Ground Wizard Kick

[Slashy]

What is the best use for this move? I often used it in team matches in Melee, and as a killing move when I thought my F-air was becoming predictable for punishing foolish approaches from my opponent or the damage staling from f-air would actually keep it from being a good killing move

 

[KOkingpin]

A good way to use the Down B is using it right after you land a Side B then they tech roll away from you (it works on a lot of characters if they just tech in place as well.)

 

[DMG]

^^^

Down B in a lot of situations will punish standing tech, no tech, and tech away. Also good for edge guarding certain recoveries

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah tech chasing is the best option i would say for it, since ganon can set up these chases very well and it yeilds a very good chance to kill. that was the other option i was gonna say DMG. if u jump and wizards foot right over the edge u can out prioritize a lot of the casts recoveries and its a very powerful spike, so u will most likely get the kill unless they are at like 0 percent and have absurd vertical recovery.

also i havent really tested this since i tend to use it more sparingly, but can an opponent sheild grab wizards foot? if not it could be a useful cross up. ill test this out later

 

[Naggy]

Keep in mind that they can still ledge tech it if they predict an edge guard.

 

[G13_Flux]

well if you place it right then they wont be able to. if you make it so wizards foots trajectory is slightly offset from the ledge (as in, your a distance away from the ledge when u pass it, not right next to it) then the opponent wont be able to SDI enough to even reach the ledge. I think SDI teching is much more useful against this move when its used on the ground, since its horizontal trajectory allows one to easily SDI straight down and immediately tech when the wizards foot connects. They can do this at any percent as well, which is why its best not to be predictable wit it.

 

[Magus420]

You can't collide with floors using SDI (you can SDI to hit walls/ceilings though). You can only hit them with ASDI which is combined with the 1st frame of KB, so hitting the floor with it eventually becomes impossible when the vertical part of the KB gets strong enough.

DIing wizkick down stops working at 85-90 or so.

 

[G13_Flux]

ah ok. i had noticed that i can usually SDI down (and in holding the control stick down, turns into ASDI im pretty sure once KB hits) and tech something along the floor. naturaly i guess its easy to think that you could do that at any percent without knowledge of the details. I have seen your video on youtube about where u play jiggs and use double stick DI to survive a multitude of powerful attacks, but i guess i should have paid attention to the percents that jiggs was at, as very few of the scenarios involved jiggs over 100%. thanks for clearing it up though.

how about platforms? say you were on YI, and ganon wizard foots you close to the edge. would an SDI upwards into the platform work? or do platforms function the same as floors. (that might be a stupid question, but the way platforms function with being able to drop through them leads me to believe they could function differently than regular stage floors in regards to SDI teching).

 

[DMG]

The video of Jiggs IIRC was also on Kongo Jungle, in the center. Easier to tech/SDI/DI low to the flooring because of the slopes nearby.

Nvm, musta been a different video. The one I'm talking about, she eats something retardedly strong and uses tech rolling + rolling on stage + Pound to slow her momentum massively.

 

[Magus420]

Platforms are like a normal floor but you can drop through them, so no SDI teching on them either.

Double stick DI (1 2) can change that limit to around 135 or so. I could probably count the number of people I've seen use it other than myself over the past 7 years or so on one hand though. People often mistake DIing already low trajectory attacks like spacies' d-smashes into the ground and teching as it, when those don't even need separate ASDI using the c-stick to be techable at high damages.

Generally, DSDI teching stops working at or before you'd start dying by just using normal survival DI on angles above 50-55 or so iirc. It stops working a decent while after normal DI starts to kill you on the common diagonal trajectory (sakurai angle/361, which is basically 44 vs ground and 45 vs air). Ground wizkick uses that angle. On lower angles it's techable well beyond normal KO percent, and on very low ones techable beyond KO percent by just holding down/away by itself.

 

[G13_Flux]

ah ok good to know. yeah it seems to require a good level of prediction and muscle memory with the controls and without that constant prediction, its really hard to practice it and get better unless u go into training mode and have another player attack you to develop the muscle memory. often times, ill attempt to WD backwards if i sense an on coming attack, so that i can punish afterwards. sometimes, if i mess up the spacing, ill get hit by the attack, but the WD (diagonally down and R) causes me to tech along the ground. ive been trying to practice floor techs a lot more to help me survive later after noticing this sort of coincidence phenomenom, which has also lead me to that observation about ganons WF. but that information clears up a lot and will definitely help me from here on out. thanks.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

In my opinion, I think the wizard kick has a lot of end lag and that even with its high collision power it's a bit risky. Sure it's situational, but it doesn't help that's its so predictable (ganon relys on his kick far more than falcon)

I'm probably going to get a lot of criticism from this, but what if ganon did a backflip off his wizard kick when he hits an opponents shield? Similar to when he hits a wall.

Would it be op? Would it change his play style?

 

[CORY]

yeah, it would. you use wizard kick to punish tech's and bad rolls, and occasionally, whiffed attacks. it's not something you just throw out on a whim. it was buffed from melee to essentially have no sour spot, so it's very powerful the whole way through. the risk to that reward is that you're VERY open if you mess up and get read/baited into using it.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

Okay so you use wizard kick to punish techs and bad rolls. So what happens in the case it somehow fails, even in the best of circumstances? I still think the risk far outweighs the reward.

The way I see it, wizard kick is slow, predictable, limited in use, and very vulnerable in the case that you ever do use it. If his wizard kick didn't leave him so vulnerable it could be used as another approach option, which is what he desperately needs in my opinion.

 

[CORY]

if it somehow fails? you mean... you didn't predict their roll or tech properly and then you get punished for it?

he doesn't need another approach option. his fair is an amazing spacing tool that can be mixed up with his other aerials on approach. you can space out f/dtilt if the opponent tries to shield your aerials. if you condition your opponent to shield, guess what? you have aerial overb (remember, you like being in the air already) to set up tech chase options, of which downb covers most of (tech in place; no tech with no delayed get up/attack/roll; tech away). it's not an approach option, it's a high risk high reward punishing move.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

I could see his fair being a good approach option but forward tilt? That isn't an approach option that's a 'get off me' move.

The problem with approaching with ganon is that he has poor mobility, has no projectiles or disjointed hitboxes, and is slow. Even Ike, another hard hitter was given a jump cancel on his quick draw, thus increasing his mobility. Ike is already faster than ganon and he's got greater spacing with his sword. I fail to see how ganon is on level with that.

 

[teluoborg]

Yeah clearly Ganon can't approach at all.

Aw man, if only he had a move with great horizontal range that could beat shields and be used in the air, then he would be able to mix up and be less predictable.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

The flame choke can easily be avoided by faster characters and is quite easy to interrupt for anyone with a projectile or sword. I'm pretty sure I've even seen a normal grab beat it.

Even when ganon is in a winning position, he's never really in control of the stage. On top of that, ganon isn't safe enough to go on the offensive and is forced to simply punish the opponents own mistakes. Whether it be a button error or just poor judgment. At least that's the only viable way I've been able to play him.

Also bear in mind that pretty much all the melee top tiers were offensive characters not defensive. Reason?

 

[Ace55]

bear in mind that pretty much all the melee top tiers were offensive characters not defensive. Reason?

Marth, Sheik, Jiggs are offensive?

 

[KeyOfTruth]

Marth, Sheik, Jiggs are offensive?

Yes I believe all three of those characters can force ganon on the defensive.

Although I will not argue that those three are also defense viable opposed to ganon, who is more so limited to defensive play.

 

[teluoborg]

I think the term you're not understanding here is "mix up".

Any option can be beaten if taken individually.

 

[WeenusChu]

Been using Wiz Kick to punish low durability projectile spamming.

Standing Wiz Kick is pretty strong near edge as well. Gives Ganon huge off-stage mobility.
Experiment with that usage, it's pretty good there.

Outside of this, there are some situations where you can use Wiz Kick as a makeshift conventional F-smash.
D-air L-cancel Grab D-Throw Wiz Kick is a consistent 50% combo from 0%.
It puts most people off stage, so in some matchups that's pretty great.

 

[Ace55]

It's also pretty great for ending chaingrabs vs spacies.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

They should just change the name of the move to "Bionic Leg" or just simply "RESPECT ME".

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

if it somehow fails? you mean... you didn't predict their roll or tech properly and then you get punished for it?

he doesn't need another approach option. his fair is an amazing spacing tool that can be mixed up with his other aerials on approach. you can space out f/dtilt if the opponent tries to shield your aerials. if you condition your opponent to shield, guess what? you have aerial overb (remember, you like being in the air already) to set up tech chase options, of which downb covers most of (tech in place; no tech with no delayed get up/attack/roll; tech away). it's not an approach option, it's a high risk high reward punishing move.

His F-Air isn't as great a spacing tool as people would like to think.

It IS a good move, yes. But, you're suggesting that people are going to respect it.

F-Air has quite a bit of startup, and nutty players will just mash something stupid and stuff it.

You can argue that the Ganon getting stuffed out of moves has bad spacing, but when you consider that Ganon is a character who can get klink'd out of strong moves with seemingly weaker ones (Ganon Kick doesn't beat Falco's dash attack when they collide, as an example)

When it comes to approach options, I'd like to see more for this character.

No, making Ganon Kick into a new Sonic spin dash is not the way, but I'd like to see SOMETHING.

 

[jruzzin]

I've found it's super useful against Zelda. Zelda is so strong now, and I haven't been able to beat my friend with anybody except for Ganon, who isn't my best character. He likes to shield grab a lot, so the wizard kick has been great for surprising him, and avoiding his shield grabs. Even if he successfully shields the wizard kick I go past him, making it so he can't grab me without turning around, which gives me enough time to recover anyway.

 

[WizKick]

^^^

Down B in a lot of situations will punish standing tech, no tech, and tech away. Also good for edge guarding certain recoveries

Quote for truth, especially if they aren't great at sweet spotting.

I use the move a lot though, as a random mixup. So far it's been good for punishing random Dash Dancing and for tech chasing.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

His F-Air isn't as great a spacing tool as people would like to think.

It IS a good move, yes. But, you're suggesting that people are going to respect it.

F-Air has quite a bit of startup, and nutty players will just mash something stupid and stuff it.

You can argue that the Ganon getting stuffed out of moves has bad spacing, but when you consider that Ganon is a character who can get klink'd out of strong moves with seemingly weaker ones (Ganon Kick doesn't beat Falco's dash attack when they collide, as an example)

When it comes to approach options, I'd like to see more for this character.

No, making Ganon Kick into a new Sonic spin dash is not the way, but I'd like to see SOMETHING.

The biggest problem with relying on F-air as a approach option is the fact you must jump. So how are you supposed to be unpredictable when your opponent can clearly see that your jumping? It absolutely doesn't help that Ganon's jump is slow and his N-air is pretty slow compared to most other characters.

 

[KeyOfTruth]

Quote for truth, especially if they aren't great at sweet spotting.

I use the move a lot though, as a random mixup. So far it's been good for punishing random Dash Dancing and for tech chasing.

I'm not arguing that the wizards foot is complete trash, I'm just saying you currently cannot use it to approach period. Wizards foot is simply stuck as a situational move that will rarely see any beneficial use outside of punishing poor play. That certainly doesn't sit well with me when he already has a useless move.

 

[Scuba Steve]

[quote="G13_Flux, post: 15259712, member: 217012"if u jump and wizards foot right over the edge u can out prioritize a lot of the casts recoveries and its a very powerful spike, so u will most likely get the kill unless they are at like 0 percent and have absurd vertical recovery.[/quote]
Eh, I would actually say that this is a pretty bad option. Yes, if it lands, it will send them down very far and they will more than likely die. However, Ganon's hitbox on an aerial wizard's foot is terrible, with his foot hurtbox extending way past his hitbox. Along with this, if you miss it, you will have just put yourself in an awful position, since your opponent can just grab ledge and either edgehog you, gimp you with a quick aerial, or force you to recover on stage where they can start wailing on you while you sit in the abysmal endlag on Ganon's up-b.

 

[VashEXE]

I'm not arguing that the wizards foot is complete trash, I'm just saying you currently cannot use it to approach period. Wizards foot is simply stuck as a situational move that will rarely see any beneficial use outside of punishing poor play. That certainly doesn't sit well with me when he already has a useless move.

Punishing a tech is alot different from "punishing poor play". Warlock Kick isn't meant to be an approach, like everybody else has said. It's meant to be a punishing tool. If you're using this in neutral frequently you're doing it wrong.

The biggest problem with relying on F-air as a approach option is the fact you must jump. So how are you supposed to be unpredictable when your opponent can clearly see that your jumping? It absolutely doesn't help that Ganon's jump is slow and his N-air is pretty slow compared to most other characters.

Like everybody was saying about Flame Choke, you're Ganon you should WANT to be in the air. If you notice they're shielding alot of your Fairs, mix it up and do a Flame Choke instead. It's like rock paper scissors. Ganon relies alot on being able to read your opponent since he's so damn slow, it sounds like you might be having issues with more than just Ganon. If I were you I would focus on trying to figure out what your opponent is going to do before he does it. This is one of the biggest parts of smash and once you start to get the hang of reading and conditioning your opponents to do things, your Ganon will play much better as well as all of your other characters.