help against pikachu and wario

[MTFFFG]

Today i was in a tournament at my local college. I was dominating the first couple rounds but lost because of personal issues. By personal issues i mean that i had a court date that i had to go to so i was disqualified. Afterwards i played the person who won and beat him. **** i should have won that 25 dollar giftcard to gamestop. Anyways, the only characters that i had trouble beating consistently were wario and pikachu.

Pikachu's speed is great. My pk fire doesn't ever hit him and my smashes are never fast enough to beat his air attacks. Whenever i get close to him his dsmash is so fast and strong that i can't dodge it properly.

For some reason i thought that someone with no range couldn't beat pk fire spamming but i was wrong. Wario was annoying because of his shield rolling. Everytime i pk fired him he shielded and rolled resulting in a grab. I tried to pk waveland but he jumped up and his dair happened to be much stronger than my uair. I wouldn't try my up smash because he always dodged it and punished me for the lag it caused. His motorcycle was very annoying as well especially in close range. He would just pull the thing out and run me off the stage making me try to recover. This person actually spiked me when i tryed to air dodge which surprised me.

Any help against these two foes would help me become better. Thanks in advance

 

[shae_hawk]

Wario I have no trouble with. Probably just a case of you not really knowing the character, I'm sure once you knew his attacks and how he moves you would have no trouble.
Pikachu on the other was giving me trouble too. I finally realized that I wasn't going to be able to PK fire spam much or at all. Once you go on the offense against the rat I think you will find that you can beat him pretty easily going toe to toe with him. Pikachu is fast, but has tons of wind down lag on many of his moves.

 

[MTFFFG]

Shae hawk thanks for the help. I guess if i really understood my opponents strategy then i would be better off. That is common sense. Pikachu's moves don't tend to lag as much as you're saying. Maybe i am just playing too defensive or it's something else but i just can't get an upper hand when in a close combat situation. I can't finish any combo's off without something stopping me. He is fast but he also weak which is the tradeoff, and if lucas can beat sonic then he can beat pikachu.

 

[hazard99]

Something I was going to test out at the next tourney I go to (since I dont have a Wii in my dorm) was seeing if vB absorbs Pikachu's lightning.

If it does... try this out. Most Pika's that I've played spam thunder like crazy. Purposely jump over the pikachu to trick him into using thunder, and then activate vB. Hopefully it will take a nice chunk of damage away if it works. Pretty much, when Pika sends you up, use vB to slow yourself down from falling, until he uses the attack, which you then keep vB activated to get some HP back

Dodge his down smash also, since they seem to love this move now ^^, and attack him during the end (which is kind of laggy).

I can't really be too specific on help, since I don't have the game with me. This seems like really crappy help... but I hope you can get some ideas out of it

 

[Galeon]

it does indeed absorb it. another cool thing is f-smashing a pikachu as he uses thunder. your bat will hit him adding damage and then he'll get hit by his own thunder before he's knocked away by the bat. the knockback will be the thunder's knockback instead of teh bat's. its alot less practical but funny nonetheless.

 

[MTFFFG]

The psi magnet does absorb pikachu's thunder but i have to be next to it, not directly above it to absorb it. if i force him to use thunder then i can either bat him away because of it's lag, absorb it with psimag, maybe even shield grab him.

I don't know if you can shield grab pikachu while he is using thunder. i can't check until tonight since i got work but if any of you can check it out for me that would be very helpful. When i find out if you can i will post it on this thread.

thanks for all the help, hazard99 and galeon. much appreciated

 

[Jihnsius]

If he uses thunder just run up next to him (or fast fall away from him if you're above) and Psi Magnet to absorb some damage and then release to hit him.

 

[cHiCkEN_TeNdErS]

the number one thing that kills lucas as pika is the d-smash
when I play as pika vs my lucas friend I spam f-air d-smash and thunder

to beat it you have to master the air dodge timing (when he uses thunder to ledge camp you)
and shield grab through the d-smash (the snake out ranges the smash)
side step all his air attacks and NEVER roll, because it will lead to a d-smash
also make sure to DI as far away from him as possible to avoid falling into a thunder

 

[Jihnsius]

Space. The only reason any character will ever hit you with a smash attack is if that character combos you into it or if you make a mistake. If you find yourself making too many mistakes and being victims of otherwise avoidable attacks, be more patient. Space.

The same goes for Wario. Even the Sandbag has better range than Wario, just keep your distance.

 

[MTFFFG]

chicken tenders, the funny thing about what you said about air dodging is that yesterday night i practiced air dodging against one level 9 computer. I never hit him, i just tried to dodge every attack he does pretty much predicting what he's gonna do. I figure this will help me time my dodges perfectly with enough practice.

wow i just nearly perfected my air dodging technique. well it's not really a technique, more like a strategy. All i need to do know is learn to perfect shield but i'll do that later.

Here is what i learned right now: if i know how my opponent plays then i have pretty much guarenteed my victory. Everytime he tries to hit me with an attack i will dodge it and grab him right after. If he is a slow character, he will never touch me. My friend and i played and he couldn't put any damage on me. About my friend that i am talking about, he went second in the tournament i was disqualified in so he knows some things.

Lucas is all about spacing and mind games. mind games imo tend to aggitate the opponent into mistakes. I don't know a better character that takes advantage of those mistakes than our boy lucas.

well thats i have for now so just learn how to air dodge and read your opponents moves quickly because in the end you can't lose if they can't hit you.

 

[Levitas]

Stop practicing like that. If you practice reading/predicting against a CPU, then you're really not gonna get better at predicting people. Trust me on this one.

 

[MTFFFG]

levitas, I know that the computer is very different than a player but that is why i played my friend instead. I just got used to air dodging when playing the computer. Im just saying that if you know when your opponent will attack then dodging it isn't hard when you practiced dodging everything you can possibly dodge. I trust you when you say that playing a computer makes you worse because they play differently but i just practiced my dodging consistency against them to perfect my timing.

 

[Jihnsius]

Air and spot dodging are two arts that can really only come from a lot of practice against competent opponents.

 

[MTFFFG]

I didn't know the name of dodging on the ground but since you called it spot dodging jihnsius then that is something i learned today. In my last post i nearly perfected spot dodging not air dodging though i did practice that as well. I love spot dodging when my opponents character is slow like ike, so predictable.

 

[Hardcorenesser]

wario shouldn't give lucas much trouble. he has terrible range. Lucas easily owns him.

 

[Spyckie]

Pikachu doesn't have much lag. Did you have problems with pikachu spamming neutral b?

I play a lot of pika, and I don't thunder so much anymore - I personally think its incredibly easy to dodge if all you want to do is run away from it. Rather, I just meet them in the air with a quick aerial; only if i'm too far away will it thunder, and that is after getting somewhat close to them.

What I would recommend against pika is to be observant. You really have to play this matchup a lot to know when pikachu is vulnerable to a counterattack, because he rarely is. He doesn't always spam dsmash - utlit is just as good, if not better in some situations (less lag, better setup), and even the jab is very useful. He also has incredible ways to approach, so don't stand still. I have the hardest time against people who move around in the air alot, like toon link.

 

[MTFFFG]

Pikachu doesn't have much lag. Did you have problems with pikachu spamming neutral b?

I play a lot of pika, and I don't thunder so much anymore - I personally think its incredibly easy to dodge if all you want to do is run away from it. Rather, I just meet them in the air with a quick aerial; only if i'm too far away will it thunder, and that is after getting somewhat close to them.

What I would recommend against pika is to be observant. You really have to play this matchup a lot to know when pikachu is vulnerable to a counterattack, because he rarely is. He doesn't always spam dsmash - utlit is just as good, if not better in some situations (less lag, better setup), and even the jab is very useful. He also has incredible ways to approach, so don't stand still. I have the hardest time against people who move around in the air alot, like toon link.

the thunder isn't the hard part nor is his thundershock. Every move he does has almost no lag whatsoever so if he ever misses an attack i can't take advantage. Lucas's smashes are too slow to actually hit him but i have managed to pkf spam him at times. I don't ever stay in the air because i usually short hop instead of walk and fox trot instead of run. spot dodging would help my defense a little more.

hardcorenesser "wario shouldn't give lucas much trouble. he has terrible range. Lucas easily owns him."

you would think that but somehow (it must have been me) i kept falling for his false openings and paying the price with a dsmash. he is really annoying when he gets under your skin. I have to keep my cool against him and keep my spacing between us. you're right he has no range and i should take full advantage of that.

thanks for all the replys guys it really helped alot.

 

[Jihnsius]

Lucas should almost always play defensively and tacticly. If you're being hit by random smash attacks, stop rushing in. The only reason you should ever be smashed is due to your own error. Go on the defensive. Only rush if you know you have an opening.

 

[Levitas]

Lol, yeah, I must screw up a lot, my doubles partner can still hit me with Ike's forward smash sometimes. Ike's fsmash is good for one thing: killing little kids that dare come within its range. (I'm working on spotdodging it instead of shielding, the lag is so inviting afterwards)

Wario's a wierd beast. He doesn't have any really disjointed attacks, so as long as you can kill him relatively quickly, he won't have time for more than one fart.

 

[MTFFFG]

levitas, spot dodging is faster to counterattack than just shielding. i agree that the lag is so inviting because of the punishment you can put on him. i just realized how fun it is to screw with my opponent when i spot dodge every attack he throws at me. my friend plays as dedede as his second character; he never touched me lol. i played as wario to see exactly how moves work and figure out a good strategy to defeat him.

jihnsius, you are right that lucas should mostly play defensively and tacticly. His smashes are not fast and i always get caught up in trying to smash my opponent when they just aaa combo me or do faster tilts.