Greninja Wavedashing

[unkn0wnn00b]

I found out that you can do a ''wavedash'' with the Up B.
I think it can be really useful for spacing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOHFlqqCVb4

 

[Tristan_win]

Does anyone else find it hilarious the play on words here?

Still a neat trick, I wonder how good it would be for Anti air and recoveries

 

[o-Serin-o]

To be honest, it's a necessity that you learn how to edgeguard with that. Sets up for easy off-stage opportunities for a F-air.

 

[unkn0wnn00b]

To be honest, it's a necessity that you learn how to edgeguard with that. Sets up for easy off-stage opportunities for a F-air.

the problem is you can only go backwards but you can still turn around afterwards the lag isnt that big

 

[Chiroz]

the problem is you can only go backwards but you can still turn around afterwards the lag isnt that big

I think he means pushing with the water. Also this was discovered long ago, its what I myself called the "Mario FLUDD" in my first post. There's a video about it from about 3 weeks ago.



The problem with using this as a "dash" is that you are stuck for a very long time in lag which isn't good. Also it covers less distance than if you were to just walk that time. It gives no advantages to just walking.

It's still useful to use it as if it was Mario's FLUDD for edgeguarding. If you angle it further down you start moving less and less (which sometimes is better depending on where you are in the map). Try it on the edge to push your opponents slightly upwards, if they aren't expecting it you might be able to get a smash or an aerial out of it.

 

[Ganreizu]

It gives no advantages to just walking.

Walking doesn't push people away while you move away, so that's a lie.

 

[Chiroz]

Walking doesn't push people away while you move away, so that's a lie.

If you use it as a dash..., it says it right before. Using it as a dash and using it to push your opponent are 2 completely different things.

 

[Ganreizu]

If you use it as a dash..., it says it right before. Using it as a dash and using it to push your opponent are 2 completely different things.

Who said anything about punishing?

 

[Chiroz]

Who said anything about punishing?

My post says push, NOT punish. That's twice you haven't even read what I wrote correctly, read before you post.



Also, if you push your opponent away with this ability in order to "move away", depending on who your opponent is he can still dash->grab or dash->dash attack while you are still in lag from the Up-B. If you were to just run away he wouldn't reach you or you could just shield or attack back.

This technique has uses, but "mobility" isn't one of them. Trust me.

 

[Ganreizu]

It says push, read before you post. That's twice you haven't even read what I wrote correctly.

Also, if you push your opponent away with this ability in order to "move away", depending on who your opponent is he can still dash->grab or dash->dash attack while you are still in lag from the Up-B. If you were to just run away he wouldn't reach you or you could just shield or attack back.

This technique has uses, but "mobility" isn't one of them. Trust me.

I just woke up, so, you want me to wake up more before i post?

Yes, i know pushing and dashing with it are two different things. So what? The point was that it gives no advantage to walking or running, and it pushes opponents, so that's not true, because pushing opponents while moving away is an advantage to simply moving away. Whether it's effective is a different story, and it being effective in teams vs 1v1 is also two different things. It's an option. It shouldn't be devalued by players because they don't see an application for it within the first week or two.

It being matchup dependent isn't surprising.

 

[Chiroz]

Yes, i know pushing and dashing with it are two different things. So what? The point was that it gives no advantage to walking or running, and it pushes opponents, so that's not true, because pushing opponents while moving away is an advantage to simply moving away. Whether it's effective is a different story, and it being effective in teams vs 1v1 is also two different things.

It being "effective" is exactly what an advantage is. What's the purpose of pushing someone if he can punish you for it? Why wouldn't you just walk away and NOT get punished?

It seems we have different opinions. See, for me being punished by my opponent isn't an advantage. For you it seems like it is.

I don't know exactly what's good about pushing your opponent away if you are stuck in enough lag for him to come back the same distance you just pushed him and even hit you back.

 

[Ganreizu]

It being "effective" is exactly what an advantage is. What's the purpose of pushing someone if he can punish you for it? Why wouldn't you just walk away and NOT get punished?

It seems we have different opinions. See, for me, being punished by my opponent isn't an advantage. For you it seems like it is.

It's an option. It shouldn't be devalued by players because they don't see an application for it within the first week or two.

Did you not just say whether they can punish you for it is matchup dependent? It sounds like you're assuming you get punished in every situation. You might also be exaggerating the lag and distance you get.

You can dismiss my thoughts if you don't understand them, that's fine. I'm not a greninja player so maybe it's more beneficial to you to keep an open mind to this than it is for me...

 

[Chiroz]

Did you not just say whether they can punish you for it is matchup dependent? It sounds like you're assuming you get punished in every situation.

The punish you are dealt with is dependent on the movespeed. The situation it leaves you at is always worse than if you had just walked/ran. (Except you just did 2%, whoppie?)

As I said this technique has some uses and we will probably find more but "mobility" isn't one of those uses. There's a clear cut winner between this and running/walking.



Your second post makes no sense as I am comparing 2 actions. Running/Walking and doing this to "slide backwards", if something else is discovered in the future that cuts all lag from this technique or to allow yourself to slide much greater length then another comparison can be done then.

For what we know of the technique as of now: It's slower than running/walking, puts you in enough lag to be punished by characters with a decent runspeed (most characters in the roster) and even if you manage to push your opponent back with this technique while using it as a dash he will still be able to reach exactly where he was from you (distance wise) before you come out of lag.



I myself have used this ability to push people away from their attack range (push a Marth who'se about to Forward-Smash), that way he misses his attack and I can go in with a punish. That's a great use. I can see it being used on the edge to lift people up slightly to land F-Airs or F-Smashes/U-Smashes. As a "dash" it's not useful.



Also just so you know. If you really want to space out an opponent: You can just short hop and Up-B into the ground. It's essentially EXACTLY this, only it makes you slide much farther and it also pushes your opponent much farther away.

And for future reference. Yes, it is expected of you to wake up and actually read what people write before commenting on things you haven't even read. It's funny you say "don't understand me" when you didn't even understand at all the first 2 posts I quote, you didn't even know what they said.

 

[Ganreizu]

The punish you are dealt with is dependent on the movespeed. The situation it leaves you at is always worse than if you had just walked/ran. (Except you just did 2%, whoppie?)

As I said this technique has some uses and we will probably find more but "mobility" isn't one of those uses. There's a clear cut winner between this and running/walking.



Your second post makes no sense as I am comparing 2 actions. Running/Walking and doing this to "slide backwards", if something else is discovered in the future that cuts all lag from this technique or to allow yourself to slide much greater length then another comparison can be done then.

For what we know of the technique as of now: It's slower than running/walking, puts you in enough lag to be punished by characters with a decent runspeed (most characters in the roster) and even if you manage to push your opponent back with this technique while using it as a dash he will still be able to reach exactly where he was from you (distance wise) before you come out of lag.

I never suggested it would be useful as a straight up dash or as a spacing tool in the first place, like the OP suggested.

My second post made no sense for other reasons than what you said.

I myself have used this ability to push people away from their attack range (push a Marth who'se about to Forward-Smash), that way he misses his attack and I can go in with a punish. That's a great use. I can see it being used on the edge to lift people up slightly to land F-Airs or F-Smashes/U-Smashes. As a "dash" it's not useful.

This right here is literally everything that i went into this thread thinking about. This situation gives this tech an advantage over just walking, which i came in telling you was true. So, we agree with each other in the end.

 

[Chiroz]

I never suggested it would be useful as a straight up dash or as a spacing tool in the first place, like the OP suggested.

How about you READ before you start discussing.

Look at my VERY FIRST POST.

The problem with using this as a "dash" is that you are stuck for a very long time in lag which isn't good. Also it covers less distance than if you were to just walk that time. It gives no advantages to just walking.

As a rule of thumb, never post until you read the other's post completely.




Edit: Also, just so you know:

I have played with Greninja online for about 60 hours now in the past 3 weeks, I've tried using this on the stage, I discovered it on my first 2 matches you can look my post up, in fact I will link it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/greninja-impressions-and-ama.368289/

Read my 2nd post on this thread. September 15. I talk about this technique. I'll go ahead and quote myself:

"Also you can do Up-B diagonally while on the ground and it won't move you (you will just shoot the water without moving). This water will push the opponent away just like FLUDD. Do be careful though because you will have a lot of lag after doing this. I haven't found a use for this yet, but it's just good to know you basically have an almost exact replica of Mario's FLUDD available just with much less range. (About the same lag)."

Later on in the thread (or it was in another thread) I talk about how you can also slide a bit with this technique by holding the circle pad farther horizontal than vertical but I find it more useful to stay as "in place" as possible in order to use this as a way to space my opponents out.

 

[Ganreizu]

Nevermind. You might be reading what i'm saying but you're not understanding that we're agreeing with each other at this point and you're too offended to see it for some reason.

 

[Chiroz]

Nevermind. You might be reading what i'm saying but you're not understanding that we're agreeing with each other at this point and you're too offended to see it for some reason.

I understand that you never bothered to read my post before commenting and just spent 30 minutes "discussing" something I never said only to agree with me once you decided to read one of my posts completely.

I am trying to teach you that you should always read their full post before trying to discuss with someone specially if you're trying to discuss specifically about what they said.

 

[Erionn]

The only real use I've gotten out of this while playing has just been edgeguarding with the wind box, I definitely wouldn't use it in any other means considering the large amounts of lag you are in during the slide.

 

[metroidfan987]

But can you unleash a smash attack from that maneuver?

 

[Spirst]

But can you unleash a smash attack from that maneuver?

No. Greninja has lag from the animation. It's not really a wavedash so much in function as it is in slight appearance.

 

[TypePositive]

the small wave during it is useful though. Every time I've hit with that, there was about second of what the **** was that from the opponents. So far I'm thinking grennys upb is one of the best moves in the game.

 

[Chiroz]

the small wave during it is useful though. Every time I've hit with that, there was about second of what the **** was that from the opponents. So far I'm thinking grennys upb is one of the best moves in the game.

I agree. I love this move so much. It's hilarious how Mario's FLUDD was considered the worst move in Smash history and Greninja's Up-B is sooo good. Apparently all FLUDD was missing was mobility.

 

[Shack]

Awesome! So glad someone found this!

 

[CHOMPY]

At least that replaces our rolling option. Another cool thing about it is your can ledge grab really quick, and then edge guard them with a bair or up B to gimp them.. The only thing you have to be careful of is your don't SD if you were to be near the ledge.

 

[Fastblade5035]

I actually found this out today and got excited about getting gud with Greninja finally.
I use it mainly for mind games and/or zooming off and back to stage for more mind games. Its SO FUN to trick the opponent, splash away, bait them into a projectile, and Shadow Sneaking.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Nevermind. You might be reading what i'm saying but you're not understanding that we're agreeing with each other at this point and you're too offended to see it for some reason.

Excuse me?

 

[Kevandre]

I sure did this off the edge on an online match tonight. It made me pretty sad, I had been having a good few matches with the guy I was facing.

 

[Marilink]

I really want to call this technique Dashwaving. I'm a fan of wordplay.