Has Sakurai ever stated that he is taking the competetive community into account?

[Dr. Krumm]

I've heard a lot of people say that he does, but come to think of it, I've never actually recieved any confirmation on this. We know that he's attempting to balance it, but where has he stated that he intends to make it casual and competetive at the same time? Does anyone have any confirmation on this?

I apologize if this is a stupid post.

 

[Substitution]

Well, he is making the game faster, not to mention more balanced.
Plus, he took out tripping. So, that's three changes off the top of my head.

Now, while I don't think we're the majority. That will always be the other side.
It does look like he's owning up to the complaints from Brawl. And are fixing them.

So, while it may not be by much, I'd assume so.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i am pretty sure that making the game faster than Brawl, the Bowser redesign and the new ledge rules were meant to make us happy, so yes. But he still needs to address everone... and also he needs to balance the game in more setups than 1vs1.

 

[Big-Cat]

He has said that they're aiming to balance for the intermediate level. What exactly that means can go about two ways. The first is that he was talking about the level of strategy, meaning this could affect the strategical depth of the game. The other is that he was talking about execution difficulty. Based off of what we've seen, it appears that he's referring to the latter. Characters like Little Mac and Rosalina will prove to be some of the most complex characters in the series yet from a strategic standpoint - maybe even execution for Rosalina in particular.

He has also talked about making sure movesets are viable in both FFA and 1v1. He cited the Falcon Punch as an example where it was strong in FFA, but its startup affected its usefulness in 1v1. This is possibly why they implemented moves like Miss Fit's FSmash, Villager's DSmash, and Fox's DSmash where the moves hit in front and behind them during the animation, but not always at the same time (i.e. Villager).

 

[The Real Gamer]

I don't think the development team has specifically stated that they're catering more towards the competitive side this time around but based on what we've seen/heard I think it's a pretty safe bet that they're aiming more towards a middle ground instead of strictly making the game for casuals like with Brawl.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

With this installment, its apparent he's acknowledging the competitive value of Smash. Along with the game being between Melee and Brawl's pace, no random tripping, and the focus on balance, there have been a few PotD's where he highlights various mechanic changes (new ledgegrab mechancis, finishers on infinite jabs) and character changes in depth (Pit's vs. Link's arrows, Little Mac's technical chain combos). Not to mention he has Bandai Namco developing the game with him, who have seasoned teams that develop fighting games (Soul Calibur, Tekken, etc.)

 

[DakotaBonez]

Is it actually faster? I'd need to see a side by side comparison vid. Based on the Mario Vs Megaman footage, the game seems to be the same speed as Brawl, not that that's a bad thing (just a bit disappointing) it's just that I don't see any evidence pointing towards more speed, although there are speedy characters like Lil Mac.

There are some awesome features being added though.
There's no tripping
There are new ledge mechanics
and Lil Mac has an interesting diagonal smash attack that has a noticeably different animation and unique launching properties based on which direction you tilt it.

I hope that other character's diagonal smash attacks are improved.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

You know, I thought the same thing when I first saw that Mario vs. Mega Man video. The change in pace does seem very subtle. Although in more recent footage for the game, I see the speed both movement and attack wise becoming faster than Brawl, but not quite close to Melee. Another thing to take from the Mario vs. Mega Man video is that fallspeeds are noticeably faster.

I've also noticed a few peculiar things with the Little Mac trailer. Others have picked up on it.

 

[Snakeyes]

Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancing Smash Bros.?

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people. We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people.

But that's not to say that I don't appreciate very high-level competitive play, the type of very refined competitive gameplay that happens in other fighting games. Personally, I have a lot of experience playing in the arcade scene, and personally came out as a champion of a 100-person battle in arcade Street Fighter II.

Kotaku: Recently?

Sakurai: A long, long time ago. So I don't wanna ignore that there's that type of pleasure to be had from the game.

There it is, straight from the horse's mouth. Anything else is speculation.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

It sounds like Sakurai reasonably designs Smash with a wider market appeal while refining it so competitive players can enjoy it as well. The type of fun he remarks when he won a Street Fighter II tourney is the exact fun evoked from pro Smash play, so it's not like he's numb to it.

In another interview, Sakurai also says that he brings players of different skill levels to test the game and makes decisions based on how they played. If his skill cap is the same as the best of our pro scene remains to be scene.

 

[DaDavid]

That goes along with thinking about how I think each player should be able to customize the experience so we can accommodate different play styles. It’s very important for me for everybody to have the play experience that they want. It’s also very important for me to be able to accommodate the opinions of the most passionate players, of course, which tend to be the more advanced players.

Kotaku: Do you feel like there were flaws or weaknesses in Smash Bros. Brawl that you want to make better, or fix, or learn from for the new Smash Bros. games?

Sakurai: I would consider the changes that we’re making this time around not as fixes, but that we’re changing the direction. And so the vision for the overall balance of the game inSmash Bros. Melee, it was sort of more focused towards more hardcore players. Then when it came around to making Brawl, this was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction. So now, for this time around, we’re sort of aiming for something that is in between those as far as the speed of the game. Because I don’t really think this time we’re in a situation where we’re trying to accommodate that many new players like we did last time.

There's also that bit. The first part was more specifically in regards to Smash Balls and items and the ability to turn them off, but it's all pretty relevant in terms of his opinion of "catering" to the competitive scene.

 

[lordvaati]

There it is, straight from the horse's mouth. Anything else is speculation.

Hmm, so in other words he aims to make an experience acessable and approachable by everyone but with enough competitive elements hidden inside to keep high level players enjoying it as well.

So basically what Pokémon does. I am cool with this.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

I think he's doing well enough. While I personally would prefer Melee like speed, ATs, etc, I do recognize that the competitive scene is not the entire Smash scene, nor would I say half. Look at it through his shoes. If he makes the game as I want, he'll be alienating the majority of his audience, so adding a balance would be good. Melee is scary to some people who have played Brawl their whole life, and gradually getting them to the competitive, or border line competitive level is good.

 

[smashmachine]

There it is, straight from the horse's mouth. Anything else is speculation.

I won't believe it until the game itself comes out

 

[D-idara]

Melee speed would definitely be a step back, as ATs returning with ridiculous inputs.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Melee speed would definitely be a step back, as ATs returning with ridiculous inputs.

Why would it be a step back? Also, basic inputs like wavedashing is not ridiculous. It's just 3 buttons............

 

[JV5Chris]

The game being faster is a fairly universal request, not just a competitive one. As for edge-hogging, the general audience hasn't been happy with that for years. (I think it makes for some interesting interplay, but that's besides the point)

As far as the Kotaku article:

Appreciation for competitive play ≠ an increased emphasis on competitive play.
Customizing and opening up the experience ≠ strong consideration for the smash tournament audience.
Not taking high-level player feedback ≠ building a game with competitive scene in mind, or how the game balance breaks down after players here dive into it.

Not trying to be a downer, just pointing out the evidence isn't there for some of these conclusions. Suppose on the upside some of it is open-ended, but unfortunately not the most important part about high-level feedback.

 

[DaDavid]

The game being faster is a fairly universal request, not just a competitive one. As for edge-hogging, the general audience hasn't been happy with that for years. (I think it makes for some interesting gameplay, but that's besides the point)

As far as the Kotaku article:

Appreciation for competitive play ≠ an increased emphasis on competitive play.
Customizing and opening up the experience ≠ strong consideration for the smash tournament audience.
Not taking high-level player feedback ≠ building a game with competitive scene in mind, or how the game balance breaks down after players here dive into it.

Not trying to be a downer, just pointing out the evidence isn't there for some of these conclusions. Suppose on the upside, some of it is open-ended, but unfortunately not the most important part about high-level feedback.

All those things we brought up weren't trying to serve as evidence of the things you equalized them to. We were simply saying that those statements, along with the changes we've actually seen, suggest that he's not ignoring the competitive scene and wants to make a game that they can enjoy as well.

No one said that he has a strong consideration for them, just that there's clearly a difference between his approach to Brawl and this game. Which is clearly evident in his comments about shooting for the middle. Nothing more or less was said in this thread.

 

[smashmachine]

Why would it be a step back? Also, basic inputs like wavedashing is not ridiculous. It's just 3 buttons............

It's D-idara, I really don't know why he cares about how advanced the game is considering that he won't care about the multiplayer because he can't stand losing.

 

[D-idara]

Why would it be a step back? Also, basic inputs like wavedashing is not ridiculous. It's just 3 buttons............

3 buttons at practically the same time and with perfect execution, I want a game faster than Brawl, but not as ridiculous and twitchy and Melee.

It's D-idara, I really don't know why he cares about how advanced the game is considering that he won't care about the multiplayer because he can't stand losing.

Again, dignified, you could try to stop insulting me completely out of context just because you've got nothing better to do, go practice wavedash or something.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

3 buttons at practically the same time and with perfect execution, I want a game faster than Brawl, but not as ridiculous and twitchy and Melee.

Pretty easy to me.....

 

[DaDavid]

Again, dignified, you could try to stop insulting me completely out of context just because you've got nothing better to do, go practice wavedash or something.

Because responses like this are much more dignified...

Want people to stop insulting you "out of context?" Stop playing the part.

"Melee speed would definitely be a step back, as ATs returning with ridiculous inputs." is an infinitely worse way to comment on the matter than "I would prefer those things didn't return personally."

 

[Snakeyes]

Hmm, so in other words he aims to make an experience acessable and approachable by everyone but with enough competitive elements hidden inside to keep high level players enjoying it as well.

So basically what Pokémon does. I am cool with this.

That's more or less how I understand it as well. Sakurai will spend the vast majority of his time and energy building the game for the intermediate-level. Once that's done, he may throw in a few cool extras for players like us, as long as they don't compromise the experience for Smash's intended intermediate-level audience.

 

[D-idara]

Because responses like this are much more dignified...

Want people to stop insulting you "out of context?" Stop playing the part.

"Melee speed would definitely be a step back, as ATs returning with ridiculous inputs." is an infinitely worse way to comment on the matter than "I would prefer those things didn't return personally."

Well, how about this:
I want Sakurai to make the game accessible and easy to pick up and play, and he should of course add depth to the game without compromising the simplicity and accesibility of Smash, adding several layers of depth to the game while minimizing technical barriers at the same time would be ideal.

 

[MrBond]

When I watched the E3 demo of Sakurai and some other dude playing Mario vs Megaman, the gameplay looked a bit faster to me personally. To me, it looked like the characters definitely fall down faster and attack a bit faster. Another thing, from all of the trailers I've watched for the game so far, it seems they emphasize the meteor smashes/spikes. For example, they showed Megaman' spike and Donkey Kong's spike in the same video. It looked like Rosalina had a spike attack in her trailer as well.

To me, the hinted emphasis on those spike attacks in the trailers fits Sakurai's consideration of the competitive community. I like how the game looks so far, but we won't truly know how the game plays until we actually play it, whenever it comes out haha. But yeah, those 3 changes mentioned earlier (new edgehogging maneuver, dismissal of tripping, and a game speed between melee & brawl) are getting me all excited.

I'll like the game when it comes out regardless of how it plays. When Brawl first came out, I actually liked the slowed down gameplay style (probably because I was 12 and didn't know any better though lol). Brawl is still fun to play with friends, and I use it as a break from playing Smash64, since that is what I play the most with my friends.

 

[DaDavid]

Well, how about this:
I want Sakurai to make the game accessible and easy to pick up and play, and he should of course add depth to the game without compromising the simplicity and accesibility of Smash, adding several layers of depth to the game while minimizing technical barriers at the same time would be ideal.

Probably my favorite statement on the subject. But my bias is showing because it's almost exactly my opinion on it haha.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

There was the one Kotaku blog where he talked about Bowser's new changes and also semi-confirmed Captain Falcon by mentioning the Falcon Punch where he said that they're trying to balance the game out both in free for all and 1v1. Putting such emphasis on 1v1, not to mention balancing in general, obviously means he has the competitive community on his mind to a degree.

 

[Reader]

I don't think that tripping was taken out for the sake of competitive community. I believe it was taken out for the sake of humanity.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Well, how about this:
I want Sakurai to make the game accessible and easy to pick up and play, and he should of course add depth to the game without compromising the simplicity and accesibility of Smash, adding several layers of depth to the game while minimizing technical barriers at the same time would be ideal.

The thing is that unless Sakurai wants to make a spin-off, there is no way to make Smash hard to pick up and play.

 

[JV5Chris]

We were simply saying that those statements, along with the changes we've actually seen, suggest that he's not ignoring the competitive scene and wants to make a game that they can enjoy as well.

All he's done is acknowledge players enjoy the game in different ways. No more, no less.

I wouldn't read into it any further, especially not when Smash is going through the same trouble getting into EVO this year.

 

[DaDavid]

All he's done is acknowledge players enjoy the game in different ways. No more, no less. I wouldn't read into it any further.

Yes we shouldn't read into the words he said that carry the meaning that they do.

He's specifically spoken about targeting the middle in terms of balance, speed, and game options. All in articles mentioned in this thread. That's a bit beyond mere acknowledgement.

 

[JV5Chris]

He's specifically spoken about targeting the middle in terms of balance, speed, and game options. All in articles mentioned in this thread. That's a bit beyond mere acknowledgement.

Balance, speed, and game options are all pretty universal requests. Again, I wouldn't conclude anything about Sakuari's interest level in the competitive scene from it.

 

[DraginHikari]

All he's done is acknowledge players enjoy the game in different ways. No more, no less.

I wouldn't read into it any further, especially not when Smash is going through the same trouble getting into EVO this year.

Well to be fair, Sakurai I'd guess has zero influence with the EVO situation as that's more a wider corporate problem going on with Nintendo as a whole.

As far as the topic as a whole, the fact of the matter is Sakuari has never really gone out of his way to directly engage the competitive community previously, the competitive scenes just rose up around the options and features that were available in the game to begin with, I don't really see that changing in any particular way. I will agree with the point that mostly what he has done is acknowledge the situation.

Even so I of the opinion that heavily engage either side of the casual/competitive in an extensive way may not create positive experience people seem to think it would, as much as customer input is important too much input tends to distort and make things far more complicated. I'm more of the opinion it is best to let Sakurai and his team make the product they are deciding to make and allow the community to judge when the product comes out.

 

[JV5Chris]

Well to be fair, Sakurai I'd guess has zero influence with the EVO situation as that's more a wider corporate problem going on with Nintendo as a whole.

I don't imagine Sakurai is the one calling those shots, but he is the creative director of the franchise. I'm sure he could have plenty of influence if he applied it, but it's hard to say what his thoughts on the matter are.

I will agree with the point that mostly what he has done is acknowledge the situation.

Should be noted too that it took a very specific interview question to get even there.

Even so I of the opinion that heavily engage either side of the casual/competitive in an extensive way may not create positive experience people seem to think it would, as much as customer input is important too much input tends to distort and make things far more complicated.

Certainly a lot of truth in that, but it's not a good reason to ignore high-level input. Like any sort of feedback, it needs to be filtered to be manageable.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai said something about balancing around FFAs didn't he?

But whatever. Everything still points to an intermediate level of play in regards to balance. I'm sure he'll still 'noob proof' things like Kirby's vB and Ike.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Hmm, so in other words he aims to make an experience acessable and approachable by everyone but with enough competitive elements hidden inside to keep high level players enjoying it as well.

So basically what Pokémon does. I am cool with this.

That's also a really old quote. People change.

 

[LancerStaff]

That's also a really old quote. People change.

But Sakurai has been like this his whole life. I honestly doubt he'd suddenly change.

 

[smashbro29]

I hope depth this time isn't mostly hitting the shoulder buttons on time, it's not particularly difficult but it cannot be healthy to play a game like that for so long and it adds very little that couldn't be added in simpler to execute ways.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

All he's done is acknowledge players enjoy the game in different ways. No more, no less.

I wouldn't read into it any further, especially not when Smash is going through the same trouble getting into EVO this year.

As someone mentioned that was a corporate problem. Nintendo would be swift in not letting it sour their relations this time.

But when IS EVO? Depending on its release, the slow talk of why Melee isn't immediately guaranteed either has to do with either promotions or the fact that SSB4 may be out by then if it's September or later, and they might want to push that for EVO instead.

 

[Manty]

But when IS EVO? Depending on its release, the slow talk of why Melee isn't immediately guaranteed either has to do with either promotions or the fact that SSB4 may be out by then if it's September or later, and they might want to push that for EVO instead.

Evo is in July.