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Help me not suck

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,224
Location
Claremont, CA
I got a few sets recorded at a tournament last week and I want criticism.

Vs. Tofu

I generally don't have too much trouble with Falcos, but I'm sure I'm still doing plenty of things wrong, so let me know, lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg_zknXxANU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XrHQXdZCUg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO9a9PfdiBk&feature=related

Vs. Lucky

Ever since I started going to tournaments, Lucky has always beaten me worse than anybody else in SoCal. I have Fox problems in general, too, so of the three match-ups shown in these videos, this is the one I need the most help with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYsIxngXKeQ&feature=related :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sw9c26-hYk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opIjZShrwXg&feature=related

Vs. Mango

The little list of tips against Falcon that Wobbles posted in another thread was helpful, but I'm still very concerned about this match-up, as I've always had problems with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idOD5Jl5tHM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE2jUfRXGN0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8QZv4F9ITg&feature=related

Any advice is appreciated!
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
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1) You don't suck.
2) Hooray! Up-throw forward-smash!

Hmm... Lucky clearly has the IC matchup well in his head, so it's not any shame to be losing to him. But obviously you want to win, so I'll try to focus on that.

Fighting Fox is a lot like fighting Peach in that a lot of the time your punishment openings are just illusions. Fox is not open very often, but the desire to stop his offense is really strong; you've got to resist the temptation to attack whenever you think there's an opening. Pressure that opening but don't commit (since it doesn't exist) and bait a response. Punish that instead.

Also, try not to be above him, ever, if you have a say in the matter. Spaced b-air and f-air is fine while falling, but it's really situational and if Fox has time to move around he can dash dance camp and regain ground momentum. Overall, stay low.

Also, hit down the moment you fall off the ledge from being shined; you'll grab it right away (even if you get shined near it) and you can start retaliating when Fox follows up. If he runs off to gimp Nana, you could probably just hit him; at any rate, it's better than being shined.

Also, for fast fallers I prefer b-throw or u-throw with SoPo. B-throw has better tech chasing (IMO) and u-throw lets you smash, dash attack or chase around platforms, and when fresh it does 11 damage, which is better than the 5 you get from d-throw and b-throw. B-throw is harder to react to and certain DIs make it harder to tech, which lets you wavedash jab or d-smash. If you grab in the middle of the level, forcing the enemy near the edge, especially a fast faller, gives you a really big advantage from a grab.

And since we're talking about grabbing, when you have an opening (especially when sync'ed), grab grab grab. If you grab Falcon near the edge, he should die. If he's at 80 when recovering and lands on the stage, unless you're SoPo or you're terribly de-synced, you need to grab. Even if you don't CG, a fully charged d-throw f-smash does more than a d-smash and has more knockback, so it's always worth it.

U-air b-air is very situational; you try to use it a lot, but it requires hitting with the end of u-air. Against fast fallers at mid-percent you probably want to u-air d-air or u-air into falling u-air--they combo better and tend to have better follow up.

The shield-belay edgehog is really cool looking and lets you stay on the stage to act, but Nana acts immediately from the edge and it leaves you vulnerable for a substantial amount of time--in short, you get less edge control and you're more open. I personally wouldn't use it for anything but discouraging a space animal's forward+b, or looking awesome. It does look awesome.

As SoPo against Fox/Falco, you can edgeguard up+b pretty obnoxiously with repeated ledge-hop d-airs. If they're below the level, ledge hop d-air and poke the spacey's up+b making him redo it. Quickly wavedash back to the ledge, then ledge hop d-air on the up+b again. You'll build damage and eventually force a bad up+b spacing. If they try to DI away and then change the up+b pattern, you'll be able to edgehog, b-air, or land on the stage and d-smash them. It's kind of protracted and difficult, but it uses less prediction than a normal edgeguard or edgehog--it also gives them the chance to randomly kill themselves with air-dodges, accidental forward+b, or just a really dumb up+b if they panic.

Another thing to remember about Fox and Falco is they often love going to the edge with up+b from above. In general, you should face backwards when edgeguarding; it lets you edgehog faster, punish forward+bs easier, and if you have to, you can always just turn around. Also, for forward+b, try CCing at low percents then grabbing. CC grab is my new go-to punisher, in case nobody's noticed.

Lastly (and I know this is hard when playing in tourney) you have to really focus on certain key moments; when Fox dash-attacks your shield, you have to quickly think "has he crossed me up?" 99/100 times he hasn't because you slide backwards and ICs have a powerful reverse grab, so you typically get a shield grab. When you land a dash-attack at low percents you have to think "grab." You need to create... mental subroutines, I guess... that just run automatically under certain circumstances. For instance, building damage with tilts or blizzards when you get a grab before you CG. I've picked up the bad habit of just doing a single headbutt in between CGs when I could be doing tilts or blizzards--it means I have to repeat the chaingrabs more often and that creates more chances for mistakes.

So basically, you need "moment awareness." Some clutch moments and openings require you to really be attentive--you could have beaten Lucky and Mango in a few moments but it seemed like you didn't realize you had an opening. It happens to everybody and it happens in your mind, but you've got to try and improve it. Everybody does, actually.

Oh, and as for Falcon... you actually do really well; remember that Mango's a smart player--it's harder to learn matchups against really smart players because they tend to be unorthodox and adaptive to your actions. You won't often know if you're playing the opponent badly, or the matchup badly--personally, I can't tell in a lot of cases. You do well against his forward+b when you're able, but sometimes he just sneaks it in; whether you know it or not, I can't offer advice beyond "predict better" and that's kind of lame to say. From what I saw your matchup knowledge was decent, Mango was just outplaying you, and in Mango's case that's no dishonor.

So... I hope that helps? I also hope I'm not telling you things you already know.

Edit: Forgot Falco.

Fortunately you do a lot of stuff well and you handle his lasers pretty strongly. Again, you have to be cautious about trying to aerial when you don't have an opening but by and by it was pretty good play. And you need to grab more and more; u-tilt, dash attack, certain u-airs, they combo into grabs, and if you fully master the handoff + damage builders that should terrify everybody you play against.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
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No. It was a kind of boring set, though. He had just gotten back from playing Brawl and his tech skill and spacing were off, so I managed to utilt -> wobble him two or three times first round, and second round I hit him with way more stupid uairs than I really should have been able to. He also used Fox that set, and he's better at Falcon vs. ICs than Fox vs. ICs.

Also, thanks for the advice Wobbles; I really appreciate it. :)

Watching over these again, it's funny how I didn't get a single successful wobble in any of the last three sets I played, lol.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Jul 19, 2006
Messages
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Portland, Oregon
Fly I saw very few mistakes in most of the matches, the only thing I don't like is your belay edgeguards, they are really interesting to watch but not very practical, If you have the time to set up I prefer nana smash with a popo ledgehog, obviously reversed for you ^_^ you wacky nana main you.

Also there are a couple times where you uair and they are low enough percent to keep them near you and you dair, I find the vs Fox and Falco they can shine me too quickly so I like to nair them to put up some distance and try to predict after that, or a lot of times you could have gotten a second uair hit on the way down which I love doing, cause it can sometimes lead into grabs XD

Overall though I saw some VERY solid IC play and was thoroughly impressed. Something I never see you do is recover with an airdodge, there were a few times where you could have jumped and then diagonal airdodged to the ledge, its really good if used sparingly, and difficult to punish if they don't expect it.
 

PB&J

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lawrenceville, GA
wobbles--everytime i read your post i feel like i level up

fly-good stuff man..to me it looks like u need a liitle more experience then u will be ****** alot of people..because u will be able to predict more and that leads to victory..keep it up..oh and i like the up b out of sheild edge guard i do that too....i took it from domo
 

S.D

Smash Master
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Sleeping in a submarine
Well done Fly!

Did some great things against some top players and looked sexy doing it - congrats.

I think you had troubles with fox simply because you weren't quite choosing the right moments to go on the offensive. As Wobbles said Fox should never really leave an opening, you need to fake out punishments and then capitalise on their counter. It's like looking two or three moves ahead I suppose. Bad luck on the wobbling they wiggled out pretty quick :( As with all spacies you need to try and stay underneath them and abuse your uair whenever you get a chance.

Might add to this when I have some more time but at first look you did really well.

Ps: How do you make Nana grab the edge from the desynch upb? My Nana always jumps instead of grabbing the ledge, I don't think its a reliable edgeguard but it looks cool and I'd like to use it in friendlies and such :)
 

Binx

Smash Master
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You are probably holding up to long and it makes her buffer a jump, I had that trouble when trying to learn that technique too. You get used to it pretty quickly, I just don't like it because if you have enough time to set it up you have enough time to set up better things.
 

Fly_Amanita

Master of Caribou
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Yeah, I really should drop that edgehog for the most part. Basically, when I started going to tournaments, I was really bad at edgeguarding and I had more success with the weird belay edgehog at the time, so I've kept using it. I'll try to get it out of my system, although I'll still probably use it against Sheik and a few other characters.
 

S.D

Smash Master
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It might be a good "wtf did he just do?" change-up but most other edgeguard options are way better with that time. Doesn't stop it from looking sexy though :)
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
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Well, when you're in a situation where the technique will work, if it's not a technical risk then feel free to use it all you like :) Flashiness does have a psychological impact on some opponents; unexpected techniques can really knock people off their game, and the ICs have them in spades.
 

choknater

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Wobbles and Fly are both better than me here on West Coast. I'm gonna pay attention to this thread...

edit: Okay, I watched some against Lucky and Mango.

Mango covered a lot of matchup material... so I'll talk about something a little different.

Some advice I have for you Fly is about momentum... I can really see in these videos that you are the one fighting the uphill battle. They are fearless, and simply going through the motions of the matchup. Your IC's playstyle is very unique, so they simply have to stick with the IC's matchup but adapt to the Fly matchup.

What you have to do is strike fear into them, so that they are the ones fighting the uphill battle. Since the fast fallers are obviously much faster than the IC's, your momentum relies on your heavy, HEAVY punishment. Something that the IC's can definitely do, or something that you lack during these late-tournament matches. You have MOMENTS, but no real comebacks or lengthy combos. You have to force these to happen (without being hasty.)

One strength that you really have is that your unorthodox approaches and defensive attacks are really good at breaking momentum. I can see you have obviously gained these through experience. But you seem to forget a lot of really basic bread-and-butter IC combos that you can really punish HARD from. Like for example, you go for dthrow tech chases or short combos where you can easily uthrow->dash attack or something, for much more damage. You've gotten farther in tournaments than I have, so I know you're up to the pressure. Just keep your head on straight and go for the most reliable and heaviest punishment. There are times when you deal 20% where you could've done 50% with a better option. Of course, these opportunities come from grabs, uairs, and defensive utilt/usmashes.

Your playstyle closes up openings where many other IC players fall. I think all you have to do is PUNISH HARDER and you can seriously pull victories off Lucky and Mango.

You have to make them think "I will die if I get punished." This is something Wobbles and Chu can both do, and in order for you to reach that level, the very presence of your IC's on the stage has to make them fear getting close to you. When that happens, the momentum is in your favor. Never forget the reason we all picked up IC's: their punishment game is extremely damaging.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

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dude i just looked at this you could get really far with the ICs and how you use up tilt, dang ,you could beat falcons like choknater said you must make them fear you because when you desysl that really scares people and you can easily do 50% with a grab , i like to down throw SH with NANA down B and charge f-smash and the blizzard hides what you are doing with popo
 

AzN_Lep

Smash Champion
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San Diego, CA
Good stuff Fly, Wobbles already covered a lot but I'll give my 2 cents.

So in a tournament when you can Wobble people, really really take advantage of their poor DI during grabs. People are so focused on wiggling out really fast that they don't DI chainthrows properly. You can use this hugely to your advantage to get a few d-throw d-airs. After which they'll freak out again try to DI away to escape, this is when you Wobble/smash. Really use that kind of stuff to your advantage.

As far as counterpicking goes, my stance is if Wobbling is allowed, the larger stage always favors ICs. Typically Yoshi's is a pretty solid IC stage, but with Wobbling on I always go for my survival. You can DI and live way longer on stages like Dreamland64 whereas your opponents still die if they get grabbed. It's neat because you get an advantage without sacrificing anything.

Now for that Falcon match. Mango is hard... really hard, but I have a few IC vs Falcon tricks in my bag. Let's see, crouch cancel is the first one that comes to mind. Unfortunately Mango caught on to this cuz I used it vs Azen and him earlier. A lot of Falcon's spam forward B because it's really difficult to punish, but if you're below 22% you can straight up crouch cancel it and get a free grab. Reverse d-air chain to wobble or whatever you feel like doing after that. Bottom line is if you grab Falcon and Nana's still around you should kill him.

A good situational trick that comes up really often is baiting the raptor boost. Smart Falcon's will space the knee out of shield grabbing range. When you're at low percentages go for the shield grab anyways and hold down. This is going to make it look like you messed up and left yourself open. Every Falcon I've tried this on has followed with forward b without fail. Crouch cancel to ****. On top of that if they don't space correctly you just got a free shield grab yay.

Jumping desynched blizzards with Nana also work really well for me in the Falcon match. Keep Popo on hand to defend with an up air, but most of the time they'll get caught up in the blizzard for a second and jump out and away. This is a good time to follow with up airs. All in all this is one of the few matches that ICs can camp in pretty well. That's not to say you should straight up camp, but don't try too many approaches against a shffling falcon. I find it's better to react to his approach most the time and bait him into bad situations. After you get the Falcon a little rattled switch gears into more approaches. Keep him guessing. If he guesses wrong you get a stock.

I also agree with Wobbles in his backthrow/upthrow with SoPo. Downthrow is dandy once you've racket up some damage cuz it's easy to link with a smash, but at lower percentages I almost always go for the up-throw -> dash attack/up-air. A lot of times you can even get another grab, in which case d-throw d-smash is the perfect thing to follow up with.
 

Binx

Smash Master
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Nice grab trick lep, I'll have to try that out.

and yeah I agree with you to take advantage of bad DI

by chain throwing.
 

choknater

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Genesis Results:

1. Pink Shinobi
2. Wobbles (you did it!)
3. Chudat
4. Fly_Amanita
5. AzN_Lep
5. choknater
7. Mango
7. PB&J

hahahahahhaah.

edit.... better yet

1. Pink Shinobi
2. Wob_bles
3. Chu_dat
4. Fly_Amanita
5. AzN_Lep
5. chok_nater
7. Mango
7. PB_J
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
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Location
Portland, Oregon
Only if Pink Shinobi and Mango are using Ice Climbers ^_^

1. Wob_bles
2. Mango
3. Chu_dat
4. Fly_Amanita
5. AzN_Lep
5. chok_nater
7. Pink Shinobi
7. PB_J
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Messages
2,881
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Good **** KoreanDJ.

Actually guys, it bears mentioning that since Taj is the #1 everything in the world, every placing must be moved down by one. He reminded me of that today.
 
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