Ground Breaking Yoshi's Grab: A sad day for yoshi players.

[Deleted member]

Yep thats right. TKD figured out(or im not sure if he discovered it, but he showed me), that you can ground break yoshis grab. I wont elaborate on how to do it, ill ask him to maybe, but it works, he was ground breakin my grabs around 1/3 of the time, im sure with practice at least half of them would be ground breaks. I know its hit and miss, and it doesnt work after a certain percent i think. So potentially this means, no Cgs, no grab release KOs, no nothing. Just jab.
=(

 

[Big Red]

that's bad...

Make sure he doesn't tell anyone <.<

 

[Deleted member]

Id rather help the game evolve than hide something that could help players fight against yoshi. I dont really care, just make up new trix and stuff, im pretty sure its impossible to do 100% of the time cuz its slightly luck based? Im not sure, i need to ask him the exact details on why it works.

 

[Big Red]

Just joking, but yeah, there are probably some decent follow ups after a grounbreak too.

Ground break->Down-B. I like :D

 

[Chaco]

I knew it would happen. Ever since that guy broke on you before.

 

[Deleted member]

Me? I dont have vids.

But i filmed some offline stuff today so next week i prolly will ahve some =D

 

[Chaco]

Must have been Bwett then.

And ground break to down B could be a bigger threat in some situations.

 

[Sharky]

I was thinking the same thing, Chaco. Sockz, can you check that out? =)

 

[Deleted member]

I cant do the ground break, its hard. Uhh in a week i can find out tho. Sounds tasty, whats the start up time on down b tho.

 

[Chaco]

Very little, it comes out really quick.

And think about it, if you could get a few chains in and then down b from it. Pretty dank. Since it could take em awhile to get it right.

 

[Poltergust]

Well, I think Yoshi's down-B comes out in 6-7 frames.

Anyways, I thought that if a player acts fast enough they can always ground-break Yoshi's grab-release...? Doesn't Yoshi ground-break them if they get out of the grab immediately as they get grabbed? Or is there another way?

 

[Bwett]

I believe it can only work on the second grab and on. So if you grab someone, they shouldnt be able to ground break. However, if you do a CG after that, it is possible. Do not quote this for complete truth but I want to say this is true. Both UTD Zac and DMG can do it pretty consistently to me. I'm glad yoshi's aren't avoiding the subject after I said it before. Gj Burnt

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm interesting bwett, ill try to find out exactly how it works.

I guess we will just have to adapt.

 

[Shiri]

I've been dealing with ground breaks for about a month now.

They're not very easy for opposing players to do, even if they know how to do it. It's also not hard to deal with ground breaks and adjusting accordingly can expand your overall mental agility.

I posted on Yoshi's ground break in Brawl Tactical a few months ago, I think. I'll go look for the post; the actual break isn't hard to do at all. I had actually assumed you guys knew how it worked, or I would have posted it here a long time ago. o_0;

P.S. - Here we go: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5327821. It's not terribly in depth, but the point is that if the opponent struggles quickly enough before they enter Yoshi's mouth (happens most often during a standing grab, but even the quicker dash grabs can be broken from), they will ground break immediately upon entering Yoshi's mouth. Unfortunately, (a sad note most of my "research" posts will have), since we don't really have an Action Replay to work with or any reliable frame and hitbox data, I cannot 100% guarantee the validity of this, but it's been my experience and has shown to be consistent in all cases across the board.

 

[Poltergust]

That's basically what I just said, but in greater detail. I thought that most Yoshi players already knew this...? >.>

I mean in the Yoshi match-up thread, where Wario is in the well-known match-ups, it says that Wario could possibly escape it if he is under 50%. That implies Yoshi's ground-break, no?

 

[Silent Beast]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209846

According to this thread, it takes 30 frames for every character not named Bowser (who needs only 20) to recover after the opponent ground-breaks a grab. It also says that it takes every character 30 frames to recover after ground-breaking a grab, except for DK at 20 frames and Ness/Lucas at 40 frames. While I'm guessing Ref did not test for the ground break against Yoshi, based on this video, it looks like Yoshi also suffers 30 frames of lag, as he and the other character (Wario, in this case) seem to recover at the same time after the ground break (30 frames).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB1X7FPeRwg (ground break at 2:01)

So, it looks like there won't be any guaranteed down-B, unless you're fighting a Mother boy. Characters with really fast jabs, like ZSS or Squirtle, or DK, who gets his 10 frame advantage, should be able to hit Yoshi before he can counter with anything.

 

[JOE!]

well, its not that big a deal, players still have to actually workd kinda fast to ground-break, so we can still get in our cg's, etc, etc most of the time

 

[Chaco]

So do we have any insight on Ground Break to Down B?

And also, this might be the same thing that causes the Egg Lay escape. Is they struggle at the very beginning it doesn't give him time to get them in and it times out.

 

[Deleted member]

No egg lay escape is hitbox related.

Also shiri, i think this might be different than what ur thinking of, this would happen right after a grab attack I recall. Thats the instant grab break where u get out immediatly when you are grabbed. Maybe its the same, dunno.

Fun stuff on MK-> Begin Chain grab, when he ground releases, jab combo to grab, continue chaingrabbing, rinse and repeat MK is at low percents. =)

 

[Shiri]

Yeah, Egg Lay is definitely hitbox stuff.

Sockz, we may or may not be thinking of the same thing, but I have a feeling we are.

Either way, I don't think this impacts Yoshi's grab game as much as you think it does (or as much as I am inferring that you think it does). Grabbing with Yoshi is pretty easy to do. While it may sound oversimplified, my thoughts are, "They got out? Just...grab them again." Again, my mentality may be what's making this seem like not a big deal to me.

 

[Deleted member]

Indeed, i think i overreacted XD

I wasnt sure if other people knew about it, i guess they did O_o
Yea, ill experiment with other ground release stuff.

 

[Chaco]

Okay lol didn't know that.

And it's not a huge impact. Especially if Down B from it works. Then it might actually help us.

 

[JOE!]

that and you could allways just grab again, i mean theyre right there

 

[salaboB]

P.S. - Here we go: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5327821. It's not terribly in depth, but the point is that if the opponent struggles quickly enough before they enter Yoshi's mouth (happens most often during a standing grab, but even the quicker dash grabs can be broken from), they will ground break immediately upon entering Yoshi's mouth. Unfortunately, (a sad note most of my "research" posts will have), since we don't really have an Action Replay to work with or any reliable frame and hitbox data, I cannot 100% guarantee the validity of this, but it's been my experience and has shown to be consistent in all cases across the board.

Was it ever demonstrated that it wasn't during a chomp?

iirc, the whole thing ended up being if Yoshi doesn't bite, nobody can ground break even during the initial part of the grab.

 

[Mmac]

If you don't Chew as soon as he enters (Which Stalls the opponents model location), he won't break to the ground. I already went through this in October.

Plus it's physically impossible to break out of the pull in grab in real time. In fact, even if you DID manage to, it would freeze the game!

Seriously, this has been brought up every month since DMG brought it up, just don't chew and you'll be fine.

 

[Shiri]

Mmac and guy above Mmac whose name reminds me of Salad, this is different.

You guys are thinking of breaking when the opponent is already grabbed and in Yoshi's mouth. I'm talking about opponents breaking while being pulled in. From my experience, if this occurs, they do not break immediately upon reaching the input limit--instead, they are still pulled in and break immediately upon entering Yoshi's mouth. You can reach the input limit while being pulled in--I've done this to my old training partner when he has picked Yoshi on me before (for whatever reason) and he's done it to me plenty of times in tournament. And by plenty, I mean close to maybe five or six. It's possible, especially at low percents.

 

[bigman40]

And now for a huge post.....


CG is not needed to beat people! That is all

 

[Mmac]

Mmac and guy above Mmac whose name reminds me of Salad, this is different.

You guys are thinking of breaking when the opponent is already grabbed and in Yoshi's mouth. I'm talking about opponents breaking while being pulled in. From my experience, if this occurs, they do not break immediately upon reaching the input limit--instead, they are still pulled in and break immediately upon entering Yoshi's mouth. You can reach the input limit while being pulled in--I've done this to my old training partner when he has picked Yoshi on me before (for whatever reason) and he's done it to me plenty of times in tournament. And by plenty, I mean close to maybe five or six. It's possible, especially at low percents.

Yeah, even if being pulled in, he STILL Releases to the air, so as long as Yoshi doesn't chews. I can never recreate a ground break under any possibility if Yoshi does nothing when he escapes.

 

[SOVAman]

And now for a huge post.....


CG is not needed to beat people! That is all

Thx you so much I barley use the CG and people are making a big deal about who and who is not CGable and so on honestly almost all the CGs are useless except the ones that can be Uair after the release or UpSmashed

 

[JackieRabbit5]

ah i get it now, that is unfortunate...at least its hard to do and not well known

its just annoying to me that yoshi's CG has a flaw like this but like DeDeDe's, IC's, or Falco's don't really

 

[Shiri]

It happens when you play a fair character, LOL.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

so what exactly is ground break, when da character being grabed slides away on the ground instead of being launched into da air after

 

[Ref]

Well just a bit of information...

There is only 1 frame where I see character X, in this case Ness out side of yoshi's mouth, this is actually the frame where yoshi grabs Ness I don't know the start up though.... This was a grab at pretty much point blank...

On a grab of further distance I saw 3...

On the furthest grab possible 7...

On a grab where yoshi grabbed ness from a distance further than the grab range because Ness did a jab...
I counted 15!!!!

Also these frames counted toward the 90 that the grab has at 0%


The final test was if players could input buttons while yoshi is reeling them in...

The answer was Yes, meaning if the opponent is far enough away and you grab them, if they input atleast 12 commands at 0 percent assuming you grabbed them at the 15 mark... They can break out before they even get into your mouth...

 

[Mmac]

Even during maximum distance, they still break out in the air though. You can't Break out DURING the pull in, but you can still input for a grab break and as a result, you'll break as soon as you enter the mouth.

I tested this over and over and over again, the opponent can't ground break if Yoshi doesn't do anything.

 

[Silent Beast]

Ref, are those numbers the same for the standing, dash, and pivot grabs?

 

[bigman40]

lol Silent Beast lives up to his account name xD He posts ONLY when he needs to.

 

[Ref]

Ref, are those numbers the same for the standing, dash, and pivot grabs?

Standing grab,

To Mmac, okay. So they can break out once they enter Yoshi's mouth, if you are correct.

The only way to know if you are correct Mmac is that if you know you inputted a button on 12 frames while being dragged in. So there is not much way to confirm that but I'll take your word for it...

You can probably come really close to being sure of it with 1/4 time + timers...

 

[Silent Beast]

Standing grab,

Then could you be even more awesome and test the dash and pivot grabs too?

lol Silent Beast lives up to his account name xD He posts ONLY when he needs to.

Sigged, sir.

 

[PKNintendo]

Okay, so i've tried to break out of Yoshi's grab. It's quite difficult. DMG is an exceptional grab escaper, he mashes buttons like crazy, maybe thats why he escaped.

OP, you shouldn't worry. I mean saying that Yoshi' s grab game is useless is like saying DDD infinite on 5 characters is useless, since you can escape fast enough before getting inifinited (inbetween the pummels)

even with this knowledge, people still wanted this banned, and it still wrecks with those characters.
Yoshi's grab game will not falter.

 

[.Marik]

Thx you so much I barley use the CG and people are making a big deal about who and who is not CGable and so on honestly almost all the CGs are useless except the ones that can be Uair after the release or UpSmashed

This is true, for the most part.

Dead on accurate, if you ask me. But you can also Nair with Yoshi sometimes once they are over the edge.

Works a lot, if you ask me. =P

But I bet you already knew that.