AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
Anything I need to know? Is there a legit cg on them etc. I havent checked anything so im only playing Ike with my Brawl experience which isn't enough but I'm very smart. How do tou fight these ****s lmao.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Help me overcome fox/falco
- Thread starter AllyKnight
- Start date
NameChange
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- May 3, 2012
- Messages
- 217
All I can say for Falco is to keep spacing well against him, if he lands a hit on you, there goes your stock. Use your big sword's ramge to get at Falco and power shield his lasers (or try to).
Can't say anything for Fox since I do well against him (at least in my area).
Can't say anything for Fox since I do well against him (at least in my area).
Last edited:
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I don't know if I'm happy or concerned to see that you hate Falco as much as I do, heh.
There is a legit chaingrab on spacies. Uthrow can CG Fox and Falco from 0-60% and you can get a good aerial out of it towards the end as well, like bair if they're close to the edge and you want to send them off, or Nair to continue a combo. Perfecting this is probably key to fighting them, since dying off one grab is a real possibility for the spacie.
Fox is actually the easier match-up, here, in my opinion. He can tack on a lot of percent, combo and waveshine Ike like crazy and Shine spike you to close to the stage, but at least his projectile doesn't have hitstun. Since he can't stuff QD from range you have most of your options available to you. You'll want to be playing super dash-dance bros at an adeqate distance from him, about an uncharged QD length away. QD -> Wavedash back is excellent for baiting reactions to punish and grabs are usually the best thing to go for out of QD in the match-up.
Falco is the real tough nut to crack because of how he stuffs Quick Draw with that damn laser. Wavedashing out of shield and powershields are your best option here. Counter can be situationally useful if you read that Falco is approaching with a laser, but for a Falco hopping away, well, it's a bad idea. You really want to work on and hone your defensive game versus Falco.
That's really all I have for specific stuff on them. I will also add that you might want to work on your edgeguarding, I've seen you miss a couple that were just barely spaced wrong and that would have gotten you a stock. With both spacies, but Falco in particular, it's usually a simple case of "Side-B if above the stage, Up-B if below". Dair is unfortunately subpar for edgeguarding them because it's pretty hard to space on Up-B without taking a hit and doesn't come out super fast. Jumping out with a nair while they're offstage is usually enough to put them in a bad spot, as it covers a lot of options, and in Falco's case can lead to death easily enough if you hit. Nair to cover the ledge if you think they might side-B, QD -> Nair straight at them while they're in their Up-B flames, or walk-off fair if they're close to the stage and below the ledge line. But practice your edgueguarding more (and don't go for counter too much, it doesn't work on Side-B since they move so fast and the spacies have an easy time sweet-spotting Up-B and avoiding the counter. Counter works pretty well on Roy, though!)
The stages you want are probably a mixed bag. Warioware and GHZ are probably really good for you - Warioware lets you avoid Shine Spiking Shenanigans with Walljumps while also letting opening up movement options for you, wavelanding on the platforms to navigate around Falco's lasers. Fox's Up-Smash is something to watch out for, but outright killing the spacies into the horizontal blast zones is easier too. GHZ has a high ceiling, walls and is small like Warioware to prevent run-away and laser shenanigans, or at least let you control space a bit better. You can also possibly chaingrab if the platform is not close enough for the spacie to DI and try and tech towards, and you can probably prevent platform landing attempts by throwing in a pummel. Perhaps your best stage for dealing with Spacies.
Fountain of Dreams is good too - Blink has a video demonstrating how low Ike can go and still get back with wall-jumps. The moving platforms can get annoying, but can be useful and enable chaingrabs when they go away. It is also a smaller stage to control space and prevent camp. Final Destination is final destination, chaingrab spacies to 60% for free and knock them off while being able to walljump here too, just being slightly harder. Recovery tip: Save your double jump, it can be used after QD walljumping and be useful for stalling or otherwise mixing up your recovery. Avoid Pokemon Stadium 2 against Fox because ceiling, against Falco, the platforms can provide some breathing room to navigate around lasers and you can CG a few times in the center. Avoid Smashville because the moving platforms can give the spacie an extra recovery option that you don't want them to have. Experiment with the other stages, I hear Lylat can be useful as well because it's hard for spacies to recover there due to the ledge shape (but Ike can recover just fine). Skyloft's slope can be useful for tripping up camping playstyles, using the slope and high platforms to avoid lasers and force an approach. If you can get comfortable with this stage, I suggest you go for it, especially since the chaingrab could still work here and the platforms are too high to tech on. (I haven't experimented.) Skyworld gives spacies too many recovery options with those awkwardly placed clouds, but it is small and the CG can work here too. Battlefield is excellent in my opinion: If your movement and wavelands are crisp, you can run around spacies pretty well. No CG, but it's a good neutral. Ike doesn't do as well on Yoshi's Story as Marth does. Yoshi's Story (Brawl) is good though: Walljumps and center platform to move around, but no CG. Offstage platform might help spacie recover, too. As I said, experiment and see how it goes.
There is a legit chaingrab on spacies. Uthrow can CG Fox and Falco from 0-60% and you can get a good aerial out of it towards the end as well, like bair if they're close to the edge and you want to send them off, or Nair to continue a combo. Perfecting this is probably key to fighting them, since dying off one grab is a real possibility for the spacie.
Fox is actually the easier match-up, here, in my opinion. He can tack on a lot of percent, combo and waveshine Ike like crazy and Shine spike you to close to the stage, but at least his projectile doesn't have hitstun. Since he can't stuff QD from range you have most of your options available to you. You'll want to be playing super dash-dance bros at an adeqate distance from him, about an uncharged QD length away. QD -> Wavedash back is excellent for baiting reactions to punish and grabs are usually the best thing to go for out of QD in the match-up.
Falco is the real tough nut to crack because of how he stuffs Quick Draw with that damn laser. Wavedashing out of shield and powershields are your best option here. Counter can be situationally useful if you read that Falco is approaching with a laser, but for a Falco hopping away, well, it's a bad idea. You really want to work on and hone your defensive game versus Falco.
That's really all I have for specific stuff on them. I will also add that you might want to work on your edgeguarding, I've seen you miss a couple that were just barely spaced wrong and that would have gotten you a stock. With both spacies, but Falco in particular, it's usually a simple case of "Side-B if above the stage, Up-B if below". Dair is unfortunately subpar for edgeguarding them because it's pretty hard to space on Up-B without taking a hit and doesn't come out super fast. Jumping out with a nair while they're offstage is usually enough to put them in a bad spot, as it covers a lot of options, and in Falco's case can lead to death easily enough if you hit. Nair to cover the ledge if you think they might side-B, QD -> Nair straight at them while they're in their Up-B flames, or walk-off fair if they're close to the stage and below the ledge line. But practice your edgueguarding more (and don't go for counter too much, it doesn't work on Side-B since they move so fast and the spacies have an easy time sweet-spotting Up-B and avoiding the counter. Counter works pretty well on Roy, though!)
The stages you want are probably a mixed bag. Warioware and GHZ are probably really good for you - Warioware lets you avoid Shine Spiking Shenanigans with Walljumps while also letting opening up movement options for you, wavelanding on the platforms to navigate around Falco's lasers. Fox's Up-Smash is something to watch out for, but outright killing the spacies into the horizontal blast zones is easier too. GHZ has a high ceiling, walls and is small like Warioware to prevent run-away and laser shenanigans, or at least let you control space a bit better. You can also possibly chaingrab if the platform is not close enough for the spacie to DI and try and tech towards, and you can probably prevent platform landing attempts by throwing in a pummel. Perhaps your best stage for dealing with Spacies.
Fountain of Dreams is good too - Blink has a video demonstrating how low Ike can go and still get back with wall-jumps. The moving platforms can get annoying, but can be useful and enable chaingrabs when they go away. It is also a smaller stage to control space and prevent camp. Final Destination is final destination, chaingrab spacies to 60% for free and knock them off while being able to walljump here too, just being slightly harder. Recovery tip: Save your double jump, it can be used after QD walljumping and be useful for stalling or otherwise mixing up your recovery. Avoid Pokemon Stadium 2 against Fox because ceiling, against Falco, the platforms can provide some breathing room to navigate around lasers and you can CG a few times in the center. Avoid Smashville because the moving platforms can give the spacie an extra recovery option that you don't want them to have. Experiment with the other stages, I hear Lylat can be useful as well because it's hard for spacies to recover there due to the ledge shape (but Ike can recover just fine). Skyloft's slope can be useful for tripping up camping playstyles, using the slope and high platforms to avoid lasers and force an approach. If you can get comfortable with this stage, I suggest you go for it, especially since the chaingrab could still work here and the platforms are too high to tech on. (I haven't experimented.) Skyworld gives spacies too many recovery options with those awkwardly placed clouds, but it is small and the CG can work here too. Battlefield is excellent in my opinion: If your movement and wavelands are crisp, you can run around spacies pretty well. No CG, but it's a good neutral. Ike doesn't do as well on Yoshi's Story as Marth does. Yoshi's Story (Brawl) is good though: Walljumps and center platform to move around, but no CG. Offstage platform might help spacie recover, too. As I said, experiment and see how it goes.
And on a side note, I really enjoy watching your Ike and think you're really good for the amount of time you've put in. I'm pretty sure with enough practice you can figure this match-up out as well.
Y-L
Smash Champion
How can you stay spaced against Falco without getting laser spammed to hell I'm sure Falco is glad to keep his distance from Ike considering powershielding his lasers is no easy feat.
Last edited:
Gamma-Rayz
Smash Rookie
I'm not really that versed with this matchup, however; I think the biggest factor that helps against them is the player's attitude, I used to get annoyed whenever someone chose fox or falco before but now, I try to make them go to those two. why? because I feel that, no matter the pressure they put on, one grab is all it takes to start racking up damage or to even end the stock.
fox and falco players either play hit and run or extremely aggressive, the latter being kinda easier to deal with because you can make them slip up when they realize its not easy to get in and stay close to ike.
ike's jabs really help here if you poke with them, jab-DD-jab/grab
after chain grabbing them to 40-50% you can almost always up-smash, look where they DI'd then jump after them,:
1) if they DI away from you, jump and fair (will be hard to do at higher percentages)
2) if they DI towards you, jump nair and go after them OR try to go for a sour spot uair cuz you can get in another one if you fast fall and L-cancel then fair em
the most important part is to "obviously" gimp them whenever you can ad always try to keep them from returning to the stage.
if at any time they are below the level of the ledge try to gimp them with nair because it sends them flying horizontally and it stays active for a decent amount of time.
As I said, I dont really know how to completely negate them but Ike has a great time comboing and edge-guarding them.
On a side note tho, I find it extremely satisfying when I hear Ike's heavy moves make contact with them in a combo lol
fox and falco players either play hit and run or extremely aggressive, the latter being kinda easier to deal with because you can make them slip up when they realize its not easy to get in and stay close to ike.
ike's jabs really help here if you poke with them, jab-DD-jab/grab
after chain grabbing them to 40-50% you can almost always up-smash, look where they DI'd then jump after them,:
1) if they DI away from you, jump and fair (will be hard to do at higher percentages)
2) if they DI towards you, jump nair and go after them OR try to go for a sour spot uair cuz you can get in another one if you fast fall and L-cancel then fair em
the most important part is to "obviously" gimp them whenever you can ad always try to keep them from returning to the stage.
if at any time they are below the level of the ledge try to gimp them with nair because it sends them flying horizontally and it stays active for a decent amount of time.
As I said, I dont really know how to completely negate them but Ike has a great time comboing and edge-guarding them.
On a side note tho, I find it extremely satisfying when I hear Ike's heavy moves make contact with them in a combo lol
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
Yeah I heard he just cged him. Ill train tomorrow n friday. Ill read everyone's post n see if there's anything I can learn. Much thx wow such support
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
Yeah I'm pretty sure Ike can 0-death them both on FD from a grab. If they go to a plat you can just do sh nair from below, it's really good. Big problem is how absolutely overwhelming they are in neutral. :/
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Falling Nair might be okay at least on Falco because it's a little hard to respond to but it's also easy to punish the endlag as well. I love finishing UThrow CGs into Bair just because the angle it sends them at makes it really easy for Ike to edgeguard them at that point. I'm still trying to work out this matchup as well, especially Fox of which ironically I haven't played very much against (barely any FL PM plays Fox). I can't think of any obvious stage picks to help but WarioWare may allow you to better threaten their space with Fair more. I feel like Ike has little trouble responding to spacies' recoveries so getting them offstage would be priority number 1.
Again, I still need a lot of work on this but that's my thoughts on the matter.
Again, I still need a lot of work on this but that's my thoughts on the matter.
Last edited:
If you throw them onto a platform the following tech chase is very important. At some what higher mid-percents Nair to FF L-cancel can combo into another Nair, Although your best bet is to bair them in a direction off the stage and try to edge guard them since They really do have predictable recoveries that aren't too hard for Ike to cover.
Mister Doctor Samurai
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2013
- Messages
- 2
So, I understand that I'm a little late to the party, but the chaingrab i typically do is U-throw>35%ish then you get U-throw>sweetspot U-tilt>regrab, and from there I usually U-throw>F-air/B-air. the cool part about F-airing is that you can choose between the reverse hitbox or the normal hitbox, so you can catch an opponent with bad DI. Note that the U-tilt has to be sweetspotted, or else they go to far forward to really get anything but a tech chase, and you can't really cover the tech away option.
Y-L
Smash Champion
I've found that uthrow at ~60 percent on spacies is like a confirmed DACUS (not quickdraw->usmash)
Quaza
Smash Cadet
U-throw Chaingrab is essential against spacies. I suggest taking them to PS2 personally. I haven't lost to a fox and I took a game off of Soft's Falco and he is much better than me. Ike can destroy spacies. Against Falco, WD OoS actually is that good. It works against Link and Tink but Falco has far more stage control. The key to beating Falco is using platforms. U-Air does a lot of work for getting regrabs and tech chasing on plats. Also, using plats to avoid the lasers and using falling aerials can lead to a lot of options. Seriously though, U-Air is amazing against spacies. It sets up so many follow-ups and hits at a more consistent angle than N-air.
PyroTakun
Smash Journeyman
Lordling pretty much covered everything. I'm not too familiar with the MUs myself, but from what I've experienced it's pretty even. They're combo food for you, and you're combo food for them.
CGs for early percents and don't get hit.
CGs for early percents and don't get hit.