help playing against sheik

[APESAUCE]

ok so i was playing against a sheik/zelda main today and was noticeably ahead. then he just starts chain grabbing me. i have been chain grabbed before, but this was ridiculous. and he ends up winning. i was wondering how to get out of sheik's di trap or how to prevent it.

 

[Azureflames]

sheik DI: for her Dthrow DI away (and down?) and be ready to either get the tech or buffer roll/spotdodge the regrab
for her Bthrow, DI toward her to avoid the bair punish.

zelda DI: TBH i dont believe she has a chain grab on marth. for her throw DIs i usually do these...Dthrow = toward her, Uthrow = toward, Fthrow = up/away, Bthrow = toward

I'd make it a habit of learning the buffering input for roll or dodge (hold shield > use/hold c-stick in a direction to get first frame input)

 

[UMR | donmk]

ok so i was playing against a sheik/zelda main today and was noticeably ahead. then he just starts chain grabbing me. i have been chain grabbed before, but this was ridiculous. and he ends up winning. i was wondering how to get out of sheik's di trap or how to prevent it.

I find if I DI d-throw towards Zelda, I end up with a hefty fair to the face. But at many percents she can get the follow up on any DI, IF she can read it, so I tend to mix up the DI off d throw.

As for B throw, at high percents, you need to DI that up, because otherwise you will die.

For Sheik, once you are grabbed, you can do many things, but if she reads your DI you are going to get hit very hard. This is especially true if you cant DI on reaction to her throws. In general, @ Azureflames is correct about where to DI, but I always mix up DI so they can't be 100% sure of their next move until they see where you go, and that gives you some time to be able to act.

The thing I noticed is that you said you were noticeably ahead and then got grabbed. If you are ahead by at least one stock, you can afford to play back. At range, the only thing sheik can really do is throw needles or transform, and if she tries to come in, dtilts or ftilts (or u-airs if she is silly enough to come from above) to zone her out. It's much easier to avoid being grabbed than to get out of her grab.

 

[cisyphus]

The other nasty thing that Sheik can do is pivot grab to make your DI really difficult to utilize. Pay very careful attention to which direction Sheik is facing while throwing you. PM Sheik's biggest buff from melee is the ability to mix up grabs so easily between down and back throws—both of which are very fast and difficult to tell apart and both of which benefit greatly from the pivot grab mindgame. I'd actually recommend sitting down w/ a Sheik and grinding out the escapes, having them implement these mixups accordingly.

 

[Azureflames]

I find if I DI d-throw towards Zelda, I end up with a hefty fair to the face. But at many percents she can get the follow up on any DI, IF she can read it, so I tend to mix up the DI off d throw.

As for B throw, at high percents, you need to DI that up, because otherwise you will die.

For Sheik, once you are grabbed, you can do many things, but if she reads your DI you are going to get hit very hard. This is especially true if you cant DI on reaction to her throws. In general, @ Azureflames is correct about where to DI, but I always mix up DI so they can't be 100% sure of their next move until they see where you go, and that gives you some time to be able to act.

The thing I noticed is that you said you were noticeably ahead and then got grabbed. If you are ahead by at least one stock, you can afford to play back. At range, the only thing sheik can really do is throw needles or transform, and if she tries to come in, dtilts or ftilts (or u-airs if she is silly enough to come from above) to zone her out. It's much easier to avoid being grabbed than to get out of her grab.

I thought it was safe to assume we were talking about low percents or mid percents, not high percents. As marth vs zelda, if you are holding toward zelda when she Dthrows(throws you behind her) or Bthrows there is no way you can get hit by a fair by any means, go try it out in game (even at 0 percent i didn't see it). Especially factoring in the techroll away or toward. Other than that i would agree on zelda DI'ing up and toward her is typically the right option unless she goes for Fthrow, then you'd want to DI up and away.

 

[UMR | donmk]

Whoops, I meant bair, not fair. My b.

I believe it starts around 30-40% where d throw can lead to bair, which hurts a lot too. But maybe its been too long since I've played against a Zelda. I'll have to go try it out in game next time I see one. I always just DI'd away for safety.

 

[Azureflames]

i think we might have confusion on which direction im referring to. Maybe thats my bad, i was saying DI toward her with the frame of mind of while or before im getting grabbed i can DI toward her character frame or i can DI toward the opposite direction before being thrown. It sounds like with the Dthrow you were referring to the DI direction from a reference point as or after you were thrown.

So if i was at the very edge of the right side of FD and she grabbed me from the left side of my character, DI'ing toward her would mean DI toward the center of the stage...since Dthrow throws you behind her, you go even further toward center stage. DI'ing away from her as you get grabbed would have you closer to her character frame after the throw animation went through leaving you open to the bair.

 

[UMR | donmk]

Yeah, you are correct, we both meant the same thing but expressed it differently. I expressed DI from the point of the throw (which is AFTER she turns around during the throw) and you were expressing it from the point of grab.

I believe your way is the more accepted way to speak about DI, but I have a habit of speaking about DI from the moment that the DI becomes effective because it makes it easier in my mind.