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Has Smash Bros. lost its Competative Edge?

Black/Light

Smash Master
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
3,207
I completely diss-agree from what lil I have read (I try to keep my b****y rant reads at a low count) but I really don't care to explain why.

Simply put, I don't give a f*** if melee competitive players don't translate over to brawl. There will still be groups of people willing to get together and play brawl regardless as well as those who will play it for the next 6 years.

And competitive players=/=the majority of smash fans and smash fan-base. Don't know why it's a shock that they aren't put first.

First its "Brawl is going to suck cause the roster is lame" now it's "brawl wont be competitive cause the glitches are gones!".

W/e people, brawl is a game. . .games are meant to be fun and bring you joy. . .thats what brawl is looking to do. So stop the b****ing and have fun:ohwell:
 

Gennie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
122

SpiritAshura

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
36
The person above me sums up what I'm gonna say. Your argument sucks. Obviously nobody was that good at the game after a week back when Melee first came out either, and combos take time to learn with new movesets and all that.

End of discussion.
 

Zevox

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
1,513
Location
Michigan
i was a casual player for years, but the advanced stuff is what kept me and my friends playing melee instead of getting bored and playing something else. I'm sorry about the video comparison, that was the only fox vs falco vid i could find. I just wanted to make the point that the gameplay was much faster and more interesting. This is all just my opinion. i don't expect everyone to agree with me, i just wanted to get this off my chest.
Perhaps, but you should recognize that just because the speed was what you found enjoyable about Melee doesn't mean thats what everyone did. Hell, for those of us who never bothered learning L-cancel and all those other things you guys do to speed things up, Brawl isn't much different from Melee speed-wise at all. The only thing I've noticed is slower compared to my own Melee fights is Marth's dash speed. Thats it. Brawl still has everything that non-competitive players loved about Melee, and there are still plenty of non-competitive players who play Melee today. And from what I'm seeing, even a large quantity of competitive players still want to move on to Brawl, altered physics regardless, and most of those who have played Brawl seem very happy with it, competitive players included.

So really, it seems to me you speak only for a very small minority in what you have to say - which makes the title pretty misleading and some of your claims rather inaccurate.

Zevox
 

Anther

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
2,386
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
Though I may agree with you in some aspects, your argument is ... childish.
People don't know how to play brawl well. 2 things wrong with the match you posted. They were trying to play it like melee and barely had a grasp of the characters they were using. They're still frequently messing up with recovery on FD. Time will show how the game evolves. Though it lacks the same type of potential Melee had, there's still a lot to be tested and evaluated before its gameplay is marked as degenerate.
 

Rash

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
974
Location
Massachusetts
Things have not been removed. They've merely been altered. Consequently, some alterations have had chain reactions that cause certain techniques not to exist. You can't say wavedashing was removed; you can merely say air-dodging was altered.

If I was part of a dev team for a game like Brawl I'd think directional air-dodging based on momentum is GENIUS. Really, you can't blame the guys at Sora for doing what they're doing.

Now, people are either trying to be optimistic about the game, or are just calling it out as "teh suck" or as non-competitive. No one is right at this point except those who are saying "give it time."
 

Ghettoman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
139
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
Your post failed soooo hard in this part (and others), comparing a video from 6 YEARS after Melee's release to a ONE WEEK VIDEO after Brawl release.. I mean.. it speaks for itself, not only that I have seen way BETTER videos for Brawl even for the short time since it was released

I would argue other parts of the post but people have already done that
I have already said that this was the only Fox vs Falco Vid i could find for brawl.
 

TheKoopaBros.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
259
Location
Burnaby, B.C.
So you're comparing a match from melee that has taken 6+ years to develop its current metagame to a new smash bros game which hasn't even been released out of Japan. Call me out on this, but somehow I don't see that as a just comparison.

Come back in a couple of years and if the metagame and speed hasn't improved to your satisfaction complain all you want.

Brawl needs time.
 

freetyme

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
64
Location
Ohio, United States
Brawl will be epic. It will be played longer than CoD4, Halo 3, GH3, and other competitive multiplayer games. It's a staple for Nintendo fans, and fans of video games in general. Just because you don't KNOW the techniques don't mean there isn't a way to play in a competitive fashion.

Besides maybe someone will figure out how to move faster by changing up the controls. I haven't seen anyone do that before.
 

MK-Ultra

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
123
Location
Feral
I have already said that this was the only Fox vs Falco Vid i could find for brawl.

The point is you have know idea how brawl will evolve through playtime. Next time, if you want attention just pretend you're going to commit suicide or something worth reading.
 

SeriousWB

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
189
Go find a Melee video from when the game was 2 weeks out in Japan. If you can't find one, then there is no video comparison to be taken seriously.
 

Ghettoman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
139
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
Brawl will be epic. It will be played longer than CoD4, Halo 3, GH3, and other competitive multiplayer games. It's a staple for Nintendo fans, and fans of video games in general. Just because you don't KNOW the techniques don't mean there isn't a way to play in a competitive fashion.

Besides maybe someone will figure out how to move faster by changing up the controls. I haven't seen anyone do that before.
All these people that disagree with me, I am fine with it. I'm glad you do.
I hope every point i made is proven wrong. I was just posting my thoughts about what i have seen, and yes, i have seen all of gimpys videos. i've seen the other good tourney matches too. I really hope i am wrong.
 

Coselm

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
548
Location
Gainesville, FL
If everyone wants a melee 2.0, why don't we jsut get a few of the smashers who are in/ went to video game programming school or something and make a melee 2.0?

Just take melee, throw in some new characters and stages, boost up the bottom tier characters, and there ya go! Melee 2.0.

Then all the girls can stop crying, and all the real men can keep playing Brawl.
 

:034:

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
7,562
Location
Netherlands
I hate these threads.

EVERYBODY SUCKS AT BRAWL RIGHT NOW.

BRAWL IS NOT MELEE.

THE BRAWL METAGAME HASN'T EVEN BEEN TOUCHED YET.

BE

MORE

****ING

PATIENT
 

SolidSonic

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
652
Come on guys, we need to respond faster with epic failure gifs, bottom of the third page just isn't going to cut it.
 

Formless

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
59
Uh, no. Just because a sequel changes doesn't mean it won't be competitive. It happens with all fighting games, I can remember people *****ing about Street Fighter 3 back in the day.
 

AthrunZala

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 29, 2005
Messages
235
Location
Suffern, NY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-xSNzYqHGg

that is a more compareable vid. like it says first real melee tourny ever in va. it takes place in 2002.

i agree with you on what mostly you said. i thought the seiries would go more in the derection of a street fighter but instead it has somewhat receeded in tech ability.

i believe that brawl will have tournys. why not. people will still try to be the best at this game. however i agree that i dont think it will be long before the scene dies down a little bit back to how it was in 64. but that wont be for a couple of years.

lets just face it. the game has been made into more of a fun, less tech. game that anyone can play which is what nintendo wants.
 

Ghettoman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2005
Messages
139
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio
I hate these threads.

EVERYBODY SUCKS AT BRAWL RIGHT NOW.

BRAWL IS NOT MELEE.

THE BRAWL METAGAME HASN'T EVEN BEEN TOUCHED YET.

BE

MORE

****ING

PATIENT
I cannot be patient! The have delayed this game too much. I'm way to excited about getting my hands on it. I'm just being a bit pessimistic.
 

clace

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
302
I hate these threads.

EVERYBODY SUCKS AT BRAWL RIGHT NOW.

BRAWL IS NOT MELEE.

THE BRAWL METAGAME HASN'T EVEN BEEN TOUCHED YET.

BE

MORE

****ING

PATIENT
I hate it when people moan about us moaning about melee, saying none of us have the game so how can we know it's bad.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE BASE GAME SPEED! NOT THE METAGAME, TECHNIQUES AND THINGS!
 

NOT Sliq

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
71
No current competitive Melee player is going to keep playing Brawl if it is as bad for competitive play as I have heard so far.

Non-competitives aren't going to care, and they will play it forever.

End topic.
 

Nuvia

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
504
I am not saying Brawl will not be fun
I am not saying so and so move should have stayed in from melee
I am saying much skill has been taken out of the game.
I am saying I wanted to see a melee 2.0 (I guess)
Okay.

Enjoy your opinion.
 

staindgrey

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I find all of this speculation that Brawl will die quite amusing. How long did it take competitive smashers to master Melee and find things lie L-cancel and wavedashing? What's that? More than a couple weeks? Ohhhh, right. And they played the game in their own language!

Once you own the game yourself and have played it for, let's say, a year, THEN you have some credibility in your argument. But until then, this is simply another opinion based on the gameplay of a 6 year old game. Of COURSE things will change with the new game, just like things drastically changed from SSB64 to SSBM. To think that everything would remain the same so you can master it in the opening month is just ridiculous.

Now, we'll simply have three levels of smashers... Brawlers, old school Melee-ers, and reeeeeally old school 64ers. Every game is played in very different fashion, and people will have their individual choices. I, personally, see myself being a brawler, as the advanced tech scene kind of annoyed me. But don't worry, I'm positive more advanced things will be found in Brawl and the tournament scene will once again be dominated by them. Then you can be delightfully proven wrong.

With a game as incredibly deep as SSBB, something that the 'professional' scene takes very lightly since they look at a very, very limited amount of the game (characters, advanced tech, and 1 on 1 on Final Destination) there is SO much to discover. I personally can't wait to become obsessed and watch my grades plummet with the coming year. Here's to Brawl, a new generation leaving the 'professional' scene behind to cry- for now, at least.
 

Hitzel

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
551
Location
New Jersey.
We aren't going to be playing Brawl in six years if it all boils down to being a dumbed down game. If a videogame doesn't have depth, people don't play it for long. Games die all the time because developers sell out and cash in on mass casual gamers for the short term, but don't care if people are still playing in the long term. But of course, fans always deny the possibility of this happening until reality is slapping them in the face a year later and the game's too boring to play anymore.

Here's a post I made here a while back comparing Smash Bros to Halo. Try to read past all the technical jumbo jumbo, because I have a point behind it all:

WARNING! Wall of text approaching.



I put up 21 points. You listed 9. Again, most of the stuff I listed doesn't exist anymore.

And the nine things you pointed out have either been taken out of the player's control and randomized, or been derived of their formal depth. Let's take a look:

What happened to teamspawning?
The spawn system in Halo 1. By standing on specific points on every map, a player could force his teammate to spawn at a specific spawn point somewhere else. You could make your teammate spawn at a power weapon as it respawns, somewhere to give you an advantage against the enemy, behind an enemy, etc. Of course, this was balanced because your opponents know where the spawns points are, and you have to die in order to use the system. Halo 1 took a ton of teamwork and strategy because of teamspawning. Combined with force spawning and randomspawning, the Halo 1 respawn system in itself has more depth than the entire game of Halo 3. You had to constantly out-think your opponents and trick them into letting you use the spawn system to your advantage.


What happened to force spawning?
There are two types of force spawning; one type in Halo 1 and another type in Halo 2. In Halo 1, force spawning is a method one team can use to force the other team to spawn in a specific place, usually the same place the player just spawned. Force spawning isn't commonly utilized in Halo 1, and is more of a system that deters players from camping. Although force spawns are rare and work differently on each map, you generally have to stand in the same spot and not move to make someone force spawn. This makes it easy for your opponent's teammate to kill you if you try to abuse the system.

In Halo 2, force spawning results from Halo 2's spawn system; you generally spawn away from your enemies. If one team has a player positioned in each general area of the map except for one, the other team will be forced to spawn at that left over area until they get rid of one of the forcing players. On some maps, like Ascension, it destroyed the map's balance. On other maps, like Lockout, it made the map a more stable and strategic place to play on, although it slowed the pace of the game down on every map it could work on, which isn't a good thing.


What happened to randomspawning?
There are two types of randomspawn systems, both in Halo 1. The first type works just like the teamspawn system; standing on certain points causes your teammate to spawn on a random spawn point, anywhere on the map. It's used to get your team out of a bad situation by relocating where the spawn system is currently respawning your team.

The second type of randomspawn is when a teammate teamspawns you to a spawn point which another player is currently standing on. If that happens, and there are no other spawn points available in that particular teamspawn chain, the player gets a randomspawn.


How do said spawns work?
Well I've already gone over that, but what they do for depth is huge. Put it this way, in Halo 1, if someone spawned behind you, you thought "Oh wow, that guy just totally outsmarted me." In Halo 3, if someone spawns behind you, you think "Wth. Can this guy get any luckier?" Halo 1's system is controlled by the players and adds a huge mental game. Halo 3's system is random and players can't participate in it. It creates an element of luck and frustration instead.

Because of the way Halo 2's spawn system worked, you rarely ever spawned near an enemy, let alone right behind them. In Halo 3, it happens all the time, and a big factor is that fact that the spawn system "calculates" the best place to spawn a player the instant they die, not the instant they respawn.


What happened to weapon spawn timers?
I am aware that you can tweak weapon spawn timers, but they are dumbed down since Halo 1. Let me explain.

In Halo 1, weapons spawned on FIXED timers. That means that if a Sniper is on a 60 second respawn, a new Sniper spawns on the map every minute interval, period. The Sniper will never spawn at 3:34 or even 5:01, it will spawn at 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, etc. Picking the Sniper up won't effect the timer.

In Halo 3, picking a weapon up, being too close to a weapon as it spawns, or even not picking a weapon up soon enough changes the timer. Random variables can be added, and instead of a Sniper on a 60 second timer spawning every 60 seconds, picking it up at the wrong time completely throws the system out of wack. It could spawn at 4:23, 5:59, whatever.

Why does this matter? With fixed spawn timers, both teams have to be ready to pick up the power weapons and powerups when they spawn. You have to develope different strategies for each interval, because sometimes there are other weapons spawning at the same time or nearly the same time. It adds alot to the game. But with Halo 3's spawn system, everything is left up to chance, so coming up with strats to pick up weapons is pretty much pointless. Halo 2 is even worse, because new weapons won't spawn as long as the old one is still being held by a player, so one team can pretty much grab a power weapon and camp with it without having to worry about the other team picking one up for themselves.


What happened to animation cancels?
Animation cancels were in Halo 1 and 2. They did many different things from meleeing faster, reloading faster, doing two otherwise impossible actions at the same time, etc. Luckily, these glitches were for the most part balanced (aside from superbouncing in Halo 2 and infinite ammo in Halo 1). They opened up more options for players, which inherently added depth. While in Halo 2, most of the glitches simply made things faster, in Halo 1, most of the animation cancels traded one thing for another, like trading a grenade for a double melee, using your secondary weapon while your primary reloads in your backpack, etc. Definitely added depth.


What happened to crouch tapping?
Teabagging quickly in Halo 1 allowed you to bob your head up and down fast enough to dodge headshots, but your movement speed was cut in half while doing so. Shooting at the body countered this, so tapping crouch was generally a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing that players could use to stall a fight temporarily.


What happened to weapon swapping?
It takes a ridiculously long time to swap weapons in Halo 3, and it prevents other actions from being taken, especially animation cancels. Not only is it annoying, but it slows the pace of the game down. A player is more likely to hide to reload and switch weapons than he is to play offensively against more than one opponent.

What happened to melee damage levels?
In Halo 1 and 2, running and moving in the air caused you to do more damage with melees, respectively. If you could set up a situation where you could jump in the air and have you opponent run into your melee, you'd do more damage. In Halo 3, all melees do the same amount of damage. Just another options that players don't have in H3.

What happened to melee hit detection?
In Halo 3, if you're not lunging when you melee, the hitbox is tiny. That means that if you can predict someone coming around a corner and want to meet them with a fist, your melee is most likely not going to register and you'll be a sitting duck waiting for the animation to finish.

What happened to quick camo?
In Halo 1, and even in Halo 2, active camo works differently depending on which gun you're using. For example, if you shoot and have a Sniper out, you'll stay visible for a few seconds before you become invis again. Do the same thing with an Assault Rifle, and you'll go back to invis almost instantly. That's why players with camo rockets use an AR as their secondary instead of a Pistol; the Pistol doesn't give a player quick camo, but the AR does. It's all about decision making. In Halo 3, camo is overpowered when you're not shooting, and keeps you visible for a long time when you shoot with any gun. There's less to think about.


What happened to leading shots?
in Halo 1, bullets were actual objects flying through the air that moved at specific speeds. The Pistol, for example, had relatively slow moving bullets, so you had to predict where your opponent was going to move and shoot ahead to meet him. Hit detection in Halo 2 and 3 works differently, so there's no leading shots outside of bad lag (which is inconsistent anyway).


What happened to the BR?
The BR in Halo 3 is inaccurate and inconsistent. You can't rely on it to make decisions, and it takes the skill away from the game. In a 3-round burst, the bullets can blatently miss the head, or give you a headshot when you weren't aiming at the head. Takes away consistency and depth. The H1 Pistol was accurate at first, but became inaccurate if you fired at full auto for too long, meaning you had to moderate your fire. Players can't control the H3 BR's inaccuracy.


What happened to the PR?
The H1 PR took away shields fast, slowed an opponent down, and froze up an opponent's aim. It was a great teamwork tool that countered the Overshield and offered something a good player could use against a power weapon. In Halo 2 and 3, it's nerfed. There's no point to the PR in those games, and it doesn't add to teamwork at all.


What happened to the Shotgun?
Shotty hit detection is retarted now. If your aimer is red at all, the shot counts as a direct shot the the center of the body, same for the Mauler. Aim doesn't effect damage, just distance. It's obvious how it became a noob weapon because of it.


What happened to the Sniper?
It's nerfed. Horrible hit detection and a horrid rate of fire. It's not a power weapon anymore, at least not the way it used to be. It's not reliable, it's not strong, and it takes stability from the game because of it. The Sniper in Halo 1 and even Halo 2 was balanced as a power weapon and was important to gameplay. In Halo 3 it's been nerfed as to not affect the game significantly, to make it so a good sniper can't dominate over careless opponents.


What happened to flag tossing?
In Halo 1 and 2, you could toss the flag to teammates by dropping it, and the flag would inherit your momentum. You could set up strategies and a good player could throw the flag out of a bad situation if he was thinking on his toes. In Halo 3, the flag drops straight down when you drop it. No tossing.


What happened to flag touch returning?
There is no flag touch return in Halo 3. The system is intended to work on a "time return" system. If you are within 3 yards or so of the flag, you start to make the timer go down. If it reaches zero, the flag returns. The timer at zero makes the flag return if someone is within nine feet from the flag, not touch return. This creates technical flaws with the flag return system and limits the stealth or offensive roles a flag carrier can go about


What happened to bomb arming?
The bomb arming mechanics have also been changed. Instead of having to stay in the opponent's base in order to plant a bomb, you can just set it and leave it. If you try to create a gametype with an arm time but a short detonation time, the enemy team can score in their own base due to them being the last team to touch the bomb if they are nearby.


What happened to play ball?
Play ball is now delayed, and there is no option to make it instant. Throwing the ball of the edge doesn't create the need for quick planning anymore, not to mention that it slows the game down considerably.


What happened to map design in general?
Maps in Halo 3 are generally designed in ways that give players little movement options, plenty of places to hide, and little incentive to move. Take a look at Guardian and compare it to Lockout. Guardian has many more enclosed hallways and very little shot lines, as opposed to Lockout which allows teams to combine fire from many possible angles. Maps like The Pit and Isolation are cut off into two parts, resulting in a campy game. Maps like Snowbound and Epitaf have shield doors that promote camping and slow gameplay. Maps like Narows and Isolation have horrible spawn points, and no cover to create alternate spawn points. Etc, etc, etc. Foundry offers some solutions, but there are serious forge limits on Foundry that limit how much you can make on the map, not to mention the uneven walls that make it extremely difficult to place objects properly.

------

Look, you can like Halo 3. I have nothing against that. But don't say it has considerable depth, because that simply isn't true. There's nothing Halo 3 has over a decent shooter in terms of depth, and in most cases deliberate design choices such as slow, forced animations and constricted map design make the game have less depth than almost any shooter. While you can argue some points, you can simply not say that Halo 3 or 2 have more depth than Halo 1. When H1 vets like me and speak about Halo 1 like it's the gospel, we're not talking out of our a**es or out of nostalgia. Halo 1 really was an in-depth mental gave, and it really did take much, much more skill than the second or third games.

Halo was once a great competitive shooter, one of the greatest in videogame history. Now it's a dumbed down run of the mill shooter designed to make money off of unskilled gamers. It took Halo 2 years to drop down from first place on the XBL activity list, it took Halo 3 a few months. Halo 1 vets still find ways to get together and play Halo, Halo 3 "vets" hate Bungie and are playing Call of Duty 4. If Sakurai does decide to turn Brawl into a marketing scheme, you can bet your *** that Brawl is NOT going to have the longevity that Melee and 64 did. From the looks of it, that just may be the reality of the situation. And if so, a year or so down the road there will be plenty of angry people like me making lists like this about Brawl explaining why the game is too frustrating and boring to play anymore.

Why would this happen? Dumbed down games make money, but they don't last long term. If Brawl is a sell-out like so many people are afraid of, everyone's game experience will be suffering from it after a year. This isn't something new to the videogame industry, and it wasn't something new when it happened to Halo. It's a reality and the people who have blind hope for Brawl may end up finding that out the hard way over time. And Nintendo will have their money.

Sorry for this long rant... I hate it when this happens to games, especially when the game finally gets an online sequel and is butchered. I just get heated. Despite that, what I'm saying here has some real support behind it, so you may want to re-think things before you put blind hope into Brawl, if you are.
I'm not saying that this is 100% going to happen to Brawl or that if you disagree with me you're wrong... just something to think about.
 

iron blade

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
862
Location
Brawling
Ugh, not another of these threads... If you want Brawl to be Melee 2.0, go play f*cking Melee.

This game has been out for a couple weeks. It took years to find all the 'ATs' in Melee. It's a new game. There will be new 'ATs' in time.
 

billywill

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
462
hey can we get this thread locked its like the million thread complaining about the same thing
 

staindgrey

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WastingPenguins

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-xSNzYqHGg

that is a more compareable vid. like it says first real melee tourny ever in va. it takes place in 2002.

i agree with you on what mostly you said. i thought the seiries would go more in the derection of a street fighter but instead it has somewhat receeded in tech ability.

i believe that brawl will have tournys. why not. people will still try to be the best at this game. however i agree that i dont think it will be long before the scene dies down a little bit back to how it was in 64. but that wont be for a couple of years.

lets just face it. the game has been made into more of a fun, less tech. game that anyone can play which is what nintendo wants.
You know the main reason that old Melee video seems so slow? They aren't L-canceling so their attacks are super laggy. Case in point-- if people hadn't realized the opportunities that L-canceling could present to the game it would never have been competitive like it has been for so many years. The problems that face Brawl without l-canceling are exactly the same problems that face Melee without it and Smash 64 without it.

Brawl WILL have a competitive scene, of course it will, and of course it will be fun, but anyone thinking the game will reach anywhere near Melee's level of depth and competition simply doesn't realize how stupidly, accidentally deep Melee turned out to be.
 

skuzzel

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
97
You are right about one thing - the developers "tried" to get rid of all the advanced teches from the last game and make this one free of gameplay mechanics not planned by the developers. And if they were leet haxor they might have been able to do it. If they did, I commend them for their skill in making perfectly balanced games.

But they didn't.

You cant make a perfect game, you cant make it glitch free. You cant plan for everything, you cant know what will be found out by millions of people playing it for hours on end. Its billions of man hours vs 1000s. We will win in the end.

Since we are playing the comparison game let me give you a more uplifting one.

When Melee first came out, how many people were looking for advanced techs? Of those people, were they connected in any way so they could share thier info? No, this is the most amazing thing I have ever seen, people are sitting around watching videos about a game trying to figure out ATs. And some of them are doing that. Just wait until it comes out in America, it going to EXPLODE. This site will probably go offline with all the info.

One other thing, Ken didn't like melee when it first came out... he probably thought the same thing you think now.

But he was wrong, and gladly so are you.
 
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