HDTVs on the horizon?

[Acryte]

WiiU will have a VC with gamecube games available for purchase... seems highly likely that they will put a top seller and popular title out for it like Melee. WiiU can put the game out at 1080p. What are your thoughts? Will CRTs phase slowly out of the smash scene in 2013? Will smashers be rockin full hd?

 

[himynameisruss]

not if you can't use a GC controller on the wii u.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Lol CRT's phasing out, as long as theres garage sales with tvs and mofos that keep their GCN/wii and melee discs clean there will always be smash on cube.

 

[Bones0]

not if you can't use a GC controller on the wii u.

USB converter could do it. That being said, I doubt everyone would switch. Most people won't want to buy a WiiU and controller converter (if it can even happen) just to play Melee in HD. I just hope it doesn't have one frame of lag or something dumb.

 

[Astraea31]

no GC controllers
16:9 makes melee look twice as long

 

[Massive]

Considering how easy it was/is to make the widescreen AR code, I doubt they'd have any trouble implementing it for the WiiU.
I mean, you can play melee in correctly scaled, extra viewable area, widescreen mode RIGHT NOW using an AR code.

The pro controller would probably work reasonably well for smash. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see gamecube controllers available for the WiiU if all of this goes down anyway.

 

[V-K]

The pro controller would probably work reasonably well for smash. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see gamecube controllers available for the WiiU if all of this goes down anyway.

Doesn't the pro controller have button delay since it's wireless?

 

[Rob_Gambino]

Doesn't the pro controller have button delay since it's wireless?

nah, you can play on wavebirds without lag, so wireless doesn't make it automatically lag.

 

[himynameisruss]

Doesn't the pro controller have button delay since it's wireless?

have you ever used a wavebird?

and if this does happen, and they do release a gamecube controller, i'll definitely be buying a wii u, if just for this.

 

[ShiroiKen]

I wished there was a converter to connect the GC controller to the Wiimote, as a Classic Controller.

 

[Massive]

Doesn't the pro controller have button delay since it's wireless?

It may have button delay (I have no idea, never used one) but it is not necessarily because it's wireless.

Wavebird use is not discouraged because of lag (the lag amount is so negligible that it's unnoticeable aside from observer bias), it's because of the limited transmission frequencies available. I do recall wiimotes being used at some early brawl tournaments with no real difficulty (or spectrum overlap), I think this issue has been mostly resolved.

Don't get me wrong, wiimotes DO have some noticeable lag in brawl. But so does everything else.

 

[Bones0]

nah, you can play on wavebirds without lag, so wireless doesn't make it automatically lag.

have you ever used a wavebird?

and if this does happen, and they do release a gamecube controller, i'll definitely be buying a wii u, if just for this.

It may have button delay (I have no idea, never used one) but it is not necessarily because it's wireless.

Wavebird use is not discouraged because of lag (the lag amount is so negligible that it's unnoticeable aside from observer bias), it's because of the limited transmission frequencies available. I do recall wiimotes being used at some early brawl tournaments with no real difficulty (or spectrum overlap), I think this issue has been mostly resolved.

Don't get me wrong, wiimotes DO have some noticeable lag in brawl. But so does everything else.

You're all insane... lol Wavebirds definitely have several frames of delay, and it's basically impossible for me to play properly with them because of how much it throws off my timing. The apparent disparity in players that are able to notice lag and those that aren't is quite fascinating. I don't even think there is much of a correlation between tech skill or general skill and ability to discern lag. Some people just don't notice somehow, and it boggles my mind when I hear people saying LCDs or Wavebirds don't lag...

 

[himynameisruss]

You're all insane... lol Wavebirds definitely have several frames of delay, and it's basically impossible for me to play properly with them because of how much it throws off my timing. The apparent disparity in players that are able to notice lag and those that aren't is quite fascinating. I don't even think there is much of a correlation between tech skill or general skill and ability to discern lag. Some people just don't notice somehow, and it boggles my mind when I hear people saying LCDs or Wavebirds don't lag...

i've played on LCDs and the upscaling makes the game 100% unplayable because of the input delay.

i'm the kind of person who would never use a wireless mouse or a TV with high response time due to the delay. i consider myself very sensitive to such.

now, i haven't played with a wavebird in years, but at that time i couldn't feel a delay that was great enough to effect my gameplay. of course, i've gotten much better at melee since then, so this could be just due to the fact that i was terrible when i used it, but i'd have to use one nowadays to find out.

 

[Gea]

If people wanted to use HDTVs for Melee they can already get plasmas and component cables. It's how I play at home, but CRTs are way better for a tournament environment for several reasons (cost, no lag, just works, default cables, gamecube boots fast compared to wii/wiiu). If LCDs had no lag they might have been better just for size, but reality is reality.

 

[Acryte]

@Gea yes but usually there is lag incurred with an HDTV setup. I used to have a little 19inch Vizio that I "thought" was lag free but I hadn't been playing on a CRT for a long long time. After playing CRT it was evident there was significant lag (due to the upscaling), even in game mode with fast response on and minimal post processing. I've been playing on CRT daily for a month and a half and when I use my new setup with my DVDO video converter it seems to be completely lag free now off that same 19-inch. But that converter is able to deinterlace AND upscale in less than 1/3 of a frame and it isn't even deinterlacing because I'm using progressive scan, so it's pretty much lag free... however, I'd still like to reduce the setup and just have a WiiU and a controller adapter or 2... it also seems more reasonable and accessible price-wise etc. for the community in general.

But yea long story short "If LCDs had no lag they might have been better just for size, but reality is reality." <-- reality is changing @_@


The only sad part for me is that I'm sure they won't be putting out v1.0 but whatever.

 

[himynameisruss]

@Gea yes but usually there is lag incurred with an HDTV setup. I used to have a little 19inch Vizio that I "thought" was lag free but I hadn't been playing on a CRT for a long long time. After playing CRT it was evident there was significant lag (due to the upscaling), even in game mode with fast response on and minimal post processing. I've been playing on CRT daily for a month and a half and when I use my new setup with my DVDO video converter it seems to be completely lag free now off that same 19-inch. But that converter is able to deinterlace AND upscale in less than 1/3 of a frame and it isn't even deinterlacing because I'm using progressive scan, so it's pretty much lag free... however, I'd still like to reduce the setup and just have a WiiU and a controller adapter or 2... it also seems more reasonable and accessible price-wise etc. for the community in general.

But yea long story short "If LCDs had no lag they might have been better just for size, but reality is reality." <-- reality is changing @_@


The only sad part for me is that I'm sure they won't be putting out v1.0 but whatever.

i believe he is referring to the fact that plasma TV's have the ability to display standard definition without being required to upscale? not sure, don't know a whole lot about TVs.

the reason for the input delay is due to the TV forcing the game to up-scale to a higher resolution. this resolution change is what causes the input delay in games.

 

[Avalancer]

What about monitors?

 

[SypherPhoenix]

You're all insane... lol Wavebirds definitely have several frames of delay, and it's basically impossible for me to play properly with them because of how much it throws off my timing. The apparent disparity in players that are able to notice lag and those that aren't is quite fascinating. I don't even think there is much of a correlation between tech skill or general skill and ability to discern lag. Some people just don't notice somehow, and it boggles my mind when I hear people saying LCDs or Wavebirds don't lag...

Didn't I talk to you about this before? I can't tell whether you're trolling or not

 

[himynameisruss]

What about monitors?

what do you mean? CRTs or LCD/LED monitors?

if you're running melee on your PC, both will work fine.

 

[Vixen]

I can use a wavebird no problem.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually upscaling is only half the problem. The other half is that CRT TVs can natively deinterlace, while LCDs and plasmas can't - this means the latter need to spend extra processing time just to deal with an interlaced signal, and why component cables significantly reduce latency despite the Gamecube and Wii only outputting at 480p compared to 480i for the trouble.

 

[Bones0]

The only sad part for me is that I'm sure they won't be putting out v1.0 but whatever.

Oh god, what if they use PAL for the WiiU arcade? I just threw up a little in my mouth just thinking about it...

Didn't I talk to you about this before? I can't tell whether you're trolling or not

I remember you saying something about it having barely any lag, but I know it's not the case. I sometimes am paranoid about TVs lagging, but that's not at all what it is with Wavebirds. There is no doubt in my mind that Wavebirds have at least 3 frames of lag. And I have two different versions (one classic gray, and one platinum) so I doubt it's just my Wavebird being a laggier build than others.

 

[Acryte]

With something like Controller lag its harder to tell it's there because your mechanical movements are so ingrained... its easiest to tell if you try to L cancel as late as visually possible etc. Something that you could visually do that far into it but with controller lag on top, it doesn't work. Stuff like waveshining etc will still seem to be on point sometimes just because you could do it with your eyes closed... unless you use visual cues subconsciously to assist your timings for those things, aka what bones might do. I know I use audio and visual cues, though I can do it with my eyes closed as well.

 

[Gea]

i believe he is referring to the fact that plasma TV's have the ability to display standard definition without being required to upscale? not sure, don't know a whole lot about TVs.

the reason for the input delay is due to the TV forcing the game to up-scale to a higher resolution. this resolution change is what causes the input delay in games.

Not exactly. Plasmas still need component cables to not lag (aka outputting in 480p), but they don't suffer from some of the refresh rate and response time issues that LCDs can and do suffer from. Basically even with component cables LCDs can lag, and some plasmas do. In my opinion the easiest way to check for input lag on most TVs is the character select screen. If you want to be absolutely sure then it requires better testing, but most TVs that lag you can immediately tell via the CSS if you are looking for it.

 

[Acryte]

Oh god, what if they use PAL for the WiiU arcade? I just threw up a little in my mouth just thinking about it...

inb4 PAL Melee w/ tripping on VC ...


damn you sakurai -_-

 

[SypherPhoenix]

I remember you saying something about it having barely any lag, but I know it's not the case. I sometimes am paranoid about TVs lagging, but that's not at all what it is with Wavebirds. There is no doubt in my mind that Wavebirds have at least 3 frames of lag. And I have two different versions (one classic gray, and one platinum) so I doubt it's just my Wavebird being a laggier build than others.

I explained exactly what latency and response time were, why HDTVs have lag, and how Wavebirds don't. Wavebirds could possibly have more latency is there is significant interference or if the controller/reciever is damaged in some strange way, but this is very unlikely.

 

[Bones0]

What makes you so sure Wavebirds don't have any lag?

 

[JKJ]

I have a plasma w/ component cables at home. It's a Panasonic Viera, the one everyone raves about as having "no lag".
Idk if I have it set to the correct settings, but the TV still has significant, unplayable lag.
I have an awesome CRT setup right now, consisting of two perfect condition, large CRT's, both of which I found on the side of the road.
I have a 32" Sanyo hooked up to my Wii and recording setup, and a 27" Symphonic Flat Panel hooked up to my Gamecube.
They both work immaculately and without lag.

If I can somehow find a way to play on my HDTV without lag, I'd be open to it, but for right now, the CRT's are my favorite thing ever. I have kinda taken to collecting them as a hobby. I have found 4 in my neighborhood, and just today spotted a 30-someodd inch TV at a local hand-me-down store for dirt cheap, in great condition. I also saw a 12-inch monitor today for 3 dollars. I may go back for them tomorrow.

 

[Acryte]

DVDO video converter. I'm sure the edgegreen one works just as good as the VP30 that I have (except smaller and cheaper). Able to deinterlace + upscale in 1/3 a frame and obviously much less time without deinterlacing since that's the most processing heavy. Works great but not as affordable an option. Most people will not go that far for 720p/1080p melee and high rez captures.

 

[Bones0]

Dolphin + USB converter seems to be the way to go if you really care about lagless HD. Idk how lagless the controller converters actually are though.

 

[Boat Mode]

^Dolphin deff doesnt run as smooth as cube/wii though.

 

[Bones0]

Oh, I didn't know. The TAS videos online all seem really smooth so I figured that's what actual gameplay looked like.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

a problem with that would be no lightshield.
but honestly i definitely think that our community should make the switch if this happens. we'd have to learn to play on a new controller, sure, but i can live with that.

Oh, I didn't know. The TAS videos online all seem really smooth so I figured that's what actual gameplay looked like.

tas videos dont need to run it in realtime. obviously.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Wavebirds have TONS of lag lol

 

[Massive]

Wavebirds have TONS of lag lol

Please empirically prove it. Settle this forever.

 

[Bones0]

I don't need to prove it.



















I have faith.

If someone wants to set up a double blind where I can only see the TV and they can hand me a controller. I won't know if it's wired or not, and I am confident I can tell if it's a Wavebird or not up to 95% accuracy.

 

[The 2t]

If someone wants to set up a double blind where I can only see the TV and they can hand me a controller. I won't know if it's wired or not, and I am confident I can tell if it's a Wavebird or not up to 95% accuracy.

Well the wavebird is significantly heavier and has a giant battery area bulging out the back, haha

 

[Bones0]

Put it on the ground and I will play it like an arcade stick.

 

[KrIsP!]

Thing about melee on wii u is smash 64 is one the wii and can be played with game cube controllers but they won't switch. It's an emulated version, the game itself has lag. When it does happen I'm sure someone will test it and at the very least it might get some people to check out the forums and the scene.

 

[Jolteon]

Smash 64 does not have trigger-sensitive shields like Melee has, though. A GC controller will be necessary for those to work.