Hax's invincible ledge stall tips?

[UltimateMach5]

So the 2013 hax where he does a lot of those invincible ledge wavelands. I tried practicing them for over an hour and i still cant even do one of them.

Correct me if i'm wrong but what he's doing is wavelanding and then fast falling to the edge correct? or is there some special way to do it so it auto hooks into the ledge fast.

Everytime i try i always get too fast of a fall and i miss the ledge, i guess i'm doing the fast fall and then returning to neutral fast.

 

[Ziodyne]

Yeah, you're not letting the control stick go to neutral fast enough. Tap down once on your way down and then immediately let it settle back to neutral

 

[Smokey Huntz]

If you're controller has a single problem with the control stick it is almost impossible to do. Hax's controller is said to be perfect and the best M2K has ever touched.

 

[Nicco]

It's easier with a tight stick. If it's too loose, it could be difficult. A loose stick makes it easy to do a CC'ed gentleman though.

This is VERY hard and takes a lot of patience to learn. Start by simply wavedashing off the ledge to a fast fall. Once you get the hang of that, you should move on to the actual haxdash. Keep in mind you need to let go of the edge by tapping down, not away. Pressing down is faster, and you need to save as many frames as you can if you want to be invincible.

I've been practicing this intensively for almost 5 months, and I'm only now starting to feel comfortable with it, so don't get discouraged if it might seem impossible.

 

[UltimateMach5]

so all my moonwalking probably doesnt help my chances haha.

also ive always been doing away instead of down. i guess ill try down more often now thanks for the advice guys.

 

[Jeapie]

The hax$dash is soo goddamn good against all charackters who give you trouble coming back on the stage from the ledge.
Namely something like sheiks ftilt.
Now with the haxdash you can bait the sheiks ftilt out and punish it as well.
Im going to do my best to try to get this down

 

[Nicco]

On the difficulty scale it's definitely at the top. Shield dropping is baby steps compared to this. Even parrying with Yoshi is a walk in the park next to this sexehness.

 

[Smokey Huntz]

It's not that hard once you get it but I can't do it on the right side of the stage

 

[Aggromidget]

I've been messing around with the HaxDash against CPUs, and I feel I can do it quite fast, but I don't think it's invincible all the way, like sheik's up b stall. I don't think it can be done with the invincibility time given by the ledge, although I'm very much aware of the mix up potential

 

[Nicco]

I'm not a 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure you can stay invincible. Obviously it takes flawless timing, but it should work.

I just do it cuz it looks cool

 

[Ziodyne]

Most likely, you can get full invincibility on it with Hax speed. We need frame data to (de)confirm this though.

That said, it is an awesome bait/stall by the ledge.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Most likely, you can get full invincibility on it with Hax speed. We need frame data to (de)confirm this though.

That said, it is an awesome bait/stall by the ledge.

It's been tested and it is invincible if done right.

And yea you need a good control stick to do this consistently.

 

[Aggromidget]

That's awesome. It'd be cool to see a video showing the invincibility frames when he's doing it.

 

[Aggromidget]

Ugh - I've been haxdashing against CPUs, seeing if they can touch me, and they can. Despite the fact that I try to use as much of the ledge invincibility as possible. If someone could upload a video of them haxdashing against a (level 8 or 9) CPU continuously for a minute or so, I'd be convinced that I just can't do it fast enough. I can't short hop double laser with fox. Fingers not that fast

 

[Wizzrobe]

Ugh - I've been haxdashing against CPUs, seeing if they can touch me, and they can. Despite the fact that I try to use as much of the ledge invincibility as possible. If someone could upload a video of them haxdashing against a (level 8 or 9) CPU continuously for a minute or so, I'd be convinced that I just can't do it fast enough. I can't short hop double laser with fox. Fingers not that fast

I might try it, what cpu character do u want me to do it against?

 

[Aggromidget]

I might try it, what cpu character do u want me to do it against?

Fox, I guess? Anyone that throws out heaps of attacks?

 

[Wizzrobe]

Fox, I guess? Anyone that throws out heaps of attacks?

I might just have a friend come over and should a ton of standing laser thats the best way to show it. I did that one time to test it.

 

[Aggromidget]

I give up. I've spent almost an hour trying to be continuously invincible against CPU. Not viable for me for that aspect. I'll stick to using it as a mix-up. It'd be good for falcon if it was definitely invincible. Looking forward to the upload

 

[SUNG666]

It's completely invincible, you don't need a godlike control stick to do it

If you want to do pivot stops you need a good control stick

 

[ShrieK1295]

If you're controller has a single problem with the control stick it is almost impossible to do. Hax's controller is said to be perfect and the best M2K has ever touched.

Hahaha a legend begins. I could do it consistently for a couple months, but my controller started sucking. Sometimes it "sticks" so I just fastfall past the ledge when I'm not even touching the stick ugh.

 

[Aggromidget]

Someone please throw up a video, I wanna compare my speed

 

[Wizzrobe]

It's completely invincible, you don't need a godlike control stick to do it

If you want to do pivot stops you need a good control stick

No, u do need a good control stick or else its much harder than it should be

 

[SUNG666]

I think you only need a decent control stick (one that doesn't make you double jump when you try to fast fall for example, or if your 22 degree angle makes you airdodge horizontally or something as another example). But if the positions on the stick registers correctly then it it's fine. The only real importance of it being a good control stick is the waveland and the fast fall portion of it. And you can use either 45 or 22 degrees and still maintain full invincibility (and every stick can do 45), and then an immediate fast fall after that (which if your stick makes you double jump instead of fast fall would be a problem, but I don't see any other problem than that). Also, you might actually fast fall through the ledge (even if you let go of the stick to neutral) because you would be doing it too fast (you can't grab the ledge until your ledge invulnerability runs out).

 

[Smokey Huntz]

You need a control stick that is better than most at the very least

 

[Beat!]

A better-than-terrible stick is quite enough. It's not really that hard.

 

[Kadano]

Someone please throw up a video, I wanna compare my speed

Here are some reference gifs so you can see how it should ideally look like. Captain Falcon never loses his invincibility in these.
Left: airdodge as late as possible (thus fastfall is necessary), right: airdodge as early as possible (fastfall would make him miss the ledge). I also started an article about it.

 

[shadrach kabango]

I give up. I've spent almost an hour trying to be continuously invincible against CPU. Not viable for me for that aspect. I'll stick to using it as a mix-up. It'd be good for falcon if it was definitely invincible. Looking forward to the upload

you don't want it enough if you gave up after one hour. are you kidding me?

it can and often does take weeks, months, if not years to completely master something

 

[Aggromidget]

Here are some reference gifs so you can see how it should ideally look like. Captain Falcon never loses his invincibility in these.
Left: airdodge as late as possible (thus fastfall is necessary), right: airdodge as early as possible (fastfall would make him miss the ledge). I also started an article about it.

Oh my god, you legend. Right image seems highly impractical. Also, instead of calling it the ledgedashstall, perhaps call it the haxdash?
Edit: Quote from the wiki link you made: " It is not possible to grab the ledge again before the invincibility has ended". This implies that this technique is not completely invincible. Maybe one frame of not-invincibility or something like that
Edit 2: The first image uses all 29 frames of invincibility, when frames are viewed individually, so it's the slowest possible invincible haxdash. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Ziodyne]

Here are some reference gifs so you can see how it should ideally look like. Captain Falcon never loses his invincibility in these.

New god of frame data gifs has graced the falcon boards.

my day has been made

 

[Aggromidget]

you don't want it enough if you gave up after one hour. are you kidding me?

it can and often does take weeks, months, if not years to completely master something

Definitely true. I stopped after an hour, because I didn't know if it was definitely completely invincible (still don't), and came under the impression that it probably wasn't. Seems I might be wrong (which is good for Falcon's metagame). Fantastic work by Kadana. Wish I could give him more ups. Would also like to see the slowest possible invincible haxdash if possible + not too much trouble.
Edit: Is the first image the slowest possible invincible haxdash?
Edit 2: seems so

 

[Kadano]

Oh my god, you legend. Right image seems highly impractical. Also, instead of calling it the ledgedashstall, perhaps call it the haxdash?
Edit: Quote from the wiki link you made: " It is not possible to grab the ledge again before the invincibility has ended". This implies that this technique is not completely invincible. Maybe one frame of not-invincibility or something like that

Yeah, that one is really hard.
Not that I want to deny Hax his credit for mastering this technique, but first, Magus420 has shown this ledgestall in his auto sweetspot video many years ago, and second, “haxdash” is a somewhat misleading term in comparison.

No, it works like that: You’re invincible from frame 1-30 and frame 31 you can grab the ledge again. This is already obsolete though: I just found out that it isn’t actually the invincibility that prevents regrabbing the ledge, it’s actually an independent countdown that starts as soon as you drop from the ledge and ends after 29 airborne frames have passed. This implies (and all my tests strongly concur) that you have zero leniency on letting go of the ledge if you aim for complete invincibility. Thus, it is very important to have this one input down to the frame. Everything else – rejump, waveland, fastfall – has a total of 7 leniency frames and is thus pretty easy, relatively speaking, but dropping from the ledge is harsh. Luckily, there are tricks that can help you get this down to the frame. I wrote it in a Marth guide, but it applies just the same for Falcon:

Reacting to ledgegrab as soon as possible to max out invincibility
As soon as you grab the ledge, the light blue circle spawns and grows larger and the sound effect is played. I think the wisest choice is reacting to the sound effect because you can still keep eyes on your opponent that way. As soon as the sound and circle effects are played, it takes another 7 frames until you can let go of the ledge. These 7 frames (~120 ms) are a bit less than top human visual reaction times (~130 ms). Mean is about 330 ms, Melee players, being trained for fast reaction and male (both factors correlating with low reaction times) probably average at about 200 ms.
Auditory reaction time is a bit faster (about 80% of the visual reaction times), so that’s another argument to go for the sound and not for the circle flash.

If your auditory reaction time is top 1‰, you might be too fast so if you train yourself to press away when you hear the click sound, you do it too early. I think even if this is the case for you, practicing it for a while will make you automatically delay it a bit anyway.

tl;dr: press away as soon as you hear the clicking sound

Edit: Is the first image the slowest possible invincible haxdash?
Edit 2: seems so

Yes, although invincible ledgedashstall iterations are always 37 frames, so “slow” doesn’t describe it properly in my opinion.
I did the waveland as late as possible with 315° (everything else is impractical on a non-carved out controller and I don’t think other angles would gain an advantage here) while keeping everything else perfect. I personally call it a “late” ledgedashstall.

Also, here are the same gifs that were in my previous post, but slowed down to 1/4 speed:

Spoiler

tl;dr: Let go of the ledge one frame later than possible and you lose continuous invincibility.

Edit: What the hell. Did you guys know Falcon has another, way simpler ledgestall? I feel like an idiot, probably everybody knows about this because Magus420 elaborated on it 7 years ago. Still, I’ve never heard of it, so I felt like sharing it here:

 

[SUNG666]

^That edit is godlike.
IMO invincible reverse ledgedashing is broken.

//edit// I don't/will never main falcon

 

[CaptainFabulous]

This just in Sung is now a Falcon main

 

[Ziodyne]

I'm almost positive I've seen Hax do the lefthand invincible dj ledgegrab in tournament, I recall him dj'ing slightly above the stage and right through someone else's edgeguard into a ledge regrab

All fantastic stuff to know

 

[Windrose]

didn't isai do that simple ledge stall in a video vs Neo playing Roy? He spammed it at least 20 times in sandbagging mode or something....

Surely someone remembers this?

Also these gifs are amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Aggromidget]

Yeah, that one is really hard.


Also, here are the same gifs that were in my previous post, but slowed down to 1/4 speed:

Spoiler

tl;dr: Let go of the ledge one frame later than possible and you lose continuous invincibility.

Edit: What the hell. Did you guys know Falcon has another, way simpler ledgestall? I feel like an idiot, probably everybody knows about this because Magus420 elaborated on it 7 years ago. Still, I’ve never heard of it, so I felt like sharing it here:

Well I'd prefer to call it Haxdash cos 1. He has popularised it and 2. It's easier to say. Of course, taking nothing away from Magus or you.
I've viewed the individual frames of the gifs and counted them, and the more practical ledgestall (well both of them) uses all invincibility frames.
Yeah different complete invincibility techniques just adds to the mix-up potential of falcon. Thank you so much for the input.

Edit: Also, I love you

 

[Smokey Huntz]

Yeah, that one is really hard.
Not that I want to deny Hax his credit for mastering this technique, but first, Magus420 has shown this ledgestall in his auto sweetspot video many years ago, and second, “haxdash” is a somewhat misleading term in comparison.

No, it works like that: You’re invincible from frame 1-30 and frame 31 you can grab the ledge again. This is already obsolete though: I just found out that it isn’t actually the invincibility that prevents regrabbing the ledge, it’s actually an independent countdown that starts as soon as you drop from the ledge and ends after 29 airborne frames have passed. This implies (and all my tests strongly concur) that you have zero leniency on letting go of the ledge if you aim for complete invincibility. Thus, it is very important to have this one input down to the frame. Everything else – rejump, waveland, fastfall – has a total of 7 leniency frames and is thus pretty easy, relatively speaking, but dropping from the ledge is harsh. Luckily, there are tricks that can help you get this down to the frame. I wrote it in a Marth guide, but it applies just the same for Falcon:



Yes, although invincible ledgedashstall iterations are always 37 frames, so “slow” doesn’t describe it properly in my opinion.
I did the waveland as late as possible with 315° (everything else is impractical on a non-carved out controller and I don’t think other angles would gain an advantage here) while keeping everything else perfect. I personally call it a “late” ledgedashstall.

Also, here are the same gifs that were in my previous post, but slowed down to 1/4 speed:

Spoiler

tl;dr: Let go of the ledge one frame later than possible and you lose continuous invincibility.

Edit: What the hell. Did you guys know Falcon has another, way simpler ledgestall? I feel like an idiot, probably everybody knows about this because Magus420 elaborated on it 7 years ago. Still, I’ve never heard of it, so I felt like sharing it here:

You can't really trick an opponent with this one though the hax dash provides a way better mix up

 

[Smokey Huntz]

On a sidenote to if you can shield drop easily with your controller then you can do the hax dash with you controller

 

[Aggromidget]

You can't really trick an opponent with this one though the hax dash provides a way better mix up

If you have different options of returning on stage, then having 2 options is allows you to have a mix up (even though the haxdash is a mix up in and of itself).

 

[Kadano]

What the hell. Did you guys know Falcon has another, way simpler ledgestall? I feel like an idiot, probably everybody knows about this because Magus420 elaborated on it 7 years ago. Still, I’ve never heard of it, so I felt like sharing it here

Apparently, Magus overlooked this. Here is his 2008 post: http://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-brawl-code-agenda.204677/page-12#post-6133515
He mentions that Ganon, Bowser, Link and Roy can do this, but not Falcon, although the animations above prove it. So I guess this is a new discovery?

…

I never thought the day would come where one of Magus’ posts had an error. My world view has just been shattered.