct me
^ = misc's
Nuetrals
BattleField
+ Sh aerials underneath platforms leave you relativily safe
+ Double uair underneath bottom platforms
+ No horrible disadvantage from what I've noticed
+ Platforms allow for easier 'combos' with uair and such
+ Platforms help with fireballs a bit?
-* Wolf might be able to camp better on this stage although i havnt played too many wolfs, but the platforms kinda limit fullhoped
fireball approaches (only played one wolf online with lag, but that's what it seems like.
- Characters with range or vertical range have an advantage on this stage (eg. Marth, Zelda)
^ Edges allows you drop down wall jump and do something fancy like bairs or reverse uairs
Seems pretty neutral to me I always counterpick it cause I'm the most comfortable on this stage.
Final Destination
+ You can spam easier with the lack of platforms getting in the way
- Edges worst than Battlefield (melee)
^* I'm pretty sure you can do that wall jump trick on FD although it's harder I think you can at least I already forgot
Seems pretty neutral, but I dont counterpick it becuase the edges suck.
Yoshi's Island
+ No gliding underneath the stage allowing just one less option for recoveries (Metaknight and Pit) This also can allow for easier edgegaurding on Pit if he has to use his up b
+ Short blast lines for Mario not having the greatest KO moves although they're not bad now.
-* Platform slants making it harder to strike from below if raised and maybe even in the middle. (I really don't know I'm too sh happy and dont full hop all to much.)
- Short blast lines
-* Range Characters can probably still abuse the platform
- When the platform is slanted it can ruin the fireballs
- One big platform in the middle limits the fireballs to only sh fireballs pretty much
I havn't noticed anything too bad about this stage, but I really don't know. Mario might be at a disadvantage it seems at least but I can't say for sure. Actually I don't like the big platform
Smashville
+ Can be pretty spam happy with the moving platform not being in the way so much
+* I don't remember too well but pretty safe underneath platform game?
+* Moving platform can allow for an easier edgegaurding game?
+ Edges allow for easier sweet spotting (like it wasn't easy enough)
+* Moving platform makes it a safer platform to be on against ranged characters? (although I'm sure if theyre good enough it wont effect them)
+* Moving platform allows it to get around Wolf's Laser spam better?
-Moving platform allows for easier edgegaurding
*You know what this might possibly be Mario's best counterpick, now that I think about it... Needs to be figured out by someone smarter or better than me.
Lylat Cruise
+ Pretty sure there's still a safe underneath platform game
+ Alright this is the best thing I found so far. Standing projectiles are worse depending on the slant of the stage. (Actually now that I think about it the slant could mess with straight moving projectiles pretty well becuase it could get caught on the stage or fly over head depending on the positions of people on the stage, While not hindering Mario's fireball game too much.)
+ Platforms are pretty short allowing for a trickier fireball game along with a tilt in the stage
-Range characters seem to have the upper hand on this stage with tilted platforms and such.
-Edges can be easy to hang up on, specially with tilting and stuff.
^ Background's pretty cool to look at
Counter pick versus Wolf to avoid a lot of laser spamming and a tougher recovery for him. You can cape him even if he's going vertical i think he still goes under the stage.
Seems pretty nuetral maybe not versus ranged characters but i dont really know
Counter-Picks
Fridgate Ophean
+ The Flip is pretty **** cool although it could mess you up pretty bad as in a lost of stock
+ Oh actually the flip back to the original state of the level could mess up tether recoveries cause of the lack of an edge on the right side
+ Even better Lack of edge on the right side messes up tether recoveries pretty good
-No Edge on the right side before the flip I think that sucks
Rainbow Cruise
+Keeping tether recoveries where the stage is starting to disapear and off the edge allows for easier gimping due to lack of edges
Alright there's my list of Neutrals anyone feel free to correct or add on to this list be it to these stages or to other stages that are counterpicks, what characters you should counterpick what stage or whatever and other stuff.
IV. The Cape
So The Cape does some wierd things like it used to do some wierd things in melee. Well this time it seems to turn around people more then it used to.
Alright to start off I'll just list some things that it does differently now.
Cape was always pretty decent in melee. but it does some wierd stuff in brawl and I think it's got better edgeguarding capabilities. Here's some useful info for all ya all.
-Caping samus's power missiles makes them travel faster
-The Cape is way cooloer then the fludd
-The Cape is way more useful and easier to use than the fludd
-Caping a double jump launches them higher but also in the other direction (doing this to people with vertical recoveries messes with them quite a bit, for instance marth)
-Caping people reverses there momentum causing them to travel just as fast the other way. (like when you caped people in melee when they were just falling they would just turn around and head in the same direction. In brawl it reverses their direction too.)
-Caping seems to turn around people a lot better than in melee aka if you caped a roll in melee they would roll in the same direction but their animation would be like backwards sorta. but if you cape a roll in brawl they roll the other direction.
-Someone on Smashboards says if you caped fox or falcos charge up animation of the up b it turns em around. THIS STILL DOES NOT WORK it brings them higher and they can still go the direction they want to. This applies to Diddy Kong too. You can however cape Wolf's up b as it is like Fox and Falcos illusion.
-You can cape Snakes Up b although he still gets another up b for no apparent reason...
-Caping Samus's jumps or up b i think are both beneficial to her recovery as she jumps extremely high and not to horizontally(unless i guess you cape her up b to set up for a smash or something)
-Caping Zeldas up b when she is activating it makes her go the other way
-I dont think this works on Shiek
-The Cape still does a lot of things from melee (but not all)
-The Cape no longer turns around people when shield cause the shield is all mighty and powerful in this game
-The Cape is shorter and feels different then the melee cape. (Not sure what it is, the reflecting doesnt feel as long or something, maybe the lag is longer or something I really don't know it just feels different)
-aerial cape extension thingy that you mentioned just aids in agressively edgeguarding people who are recoverying high, basically. just do that -> uair and it'll get'em
-Eggz
-You can cape stall pretty well (but not safely) on the edge just cape opposite of the ledge and you'll crap right back after the cape animation is done. I guess you can cape people coming to the edge like that although they have to be a certain distance or they'll sweetspot the ledge.
-Cape pivots. I think you can cape the opposite direction during the dash animation. I havnt found a real use although i havnt used it much but im sure it will come in handy for spacing or juking people to attack then you cape or something of that sorts. As far as i can tell you cant cape backwards during the actual running animation.
-Also the most useless thing i found you can cape waveland. It's absolutely pointless but kinda tricky to pull off. You just run off the edge and time it right so you cape back on the stage and you do a small little wave land while caping.
Note: You can do this with a fireball too which is also just as useless.
-So this was found by someone at SWF named ???????. It's called cape dashing i guess and you just cape at the end of the dashing animation and you get this waveland effect and it gives your cape some more range to cover. i suppose if you were to be caping a projectile too you would be closing in some distance too, The distance isnt that great but it's enough.
-Uhm... This is as much as I can remember and know. I guess I'll update and you guys should tell me what I'm missing.
V. Attack Data
Hey thought I’d do this cause I didn’t have anything else to do today…
All testing done on a level 9 stopped computer in training mode, so no damage decay.
Here’s the layout:
Attack
-Attack Description
-Range (Short, Medium, Long, (Disjointed))
-Lag/Delay (Windup/Actual Attack/Wind down), (Quick, Meh, Slow)
-Percentage of damage dealt
-Knockback trajectory
Neutral A,A,A Combo
-jab, jab, kick
-short to medium, medium, Barely more than medium
-Quick/quick/quick, quick/quick/quick, quick/quick/meh
-3%, 2%, 4%, (9% Total)
-Barely any knockback but it’s upwards I think, same as before, horizontal with some vertical
Dash attack
-a slide tackle, pretty much
-The hitbox is inside Mario, but he slides across the ground creating range… So… Long?
-Quick/Slow/quick
-9%
-Vertical
F tilt
-an extended kick infront of him
-Medium
-quick/meh/quick
8%
-Horizontal with some vertical
U tilt
-a spinning uppercut that starts infront of him, rises above his head, and ends behind him
-Short range in front and behind him, Medium above him
-quick/meh to slow/quick
7%
-vertical (Some killing potential at High Percents)
D tilt
-a leg sweep in front of him
-Medium
-quick/meh/meh
5% (7% if they’re in the air)
-Vertical
Fsmash
-Pulls back then steps forward to release a fireball explosion in front of him
-Long and disjointed (This has amazing range (And can have more if you do Gesi1223’s C-stick trick)
-quick to meh/quick/slow
Regular (No tilting)
Non-Sweetspotted
14-19%
Sweetspotted
17-23%
Tilted down(least killing potential)
Non
13%-17%
Sweet
16%-19%
Tilted up (Most Killing Potential)
Non
15%-21%
Sweet
18-25%
-The trajectory is all pretty much the same, horizontal and a little vertical, they each have different killing potentials though, might have to do with damage or could do more knockback, not sure yet.
Dsmash
-Does like a break dance leg sweep that goes around both sides of him with both legs
-medium
-quick/meh/quick
Front (More Knockback)
-15%-21%
Behind
-12%-16%
-Trajectory is pretty much the same on both sides, but the front has more knockback. (Kill move)
Usmash
-Hits people with his head
-Short from in front and behind, but Medium vertically
-quick/quick/meh
-14%- 19%
-Vertical (Kill move)
B
-Shoots out a fireball
-Projectile that shoots at a 45 degree angle and bounces
-meh/fireball travels for a while/slow (all together a good projectile that is a lot faster than melee’s delays
-5%
-not really a hit back just some hit stun
Up b
-Hit box is in Mario, but he’s quick and travels so… long
-quick/ slow/ landing lag is meh
-5%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 3%,
-diagonally up and over
Side b
-The Beloved Cape, Whips out a cape in front of him that turns people around and reflect projectiles
-just barely below medium
-quick/meh/meh
-8% (6% when youre in the air)
-No knock back just turns people around.
Down b
-Projectile
-Charge
-quick to meh/slow/quick to meh
-0%
-pushes people back like the tree blowing in Kirby 64
Nair
- The Sex kick, sticks out his foot in front of him
-Short, but the hit box is all of him pretty much
-quick/slow/quick, barely any landing lag
-10% initial, 5% after initial
-Horizontal (Kill move at higher percents)
Bair
-Does a backwards drop kick with both feet
-medium to long especially since you can travel with it
-quick/meh/quick, barely any landing lag also you can do short hop double aerials
-12%
-Horizontal with some vertical (Kill move at higher percents)
Uair
-does a bicycle kick
-medium to long
-quick/meh/quick, barely any landing lag, can do sh double aerials
-11%
-Diagonally over and upwards (some killing potential at higher percents)
Dair
-The Mario Tornado, Sticks out his fists and spins around
-Short
-quick/slow/quick kinda slow landing lag, also can do sh double aerials, but only with the uair and nair afterwards
-1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 1%, 7%
-Vertical
Fair
-Winds up for a powerful down punch to the noggin
-Short
-meh/slow/ slow tons of landing lag
Fist before it reaches horizontalness
-12 %
-diagonally up and over
The Meteor smash part
-13%
-down…
Grabs
Head bunt
-***** his head back than bashes then in the dome with his own noggin if you didn’t catch that.
-short
-slow/quick/meh
-3%
-no trajectory
F throw
-Tosses em forwards
-short with also the opponent being a projectile so projectile?
-quick to meh/quick/quick
-9%
-diagonally up and over
B throw
-The classic 64 throw with the spin and all that jazz
-I think it still knocks people with the spin around not sure but projectile of sorts
-slow/quick/quick
-12%
-diagonally up and over behind you.
D throw
-A quick throw to the ground
-short maybe projectile? Not sure im lazy
-quick/quick/quick
-6%
-vertical
U throw
-throws you up. Go figure
-short same explanation as d throw
-quick/quick/quick
-8%
-vertical
Final Smash
-Mario Finale shoots like fireballs and stuff
-huge range like infinite horizontal or something and also its big if you couldn’t tell
-slow/slow/slow
-15-40% or at least that’s the most I’ve done. If you use the final smash right next to them it does 6% dmg if you do it when they’re right behind you it does 9% and it shoots them in front of the fireballs.
-drags them with the fireballs so I guess it pushes forwards a bit?
The attacks also do weaker damage at some point when the opponent lands and misses a tech or something like that… Not sure when it is, but the dash attack does 7% during one some point when the opponent bounces or something. The fair also does 10% during the same incident.
