Help My sheik please? Vs. Samus

[Van.]

I have my first tournament in two months in two days, and one of the matchups i was really struggling with that I wanted to shore up is the Samus MU. We have a ton of samii in FL, and its really frustrating to lose to them in this mu. I tried a few goofy tipper upsmashes out of dthrow, but other than that this was me and my friend giving each other our best shot. I'd love critique from someone who knows the mu/what to abuse, or just general sheik things would be nice. Thanks =)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zSQbAR8C4Q

edit: i also just wanted to say that i believe ftilt is reeeealllyy badddd against samus (and maybe in general too) or just severely overrated. it can get cc'd to infiniti and with proper DI combos into virtually nothing out of dthrow. in an unrelated note i had a samus cc my nair at 117% a few months ago. 117%!!!

 

[Jolteon]

You need to work on your OOS options a lot, shielding is so good against Samus too.

 

[DualCats]

Sheik vs Samus can be a lot more frustrating than a lot of people understand. Samus has a lot of options for out-ranging Sheik and can CC very effectively. I might be back to elaborate when I'm more sober and less tired but there were some things I noticed from that video.

Samus can very easily deal with obvious approaches because of the effectiveness of her wavedash > tilts and her ability to cc. You didn't really make much of an attempt to mix-up or conceal you approach and there were times where you'd just run in and get punished for obvious attempts at grabbing or sh fairs. Don't be afraid to stay in shield. It's pretty easy to read samus' grabs as an approach mix-up and it's also pretty easy to react to her grab before it comes out. Tilts are useful in this matchup but they should be used sparingly. That is to say, approaching with tilts is generally a bad idea but they're useful for dealing with Samus' approach. You could also step up your needle game. Needles are an awesome way to discourage camping and for trying to force Samus to approach. Being in a good stage position with Samus approaching you is the ideal way to try to play this matchup imo.
Also, you should really start needling more when samus is off-stage. Jumping out with a fair is just really easy to react to. I saw you using bairs on stage but they're even sexier off-stage. Get used to needle cancel > bairs if you're not already. Additionally, your approach seemed pretty aggressive and frantic and it didn't look like you were making a conscious attempt at spacing. You missed some grabs that should have been pretty free. Spacing fairs correctly at moderately high percent can push Samus too far a way to punish even if she CCs it. (But don't get too reliant on that; it's very exploitable. Especially if it's the only thing you try.)

also, I didn't see this Samus trying it but it's pretty common for Samus players to spam spot-dodge. dsmash will tear right through that ****. It's especially good on the edge of the stage if you can bait it because dsmash is an awesome way to get Samus off stage for needling.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm horrible vs Samus so I can't help you.

 

[Van.]

Sheik vs Samus can be a lot more frustrating than a lot of people understand. Samus has a lot of options for out-ranging Sheik and can CC very effectively. I might be back to elaborate when I'm more sober and less tired but there were some things I noticed from that video.

Samus can very easily deal with obvious approaches because of the effectiveness of her wavedash > tilts and her ability to cc. You didn't really make much of an attempt to mix-up or conceal you approach and there were times where you'd just run in and get punished for obvious attempts at grabbing or sh fairs. Don't be afraid to stay in shield. It's pretty easy to read samus' grabs as an approach mix-up and it's also pretty easy to react to her grab before it comes out. Tilts are useful in this matchup but they should be used sparingly. That is to say, approaching with tilts is generally a bad idea but they're useful for dealing with Samus' approach. You could also step up your needle game. Needles are an awesome way to discourage camping and for trying to force Samus to approach. Being in a good stage position with Samus approaching you is the ideal way to try to play this matchup imo.
Also, you should really start needling more when samus is off-stage. Jumping out with a fair is just really easy to react to. I saw you using bairs on stage but they're even sexier off-stage. Get used to needle cancel > bairs if you're not already. Additionally, your approach seemed pretty aggressive and frantic and it didn't look like you were making a conscious attempt at spacing. You missed some grabs that should have been pretty free. Spacing fairs correctly at moderately high percent can push Samus too far a way to punish even if she CCs it. (But don't get too reliant on that; it's very exploitable. Especially if it's the only thing you try.)

also, I didn't see this Samus trying it but it's pretty common for Samus players to spam spot-dodge. dsmash will tear right through that ****. It's especially good on the edge of the stage if you can bait it because dsmash is an awesome way to get Samus off stage for needling.

Omg you're the best! It feels like you elaborated already, haha. I didn't realize i was missing grabs at all. And yeah, i definently need to play more patiently, the samus pressure causes me to make dumb approaches.

I'm horrible vs Samus so I can't help you.

 

[bubbaking]

Watched your vid, and here's what I have to say. Take from it what you will:

Be wary about using dash attack against Samus until she's pretty high in %'s. That's one of the easiest moves for Samus to punish. Samuses should NOT be dsmashing your shield. Punish that crap. I think Sheik's jab is fast enough to stuff any of Samus's jab stuff, but in return Samus can just CC that, so it's probaby better to block or roll away. Basically, be very aware that Samus can CC a surprising amount of stuff, but don't be AFRAID of it. Many times, the Samus will be banking on CCing as many of your attacks as possible. Take advantage of this and grab them. You can fair the missiles but that's probably not a feasible thing to do often. As long as they're not low missiles, you can crouch them. On top of that, Sheik's needle camping is so good against Samus cuz it stuffs all of Samus's projectiles, including a fully charged shot. In fact, just recently I took out a fully charged shot w/ ONE needle! O_O Surprisingly, Samus's fair can be CC'd and punished in between hits, but i'm not sure at which %'s this would stop working. There's almost no need to ftilt or usmash a Samus out of dthrow. I'm pretty sure that dthrow>fair/uair (DI dependent) is a true combo on all relevant %'s over 30%. As DualCats said, needles are pretty good at stuffing recoveries. Offstage bairs from the ledge are great at eating up grapples before they come out.

All in all, you should be winning this. IMO, this is Samus's worst MU and most Samuses will def agree that it's in her top 5 worst along w/ Falcon and Jiggs.

 

[Van.]

Watched your vid, and here's what I have to say. Take from it what you will:

Be wary about using dash attack against Samus until she's pretty high in %'s. That's one of the easiest moves for Samus to punish. Samuses should NOT be dsmashing your shield. Punish that crap. I think Sheik's jab is fast enough to stuff any of Samus's jab stuff, but in return Samus can just CC that, so it's probaby better to block or roll away. Basically, be very aware that Samus can CC a surprising amount of stuff, but don't be AFRAID of it. Many times, the Samus will be banking on CCing as many of your attacks as possible. Take advantage of this and grab them. You can fair the missiles but that's probably not a feasible thing to do often. As long as they're not low missiles, you can crouch them. On top of that, Sheik's needle camping is so good against Samus cuz it stuffs all of Samus's projectiles, including a fully charged shot. In fact, just recently I took out a fully charged shot w/ ONE needle! O_O Surprisingly, Samus's fair can be CC'd and punished in between hits, but i'm not sure at which %'s this would stop working. There's almost no need to ftilt or usmash a Samus out of dthrow. I'm pretty sure that dthrow>fair/uair (DI dependent) is a true combo on all relevant %'s over 30%. As DualCats said, needles are pretty good at stuffing recoveries. Offstage bairs from the ledge are great at eating up grapples before they come out.

All in all, you should be winning this. IMO, this is Samus's worst MU and most Samuses will def agree that it's in her top 5 worst along w/ Falcon and Jiggs.

Dash attack against samus leads to nothing at high percents, and can he CC's below that.
I was trying the usmashes to get early ko's which would have been preferable to fairs, and tilts at lower % to rack up damage. Recently, I've been thinking that starting your combo with dthrow-->aerial is better than dthrow--> tilt at low % (when they DI away).

The samus fair from ledge CC thing doesn't really work, haha. they can shield after if you CC and ****.

Thanks for the advice man

 

[bubbaking]

No problem! I hope it helped and I apologize if any of my info was erroneous. About the fair, I was using it against a Marth once and he countered me in the MIDDLE of the move while ALL the hits were connecting. (O_O) It may not have been a CC, but I assumed it was. As for dash attack, the reason I would still use it (at high %'s, of course) is that it would put me in a largely favorable position to finally net the kill. At such high damage, it's kinda hard to combo Samus (even w/ dthrow when she's really high in %), so having her above me really helps at that point, especially since Samus's priority below her in the air really sucks. Btw, a nice little trick for racking up damage on Samus at low %'s is dthrow>fair>regrab>dthrow>fair, rinse and repeat. It's not guaranteed, but it usually works pretty well for me.

 

[DualCats]

Omg you're the best! It feels like you elaborated already, haha. I didn't realize i was missing grabs at all. And yeah, i definently need to play more patiently, the samus pressure causes me to make dumb approaches.

hah, thanks. :3 I ended up writing a lot more than I generally anticipated but whatever.

Some other general matchup advice I feel I should impart: learn to exploit Samus' CC attempts. She can't CC a grab and is generally extremely vulnerable to this. Easy ways to accomplish this include empty sh > boost-grab and/or wavelanding forward unexpectedly, fully or partially charged needles to grab etc. Be creative with it.

Try not to let Samus get directly below you. Her uair can chew through pretty much anything you have from that position.

Don't try to challenge her up-b with dsmash or tilts. Or, realistically, anything that isn't disjointed. If she's recovering, try to get the ledge first and read her recovery. grapples can be reaction bair'd easily enough. It's nice to force her to land on the stage because it's essentially a free fair or grab. Use discretion when refreshing your ledge invincibility because Samus can be tricky but if you time it correctly, you can just nair/fair through her up-b and this usually stage spikes. Walljump fairs (or needles, even) are dangerous and situational (and generally flashier than they are useful) but still have some utility. Samus players seem to like to try to air dodge back to the stage so don't get too frisky with your fairs and dsmashes and learn to be patient and react. If her dodge was spaced or timed poorly enough, you can wavedash into tipper usmash. This is very sexy and I highly recommend it.

Later, I might to try write up some info on getting back from the ledge because that can actually be pretty difficult. Especially against a Samus with a smart grab game.

Btw, a nice little trick for racking up damage on Samus at low %'s is dthrow>fair>regrab>dthrow>fair, rinse and repeat. It's not guaranteed, but it usually works pretty well for me.

This. <3 Doesn't work too often on Samus players who know the matchup but I still pull this off against my roommate occasionally. Plus, there's very little that can go wrong: if you see the chance to grab, ****ing go for it.

 

[Vionce]

I was trying the usmashes to get early ko's which would have been preferable to fairs,

i think uair is guaranteed no matter what DI.

 

[Van.]

No problem! I hope it helped and I apologize if any of my info was erroneous. About the fair, I was using it against a Marth once and he countered me in the MIDDLE of the move while ALL the hits were connecting. (O_O) It may not have been a CC, but I assumed it was. As for dash attack, the reason I would still use it (at high %'s, of course) is that it would put me in a largely favorable position to finally net the kill. At such high damage, it's kinda hard to combo Samus (even w/ dthrow when she's really high in %), so having her above me really helps at that point, especially since Samus's priority below her in the air really sucks. Btw, a nice little trick for racking up damage on Samus at low %'s is dthrow>fair>regrab>dthrow>fair, rinse and repeat. It's not guaranteed, but it usually works pretty well for me.

I've never thought of her above me as a favorable position, uairs and bairs are nearly impossible to land through bombs i fear. I'm probably (definently) just bad tho' lol

And thats a dope pseudo combo idead, I'll definently have to try that one out

hah, thanks. :3 I ended up writing a lot more than I generally anticipated but whatever.

Some other general matchup advice I feel I should impart: learn to exploit Samus' CC attempts. She can't CC a grab and is generally extremely vulnerable to this. Easy ways to accomplish this include empty sh > boost-grab and/or wavelanding forward unexpectedly, fully or partially charged needles to grab etc. Be creative with it.

Try not to let Samus get directly below you. Her uair can chew through pretty much anything you have from that position.

Don't try to challenge her up-b with dsmash or tilts. Or, realistically, anything that isn't disjointed. If she's recovering, try to get the ledge first and read her recovery. grapples can be reaction bair'd easily enough. It's nice to force her to land on the stage because it's essentially a free fair or grab. Use discretion when refreshing your ledge invincibility because Samus can be tricky but if you time it correctly, you can just nair/fair through her up-b and this usually stage spikes. Walljump fairs (or needles, even) are dangerous and situational (and generally flashier than they are useful) but still have some utility. Samus players seem to like to try to air dodge back to the stage so don't get too frisky with your fairs and dsmashes and learn to be patient and react. If her dodge was spaced or timed poorly enough, you can wavedash into tipper usmash. This is very sexy and I highly recommend it.

Later, I might to try write up some info on getting back from the ledge because that can actually be pretty difficult. Especially against a Samus with a smart grab game.



This. <3 Doesn't work too often on Samus players who know the matchup but I still pull this off against my roommate occasionally. Plus, there's very little that can go wrong: if you see the chance to grab, ****ing go for it.

i think uair is guaranteed no matter what DI.

? tipper upsmash has more knockback than upair, and thusly would kill at earlier percents

 

[bubbaking]

So how did the tourney go?

 

[Van.]

Ughh I'm salty.

There was 25 entrants, swiss, then a 12 man bracket, and i was one game away from making bracket. lost 2-1 to a fox player in the fifth round I got 18th.

then in amateur bracket i went 1-2, losing 2-1 to two spacy players again. I hate fox.
thanks for asking man

 

[bubbaking]

What does swiss mean? Also, did you ever get to fight any Sheiks? Don't feel too bad. It actually sounds like you did pretty well.

 

[Van.]

swiss is from chess.

Five rounds of play, the first based on seeding points and the next four you're randomly paired with someone elose with your same record.

I got to fight one sheik. We were 1-1 before he switched. FLs main (only?) problem is the lack of sheiks

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, one could figure that if a Samus is dominating part of the scene over there. Lolz, it's hard to tell so long after the fact, but I think meant to ask if you played any Samuses at the tourney, not Sheiks. XD

 

[Van.]

oh lol, well no, I didn't play my crewmate in tourney, pi had to work, and idk but plup has missed the last two locals :/

 

[bubbaking]

I see... Darn.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you're gonna for for janky regrabs at super low %s I recommend

d-throw --> FJ fair --> falling needle --> regrab

 

[bubbaking]

Interesting... So I guess you hit Samus w/ fair while rising?

 

[Van.]

I saw m2k do that to peach, so itd prob work on samus too.

samus does tend out of everything tho... i wonder if that would disrupt it.

 

[bubbaking]

I saw m2k do that to peach, so itd prob work on samus too.

samus does tend out of everything tho... i wonder if that would disrupt it.

"Tend out of everything?" What does that mean? :/

 

[Van.]

that was weird. it was meant to say bomb out of everything

 

[bubbaking]

Samus can't avoid the fair from dthrow by bombing. Only DI can spare her, and even then, she's still probably gonna get hit.

 

[Van.]

I was talking about the crazy fair needle regrab. I'm well aware dthrow fair works on samus :D

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I can't say since I've never done this combo, but I'd assume it's some kind of frame-trap at lower %'s rather than being a true combo. I don't think Samus can just bomb out of it, though. Needles pierce bombs, which is why Sheik is one of the few chars that can gimp Samus somewhat more easily than most. At higher %'s, maybe the hitstun from fair is enough to guarantee needles? Idk.

 

[NewJerusalem]

You've probably already know this but here are the simple things to win against Samus. No info is 100% due to random factors. However you can use this to the best of your ability and improve.

First Tip: Abuse Samus' design.

When she hits a shield she is laggy! At close range she is never safe, so grab her out of lag. The only safe moves she has on shield I believe is jab locking and you can just roll/WD etc.

Second Tip: Grab

Grab -> DThrow -> Fair (Rinse and Repeat)

Seriously, this ***** her. Avoid Jab, Dash Attack and Tilts (Unless she's in the air)

Third Tip: Edgeguarding

When she's recovering off the sides shoot A LOT of needles to hit her bombs and when shes near stage shoot more needles to interrupt grapple. If you think they are going to sweetspot edge with UPB, grab the edge. If they're already on the edge let her go. No need to risk death.

Fourth Tip: Zoning War

If shes shooting a lot of missiles shoot needles, this should interrupt her timing just enough to close some distance.

Fifth Tip: Defense

If Samus is moving around a lot, don't worry. Her moveset is pretty linear, she has to be nearby to inflict any real damage. Block or spot dodge accordingly then grab.

Sixth Tip: DI

Please DI up and in. If you get hit by her you will die if you don't properly DI. Also if you think you're going to get hit by her down smash if you DI up and in you will go more vertical than horizontal. If you don't learn to DI you will die.

That's all I know so far.

 

[bubbaking]

Yo, be careful about the info you give out. I am a Samus main, so I'm gonna correct you on a few things here.

You've probably already know this but here are the simple things to win against Samus. No info is 100% due to random factors. However you can use this to the best of your ability and improve.

First Tip: Abuse Samus' design.

When she hits a shield she is laggy! At close range she is never safe, so grab her out of lag. The only safe moves she has on shield I believe is jab locking and you can just roll/WD etc.

Samus' spaced ftilts and utilts are safe on shield. To punish ftilt, you have to force a misspace or get around it. As for utilt, you can punish the startup.

Third Tip: Edgeguarding

When she's recovering off the sides shoot A LOT of needles to hit her bombs and when shes near stage shoot more needles to interrupt grapple. If you think they are going to sweetspot edge with UPB, grab the edge. If they're already on the edge let her go. No need to risk death.

No, don't just let her go. When Samus is on the edge, Sheik has an extremely large advantage. Samus's ledge options are pretty bad. Jumping straight from the ledge is probably her worst, followed by rolling on. Her best options are usually ledgehop>fair/nair/uair and ledgehop>WL>shield/dsmash/etc. Position yourself and punish accordingly.

Fifth Tip: Defense

If Samus is moving around a lot, don't worry. Her moveset is pretty linear, she has to be nearby to inflict any real damage. Block or spot dodge accordingly then grab.

Pretty linear, huh? Next thing you know, you're gonna say that Samuses never grab, right? Block/spot dodge>grab won't do anything against Samus's truly safe moves, a.k.a. ftilt and utilt, and if you've truly been conditioned to shield everything than Samus WILL grab as a mixup. (-_-)

 

[NewJerusalem]

Yo, be careful about the info you give out. I am a Samus main, so I'm gonna correct you on a few things here.



Samus' spaced ftilts and utilts are safe on shield. To punish ftilt, you have to force a misspace or get around it. As for utilt, you can punish the startup.

I'm assuming you didn't read the part where I said close ranged. Almost any spaced move in game is really difficult to punish or impossible. Spacing is key. I said to get close to Samus. Once she hits your shield, it's over if she isn't spaced.

Regarding Utilt startup I wouldn't recommend punishing start up lag, it's better to wait it out first. Only if you really guess the Utilt.

No, don't just let her go. When Samus is on the edge, Sheik has an extremely large advantage. Samus's ledge options are pretty bad. Jumping straight from the ledge is probably her worst, followed by rolling on. Her best options are usually ledgehop>fair/nair/uair and ledgehop>WL>shield/dsmash/etc. Position yourself and punish accordingly.

I agree with you but maybe I've should of clarified.

Instead of just continually attacking Samus while she's on edge just wait her out. She has options and mixups on edge. I play against a high level Samus a lot. She may have few options against sheik but that doesn't stop her from mixing up what she does.

Be close but not too close.

Pretty linear, huh? Next thing you know, you're gonna say that Samuses never grab, right? Block/spot dodge>grab won't do anything against Samus's truly safe moves, a.k.a. ftilt and utilt, and if you've truly been conditioned to shield everything than Samus WILL grab as a mixup. (-_-)

You assume I don't know about grab mixups? Instead of assuming what I am going to say, maybe you should think of my experience against her. I am very aware of Samus' grab mixups and I have constantly been exposed to then.

Her 'safe' moves are very punishable if you aren't getting punished then everyone you're playing is playing the match up wrong. Wait, not even. If someone is trying to punish your spaced moves, then that's just a failure on their part.

Example: Sheik's F-tilt spaced is safe regarding certain characters, however her safety is compromised when it's mis-spaced.

The match-up is simple: Force a mispace-> Grab-> Fair is all you really have to do. If you can at later percents or if you are confident you can link Fairs into more Fairs till death. Even a truly spaced Fair on a CC samus is safe.

There is a reason Samus isn't higher on the tier's list. Her moves aren't safe they are laggy.


A quote from our very own KirbyKaze : What is overrated about Samus?

Quote from Stevo: The reality of Samus' tilt

M2K vs Hugs


Look how often M2K is running up and shielding and look at 4:10 to see M2K punish a decently spaced F-tilt.

 

[bubbaking]

Regarding Utilt startup I wouldn't recommend punishing start up lag, it's better to wait it out first. Only if you really guess the Utilt.

Well, Samus's utilt has less lag than ftilt. If you let it finish, it will probably be extremely difficult to punish (even if misspaced). Utilt is sometimes Samus's answer for an opponent she knows is trying to close in.

There is a reason Samus isn't higher on the tier's list. Her moves aren't safe they are laggy.

Actually, I believe that Samus should be higher on the tier list, above Ganon at least. The current one is all the way from 2010, so it isn't up to date with today's metagame yet. She has all the tools to be a good char. 3rd heaviest char, 2nd best recovery, good speed for her weight, etc. Samus's moves aren't laggy. Samus's ftilt has less lag and is safer when spaced than Sheik's and her utilt is even safer after it's come out. Even her 2 relevant smashes are fast and non-laggy. In any case, they're much less laggy than Sheik's. All three of Sheik's smashes are, like, the laggiest things in the planet (obviously an exaggeration, but you get the idea).

 

[McNinja]

oh lol, well no, I didn't play my crewmate in tourney, pi had to work, and idk but plup has missed the last two locals :/

It makes me sad being the only Samus main there anymore

 

[bubbaking]

Well, now it's time to prove yourself and shine!