has anyone else noticed how easy the bottom 15 are to use

[Danny of AD 1]

i know you will probably hate me for bringing this up i don't like maining most top tier characters, this is saying something as i can use 22 of the characters effectively
i hate trying to use a fox falco ice climbers and jigglypuff
i even don't mind samus bowser ganondorf or shiek
i think of the glaring weaknesses as negligible such as
ness's pk thunder
pichu's recoil damage
game and watch's poor defense
roy's short range
does anyone here think it's odd that i don't like 4 s tier characters despite being a veteran

 

[kingPiano]

Well I don't think any other "veterans" would agree those weaknesses are negligible, but to each their own

And "easy to use" is a pretty subjective case by case term

From a solo and casual standpoint they are of course easier to pick up and use since they don't have much tech or options to practice. But even then most of their attacks are slower and less damaging than top tiers.

From a high competitive level of play....not "easy to use" at all since you have to work 10-20x harder to get kills and hits and your options suddenly seem severely limited with the jump in player skill level.

Top Tiers require high APM and this usually leads to carpal tunnel or some other mild form of hand exhaustion/ailment. So objectively and physically yes lower tiers require far less effort usually, but as a direct result this means far less results (you basically get what you put in). Generally the lower on the tier list the less material you have to practice, less APM, less tech, so this usually means less skill to learn and a much lower glass ceiling (there are exceptions like Yoshi). But if you want to win at regionals and nationals it's an uphill battle and requires the user's raw skill/intelligence to make up for tier gaps.


To your last point, it's not weird at all....
Some people just don't like using top tiers cause they are overused, some people might not have the dexterity or patience to learn them, and some just don't like any of the top tiers from a purely aesthetic/favoritism point of view.


...............................

 

[yuuray]

I get what you're saying. I main Fox and play pretty much all of the top tiers regularly, but I love playing Mario because he's fun and easy to play. He is the Mario, after all.

 

[AirFair]

Well, they aren't easy easy to use. If you mean by competitively, then using a character like Kirby is very difficult with lack of mobility and good kill moves.

 

[Danny of AD 1]

i don't really play melee competitively but if i were to marth peach shiek and captain falcon are my best options as those are in the top tier or s tier on my usability tier list doc and pikachu aren't tournament viable honestly the top tiers that have fewer techs are at the top where the ones with techs are bottom tier ice climbers has a lower amount of techs but they're only so low because of how often nana dies as for jigglypuff i see nothing that i could use jigglypuff has always been at the absolute bottom smash n64 jigglypuff is a pitiful excuse of a character in melee again being on my f or negligible tier brawl again outbidding sonic meta knight and olimar and smash 4 outdoing even little mac in crappiness i mean even techs would not increase jigglypuff's rank 12/12 n64 27/27 melee 49/49 in brawl and 51/51 in smash 4

 

[EddyBearr]

Some of the hardest characters in the game happen to be low or bottom tiers (Yoshi, Mewtwo, Ness, Pichu).

I don't think there's any significant trend regarding difficulty to use and tournament viability.

If you have Jigglypuff in your bottom tier in Melee, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of at least Jigglypuff, if not the game itself.

 

[gmBottles]

I can tell you now that bottom tiers like Bowser, Pichu, Ness, G&W, etc. are not easy to use. Maybe you say this because they don't have as much tech as characters like Fox, but to actually win games with them is extremely difficult.

Also, there's nothing wrong with maining top tiers. If you like a character, main them, simple as that. Tiers shouldn't be something you consider primarily when picking a main.

 

[Squire]

There is no argument for correlation between ease of use and tier spot. Yoshi is highly technical and is (until recently) low tier. Bowser, Ness, Pichu, Kirby, and Mewtwo are very difficult to use properly, as stated earlier. But so is Fox. Then there are characters like Falco and Sheik which are easy to pick up, but hard to master. There are a lot of hard to use characters all over the tier list, and quite a few easy to use ones. Also, some characters just click with certain people. I feel like I'm using an upside down controller when I play Ness, but my friend is very good with him.

And when it comes to my mains, Mario & Doc: "You can learn all there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you."

27/27 melee

Pretty low considering there's only 26 characters in Melee. Also, Jigglypuff is very powerful and very viable. If you have Jigglypuff as dead last I'm starting to question your claim about being a "veteran"

Even if you don't play the character, which I don't either, it isn't hard to just look at her and see why she's high tier.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

There is no argument for correlation between ease of use and tier spot. Yoshi is highly technical and is (until recently) low tier. Bowser, Ness, Pichu, Kirby, and Mewtwo are very difficult to use properly, as stated earlier. But so is Fox. Then there are characters like Falco and Sheik which are easy to pick up, but hard to master. There are a lot of hard to use characters all over the tier list, and quite a few easy to use ones. Also, some characters just click with certain people. I feel like I'm using an upside down controller when I play Ness, but my friend is very good with him.

Lowtiers are generally pretty easy to play properly cause they don't have a lot. That it's hard to win with then isn't cause they're hard. It's cause they're insanely weak in comparison to the top tiers.

Take bowser for example. He has no use for wavedash due to his insanely slow jumpsquad and small distance. His dash dance gets him nowhere. His only good move is up b oos. In conclusion to play a good bowser waveland and shield a lot. Throw his other moves out sparingly to not get punished for them and to avoid predictability.

simple strat with easy execution. Will it win you sets against mentionable people? Not likely. Do you have a better alternative? Not really.

 

[Spak]

honestly the top tiers that have fewer techs are at the top where the ones with techs are bottom tier

No, not really. Fox and Falco are the two most technical characters in the game, Falcon has very technical movement that needs to be utilized to use him effectively, and ICs have some very technical desyncing. Top-tiers are at the top because they have the most potential.

 

[EddyBearr]

There is no argument for correlation between ease of use and tier spot. Yoshi is highly technical and is (until recently) low tier. Bowser, Ness, Pichu, Kirby, and Mewtwo are very difficult to use properly, as stated earlier. But so is Fox. Then there are characters like Falco and Sheik which are easy to pick up, but hard to master. There are a lot of hard to use characters all over the tier list, and quite a few easy to use ones. Also, some characters just click with certain people. I feel like I'm using an upside down controller when I play Ness, but my friend is very good with him.

And when it comes to my mains, Mario & Doc: "You can learn all there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you."



Pretty low considering there's only 26 characters in Melee. Also, Jigglypuff is very powerful and very viable. If you have Jigglypuff as dead last I'm starting to question your claim about being a "veteran"

Even if you don't play the character, which I don't either, it isn't hard to just look at her and see why she's high tier.

I don't consider Kirby or Bowser to be difficult to play properly. The timings with these characters are very lenient and not very demanding. They are hard to win with, sure, but playing them at.. say.. 50% optimization (or whatever it means to have a good grasp of your own character) is way easier than playing Fox, Yoshi, Ness, or even Pichu at this fabled "50% optimization". The hardest thing about Kirby is learning to crouch. I think there should be a distinction between "difficult to win with" and "difficult to play as," as only using the latter implies to me that a bottom tier has the same potential as a viable or high tier.

 

[Squire]

That's fair I guess, but we're kind of getting off track. My main point was that there's no correlation between being low tier and being easy to pick up. I'm just saying there are technically demanding characters on both sides of the tier list. Some are just not worth picking up competitively.

 

[gmBottles]

Lowtiers are generally pretty easy to play properly cause they don't have a lot. That it's hard to win with then isn't cause they're hard. It's cause they're insanely weak in comparison to the top tiers.

Take bowser for example. He has no use for wavedash due to his insanely slow jumpsquad and small distance. His dash dance gets him nowhere. His only good move is up b oos. In conclusion to play a good bowser waveland and shield a lot. Throw his other moves out sparingly to not get punished for them and to avoid predictability.

simple strat with easy execution. Will it win you sets against mentionable people? Not likely. Do you have a better alternative? Not really.

Bowser's wavedash is actually pretty useful for spacing. His waveland makes his movement not terrible on stages with platforms, he can actually move pretty quickly if you know how to platform waveland well. It's very similar to Ganondorf's movement. UpB OoS is definitely not his only good move. It's his best tool for sure, but he has good moves like fair, uair, and the Koopa Klaw. While he doesn't have nearly as many good moves as better characters, he still has options.

 

[Thy Knight]

Although I've played very little Melee (And I mean VERY LITTLE) , theres so much buzz surrounding the game now'a days that I'm considering entering tournaments to test the waters. I've seen plenty of Grand Finals videos featuring either Fox, Marth or Sheik though, and I really dislike the versatility of the character match-ups that go on in those tourneys.

That's pretty much the sole reason of why I'm going to go into Melee with Bowser being my one and only main. I know I'm going to get wrecked, but I'm still going to stick it through with Bowser. I'm just interested to experience how it is to face a Fox player who's on point with his tech. It's unfortunate that I don't see any guides on how to use Bowser in Melee though, and in addition to that theres barely any videos of a Bowser in tournament.

We'll see how it goes,

Long live the Koopa King! (right?)

 

[Squire]

and theres barely any videos of Bowser in tournament.

DjNintendo has a really good Bowser. Look him up.

More power to you for wanting to main Bowser, but I'm going to warn you: that's an uphill battle. A very, very steep hill.

 

[Thy Knight]

DjNintendo has a really good Bowser. Look him up.

More power to you for wanting to main Bowser, but I'm going to warn you: that's an uphill battle. A very, very steep hill.

Mhm. He's the only one I've seen use Bowser in fact, what with the 1000$MM with aMsA and all. And for the hill metaphor, I intend on climbing it with a smile! ..and perhaps a shattered ego.

 

[Spak]

Gimpyfish also had a good Bowser last time I saw it, but I'm not sure how active he is now.

 

[gmBottles]

Gimpyfish isn't very active as far as I know. There are very few Bowser mains, though there are many Bowser players. Once Eikelmann saw me playing Bowser and said something along the lines of "Dude there are only like 4 Bowser mains, counting you".

Although I've played very little Melee (And I mean VERY LITTLE) , theres so much buzz surrounding the game now'a days that I'm considering entering tournaments to test the waters. I've seen plenty of Grand Finals videos featuring either Fox, Marth or Sheik though, and I really dislike the versatility of the character match-ups that go on in those tourneys.

That's pretty much the sole reason of why I'm going to go into Melee with Bowser being my one and only main. I know I'm going to get wrecked, but I'm still going to stick it through with Bowser. I'm just interested to experience how it is to face a Fox player who's on point with his tech. It's unfortunate that I don't see any guides on how to use Bowser in Melee though, and in addition to that theres barely any videos of a Bowser in tournament.

We'll see how it goes,

Long live the Koopa King! (right?)

Long live the Koopa King indeed! But if you don't have much experience with Melee's common matchups you're gonna get creamed entering with Bowser. Just watch out for Shiek and Marth, as those are practically 100:0 matchups.

 

[Double Helix]

The bottom 15 are bottom 15 for a reason. Smash bros as a game in general, regardless of which installment we are talking about, is an easy game to play. Many characters can be picked up and played, but most are very hard to learn. For instance, the "negligible" PKT2 weakness is so "negligible" that I lose stocks because I'm offstage. Not only are the angles hard to get, but it is very easily punishable. Koopa is slow, and has a large hitbox. His Fox matchup is a bit more favorable than other low-tier vs high-tier because he can't be up-throw -> uair'd.

The reason the bottom 15 aren't easy to take into tournament is because your execution has to be arguably more crisp than the higher tier characters, simply because most of the low-tiers - especially the bottom 15 - lack option select AND option coverage that make the higher tier characters higher tier characters. Some are hard to use though. Roy has so few good options that if it weren't for his dash dance and wavedash, I would place him below Bowser even with the Marth-esque grab range. It is all about option select and option coverage. Many of those characters have difficult edgeguard and off-the-edge and from-the-ledge options that it is sometimes more dangerous to do an edgeguard then to reset to neutral and just win that again. Not to mention, so many of them just lose to Shiek.

The difficulty that comes along with the S tier characters is usually in execution. The reason why this difficulty seems to exist is because so many people play them that it took less time to optimize them. In order to be the best, character optimization is a big deal 13-14 years into the game. That said, optimal low-tier options will always lose to optimal high-tier options in neutral.

That said, I love playing low-tiers and main(ed?) Ness. I am currently switching to my secondary, Fox, so I can try to further my growth as a player. I may or may not go back. I will forever play friendlies with him though.

 

[Thy Knight]

Gimpyfish isn't very active as far as I know. There are very few Bowser mains, though there are many Bowser players. Once Eikelmann saw me playing Bowser and said something along the lines of "Dude there are only like 4 Bowser mains, counting you".


Long live the Koopa King indeed! But if you don't have much experience with Melee's common matchups you're gonna get creamed entering with Bowser. Just watch out for Shiek and Marth, as those are practically 100:0 matchups.

Hahah! All right, I'll keep a look-out for them. In all honesty though, I'm just stoked to be able to test my skill against some of melee's fierce competitors.

 

[Squire]

I can't think of many pure Bowser mains. Most are "bowser mains" when it's convenient then switch when the chips are down to a character they're clearly better with. They just like the novelty of being called a Bowser main.

As a Mario main, I love facing Bowsers in tournament. It just feels appropriate. I wish there were more.

 

[Double Helix]

I know as a Ness main I'm currently in this weird transition spot where I am definitely a better Ness player, but get better results with Fox.

 

[Squire]

Ness is tricky to play and easy to punish in my experience, even if you're good with the character. That's probably what it is. Fox is pretty technical and not exactly someone you can just pick up and be good with quickly, but it's less of an uphill battle to use Fox than it is to use Ness, even if you're very good with Ness, at a certain level of play.

 

[Double Helix]

Yeah I know. I actually have fairly good success on Fox. And by success I mean a good showing considering I went into the tournament practicing only Ness. I have Ness videos that are online if you just youtube Double Helix. It is decent play that I'm not always happy with, but I didn't get all of my games on the recording setup. My Fox game ended up getting on there but my Ness has more games.

 

[Squire]

Just checked out your Ness. Damn dude. Pretty slick.

 

[Double Helix]

Thanks. I've worked hard. I really feel like I could do more with Fox so I'm practicing Fox things. I really really love low tiers. They are a lot of fun.

 

[kingPiano]

Although I've played very little Melee (And I mean VERY LITTLE) , theres so much buzz surrounding the game now'a days that I'm considering entering tournaments to test the waters. I've seen plenty of Grand Finals videos featuring either Fox, Marth or Sheik though, and I really dislike the versatility of the character match-ups that go on in those tourneys.

That's pretty much the sole reason of why I'm going to go into Melee with Bowser being my one and only main. I know I'm going to get wrecked, but I'm still going to stick it through with Bowser. I'm just interested to experience how it is to face a Fox player who's on point with his tech. It's unfortunate that I don't see any guides on how to use Bowser in Melee though, and in addition to that theres barely any videos of a Bowser in tournament.

We'll see how it goes,

Long live the Koopa King! (right?)

It's pretty straight forward: Ledge attack < 100 never over 100. Up-B OoS is your everything and it can easily KO. Use Koopa Klaw grab a lot and use it from ledge for back throw KOs. Fair, Bair, Ftilt, and Utilt are the fastest easiest to hit and KO with. Upair is so strong but hard to time. Down-B to grab ledge from high. Use grounded Whirling Fortress (Up-B) to retreat, auto grab ledge and then get up attack or mix up.

The sad thing about Bowser is that pretty much all of Fox's moves actually have the same if not more KO potential and are of course MUCH faster as well. Add in the fact that Fox is like a 1/4 the size and about 4x as fast, now that is depressing and a great example of terrible game design.

Oh and just know that on FD you are going to get wrecked as Bowser, it is one of the worst character to stage deficits in the game. Learn platform movement, you will need to master it with Bowser. It's the only thing that can make Bowser seem like a fast character and allow him to contend with top tiers. Yoshi's Story is where Bowser dominates for a ton of reasons.

 

[Thy Knight]

It's pretty straight forward: Ledge attack < 100 never over 100. Up-B OoS is your everything and it can easily KO. Use Koopa Klaw grab a lot and use it from ledge for back throw KOs. Fair, Bair, Ftilt, and Utilt are the fastest easiest to hit and KO with. Upair is so strong but hard to time. Down-B to grab ledge from high. Use grounded Whirling Fortress (Up-B) to retreat, auto grab ledge and then get up attack or mix up.

The sad thing about Bowser is that pretty much all of Fox's moves actually have the same if not more KO potential and are of course MUCH faster as well. Add in the fact that Fox is like a 1/4 the size and about 4x as fast, now that is depressing and a great example of terrible game design.

Oh and just know that on FD you are going to get wrecked as Bowser, it is one of the worst character to stage deficits in the game. Learn platform movement, you will need to master it with Bowser. It's the only thing that can make Bowser seem like a fast character and allow him to contend with top tiers. Yoshi's Story is where Bowser dominates for a ton of reasons.

Thanks for the tips! Personally, if I win with Bowser against a Fox, it makes me feel good because I know I outplayed him as a player.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Bowser's wavedash is actually pretty useful for spacing. His waveland makes his movement not terrible on stages with platforms, he can actually move pretty quickly if you know how to platform waveland well. It's very similar to Ganondorf's movement. UpB OoS is definitely not his only good move. It's his best tool for sure, but he has good moves like fair, uair, and the Koopa Klaw. While he doesn't have nearly as many good moves as better characters, he still has options.

His waveland is good. His wavedash is garbo. For neutral his up air is very situational, his klaw gets beaten by any move faster than falcon punch due to slooooow startup and fair is pretty unsafe on shield unless you retreat it but cause bowsers jumpsquad is sooo slow fox can get out of his shield and force you to shield instead for it. Then he has actual shield pressure you have to worry about.

The moves are usable in their specific situations but they're not good enough for me to consider them good in a game where every relevant character has at least a move that does what bowsers moves do but better and with more situations you can use them in.
Also ganons movement is still bad.

 

[gmBottles]

His waveland is good. His wavedash is garbo. For neutral his up air is very situational, his klaw gets beaten by any move faster than falcon punch due to slooooow startup and fair is pretty unsafe on shield unless you retreat it but cause bowsers jumpsquad is sooo slow fox can get out of his shield and force you to shield instead for it. Then he has actual shield pressure you have to worry about.

The moves are usable in their specific situations but they're not good enough for me to consider them good in a game where every relevant character has at least a move that does what bowsers moves do but better and with more situations you can use them in.
Also ganons movement is still bad.

Yeah I'm not trying to say his moves can beat other characters like Fox, I'm saying they have their uses. For when you get stuck in shield you have up b OoS which can clank or pop them up. If it clanks you can just up b again since its such a fast move.
And Ganon's movement is bad at a basic level, but at a very advanced level (see Bizzaro Flame) he can move around the stage pretty well. And his wavedash isn't that bad, just the timing has to be very precise.

 

[Thy Knight]

Well, I'll do my best to get around or otherwise negate Bowser's weaknesses.

But a little bit off-topic, I'd like to ask how to exactly "execute" an Up-B Out of Shield. Or rather any defensive option OoS. Very scrubbish to ask I know, but I tried to Up-B while holding shield and it didn't work. I'm guessing it's not as simple as simply letting go of shield and then pressing Up-B.. Is it?

 

[gmBottles]

Well, I'll do my best to get around or otherwise negate Bowser's weaknesses.

But a little bit off-topic, I'd like to ask how to exactly "execute" an Up-B Out of Shield. Or rather any defensive option OoS. Very scrubbish to ask I know, but I tried to Up-B while holding shield and it didn't work. I'm guessing it's not as simple as simply letting go of shield and then pressing Up-B.. Is it?

What I do for up b OoS is flick the c stick up to jump OoS and slide my finger to B and do the up B. It'll take practice, but once you get it down it becomes pretty easy. And don't worry about looking "scrubbish" dawg, you gotta learn somehow right?

 

[kingPiano]

Well, I'll do my best to get around or otherwise negate Bowser's weaknesses.

But a little bit off-topic, I'd like to ask how to exactly "execute" an Up-B Out of Shield. Or rather any defensive option OoS. Very scrubbish to ask I know, but I tried to Up-B while holding shield and it didn't work. I'm guessing it's not as simple as simply letting go of shield and then pressing Up-B.. Is it?

When you are first learning it, you have to think about the process. I find it easiest just to use the Analog stick & B.

You tilt the analog stick up fast (to about halfway up or all the way up), that will initiate a jump and you will be OoS at this point, you will start the jump squat animation, before you leave the ground to actually jump you need to hit B while still holding UP so you do a grounded Whirling Fortress. Bowser has a very slow jump start animation so you have plenty of time to do it.

Think of it like a rolling motion and think of the B input being delayed a bit after you tilt the analog stick up to initiate the jump, so it's like a 1 - 2 motion.

 

[Thy Knight]

When you are first learning it, you have to think about the process. I find it easiest just to use the Analog stick & B.

You tilt the analog stick up fast (to about halfway up or all the way up), that will initiate a jump and you will be OoS at this point, you will start the jump squat animation, before you leave the ground to actually jump you need to hit B while still holding up so you do a grounded Whirling Fortress. Bowser has a very slow jump start animation so you have plenty of time to do it.

Think of it like a rolling motion and think of the B input being delayed a bit after you tilt the analog stick up to initiate the jump, so it's like a 1 - 2 motion.

I knew it wasn't that simple! The way I was doing it was too slow. Thank you!

 

[gmBottles]

That was a much better explanation than mine.
I see you main Bowser in PM too, it'll work the same way in that as well.

 

[Thy Knight]

That was a much better explanation than mine.
I see you main Bowser in PM too, it'll work the same way in that as well.

Oops, I actually didn't notice your previous post there.

No way bud! The way you put it was fine as well, it's just a different method of executing it. By the way, I see you use Bowser in EVERY installment of Smash! How do you feel about the Smash 4 Bowser? I really don't like his new moves, personally. He's a koopa/monster, not a damn soccer player!

 

[gmBottles]

Oops, I actually didn't notice your previous post there.

No way bud! The way you put it was fine as well, it's just a different method of executing it. By the way, I see you use Bowser in EVERY installment of Smash! How do you feel about the Smash 4 Bowser? I really don't like his new moves, personally. He's a koopa/monster, not a damn soccer player!

Bowser is a beast in Sm4sh. He is so fast for no reason and actually has a pretty good offstage game because of his improved recovery. But I don't really play much Sm4sh. Or Brawl. It's mostly Melee with a little PM on the side.

 

[Massive]

The best way to get good with Bowser in melee is to get good with another character and then switch to Bowser.

Starting the game cold and trying to figure it all out with such a limited character will be borderline impossible.
I say this as someone with large amounts of low-tier experience, playing a better character and getting a more general understanding of the game makes your low tiers better too. I can make Kirby, Bowser, Ness, and G&W look nearly viable as far as movement and execution are concerned, but I can only do that because of the knowledge I've gained from maining Sheik, Puff, Marth, and briefly Falco in my long career.

For low tiers, an intimate understanding of your opponent's character is almost required to succeed. You need to know what they can do as well or better than they do if you want to win.

 

[gmBottles]

The best way to get good with Bowser in melee is to get good with another character and then switch to Bowser.

Starting the game cold and trying to figure it all out with such a limited character will be borderline impossible.
I say this as someone with large amounts of low-tier experience, playing a better character and getting a more general understanding of the game makes your low tiers better too. I can make Kirby, Bowser, Ness, and G&W look nearly viable as far as movement and execution are concerned, but I can only do that because of the knowledge I've gained from maining Sheik, Puff, Marth, and briefly Falco in my long career.

For low tiers, an intimate understanding of your opponent's character is almost required to succeed. You need to know what they can do as well or better than they do if you want to win.

This is definitely true. I mained Jigglypuff for a year before switching to Bowser, and a lot of the things I knew about playing Puff carries over to Bowser as well. I'd say playing characters that are actually good will help you a lot, not just with doing well in general but in learning the basics of Melee quickly.

 

[Thy Knight]

I don't know.. I feel like I'd be too used to the top tiers to come back to a low tier if I took that route. I'm not saying I wont consider it, however.

In terms of actually playing a top tier at the start, how does MewTwo or Dr.Mario sound for starters? Are they simply too low on the tier list aswell? What would you recommend? (Please don't say Fox.)