Greninja Impressions and AMA

[Chiroz]

I am able to play the game at a friend's house. I have currently decided to main Greninja, although I might change my mind because the game is so new.

I will write a more detailed analysis on his moves and some combos probably tomorrow (too tired right now).



For the mean time here are some really COOL things I've discovered:

Greninja's Up-B can be used in very many creative ways. It works like Mario's FLUUD (it doesn't "hit you" so it doesn't take you out of free fall, it just pushes you). You can, for example, Up-B back and forth, I think this strategy should have a name as it will be very core to some of his offstage game. Against Little Mac specifically it's basically a free KO. You get Little Mac offstage, then you Up-B towards him and the away from him (do not do it in an angle otherwise it will raise him in the air and give him height, do it exactly against him which will push him away), it will push him and he won't be able to make it back at any percent.


Not very "new" but Greninja's Side-B has sort of "invincibility" on reappearance. You can Side-B into a Smash and it won't hurt you and you will hit your opponent back. I have been able to Side-B while next to my opponent to avoid certain attacks and hit them back (basically using it as a counter). The problem is, Greninja is still vulnerable while charging the Side-B and while disappearing so timing is everything for this.


Another thing is that Up-Air "sucks" the opponent in order to hit with all hits. If you hit with your Up-Air at a very specific range and fast fall the attack you will actually BRING your opponent with you. I've only been able to do it 3 times and they have happened randomly (since I always fast fall my aerials anyways). The cool thing about this is that Up-Air has barely no lag on land, so if you do close enough to the ground then you can link Up-Air into a ground smash (since landing will cut the Up-Air before the last hit knocks the opponent away)! I was actually able to do this one of the three times. Up-Throw -> Up-Air (fast fall and bring opponent with me to the ground) -> Up tilt (because I was so surprised I just did a random attack).





Something bad I found out: You can be hit out of your counter. A Toon Link killed me twice with F-Smash. I countered the first hit of the f-smash and the second hit hit me while Greninja was "coming in for the counter". You can control the direction Greninja comes from (I think, I am not sure) so just always make sure to come from your opponents back.



Ask me anything you'd like me to find out about Greninja and I will try my best.

 

[Wintropy]

Ooh, I like this guy. I've got a few questions I've been curious about, alright.

* Does Water Shuriken push back when fully charged as Mario's FLUDD does, or does it just do standard chip damage?
* How fast is he relative to other characters (a rough estimation is what I'm looking for)?
* How light is he relative to other characters (again, a rough estimation will suffice just fine)?
* What's his combo potential like?

Aaaand that's pretty much it for now. Toodles, friend~ ^_^

 

[EchoesOfRain]

Wow, I like how the pushing ability of up-B sounds. Could be very useful.

I hear that when using side-B in the air, his shadow moves along the ground. Does he still move horizontally through the air, or is he teleported to the ground?

 

[Chiroz]

Ooh, I like this guy. I've got a few questions I've been curious about, alright.

* Does Water Shuriken push back when fully charged as Mario's FLUDD does, or does it just do standard chip damage?
* How fast is he relative to other characters (a rough estimation is what I'm looking for)?
* How light is he relative to other characters (again, a rough estimation will suffice just fine)?
* What's his combo potential like?

Aaaand that's pretty much it for now. Toodles, friend~ ^_^

Charged Water Shuriken is a 3 hit move. It doesn't just push back, it's an actual multi hit move. The last hit has very good knockback, it can even kill if used against an opponent offstage.

Things very important to note: Shuriken charges extremely fast, if you're used to charging smashes or Samus charge ball you will always mistime the Shuriken as it charges faster. You cannot hold it, it is released upon full charge. The more you charge it, the slower it is and the less it travels. Basically uncharged shurikens travel extremely fast and far. I haven't seen anyone yet with "spammier" projectiles. (I was able to outspam a Toon Link and a Falco, killing their projectiles and even hitting them). Full Charged Shurikens are mostly for offstage purposes or if somehow you know your opponent will eat it. If your opponent misses a d you have a free hit on your opponent you might as well just punish him with some other attack (such as a Smash), so just charge the Shuriken if you know your opponent will do something stupid and take the shuriken to the face or to gimp offstage.




Greninja moves pretty fast on the ground. His dash attack is extremely fast, so is his down tilt and up tilt. His jab is average for a jab not that fast or slow. His Side Tilt and all of his Smashes are slow. They come out slow and have a little bit of lag after. That said, his side-tilt has HUGE range, good for spacing. His smashes are all disjointed and hit decently strong. They are his main kill moves but they kill around 100-120% uncharged so be wary.

His Up-Air and Back-Air are really fast but both are multi-hit so if you miss you might get punished. That said they both have amazing range and they both have 0 lag on land so you can chain them with other moves. His Forward-Air has a bit of a wind-up but had good knockback, it also lags a bit after the attack and landing doesn't cut the lag. It's definitely a good move if you want to knock your opponent away, but for approaches sake I would say Back-Air is much better. I don't like Down-Air at all. It's literally old Toon Link's Down Air except it doesn't spike. It makes you fall incredibly fast, there is 0 way to cancel it and it doesn't even cancel with distance I have fallen from the very top of a stage to my death with this move. If you hit someone with it you "bounce" and have 0 lag which is nice, but if you miss you either fall to your death or suffer HUGE lag, HUGE.



I can't really comment anything on his weight right now, I'll try and see what I can figure out later.




I still haven't figured out his whole combo potential. At low percents he can chain Up-Tilts, but not as well as other characters. He can throw into aerials at low %s. His dash attack is soooo good, its fast, good range and doesn't put Greninja in danger (since he sort of "sweep kicks" forward allowing his body to be away from the enemy and close to the ground) it also pops the opponent up and in front of Greninja, perfectly setting up for his aerials. Apart from that there's not much I know of right now, that Up-Aerial trick I wrote down seems to have HUGE potential, if you can master it (and it's not just random) then it might make Greninja a huge threat as an Up-Air could be chained into an Up-Smash for a kill or a tilt/throw for a longer combo string.



Other cool things:

It's good to note that Up-B makes Greninja slide a lot if you aim it towards the ground (even if you don't land) and will allow you to safely use it to return on stage instead of the ledge. Not many people can chase you at the speed Greninja "slides". This can be done to mix up your recovery or just plainly have an "100% safe recovery" against slow moving characters by just Up-Bing above their heads and then downwards towards the stage.

Also you can do Up-B diagonally while on the ground and it won't move you (you will just shoot the water without moving). This water will push the opponent away just like FLUDD. Do be careful though because you will have a lot of lag after doing this. I haven't found a use for this yet, but it's just good to know you basically have an almost exact replica of Mario's FLUDD available just with much less range. (About the same lag).

 

[Chiroz]

Wow, I like how the pushing ability of up-B sounds. Could be very useful.

I hear that when using side-B in the air, his shadow moves along the ground. Does he still move horizontally through the air, or is he teleported to the ground?

He moves horizontally through the air. You can use it to help your recovery but you have to be careful because Side-B lags A LOT in the air. If you're going to use it for recovery then either try to land ON the stage (it cancels the lag) or use it as early as you can. If you Side-B to the ledge you WON'T grab it and you will lag so much that you won't be able to double jump to it, you will have to use Up-B. If you are just going to use it as an attack then just look at the shadow on the ground and you will know where Greninja will appear. He moves exactly horizontal, he won't drop or jump at all, once you let go he will be at the exact same height but where the shadow was.



Also while we're speaking of recoveries. Greninja's FIRST UNCHARGED shuriken in the air has "Mario Cape" effect from Brawl. So every time you go into the air, the first uncharged shuriken you throw will make you "jump" slightly and will cancel your aerial momentum and make you sort of "float" for a very brief moment. This actually helps recoveries if you do it once you are close enough to the ledge (because, even though it makes you "jump" it also cancels your horizontal momentum so if you want it to help your recovery do it once you are close enough to the ledge so that you don't need that horizontal momentum. It's basically EXACTLY like Brawl Mario's cape/Brawl Marth's Side-B).

 

[Wintropy]

Charged Water Shuriken is a 3 hit move. It doesn't just push back, it's an actual multi hit move. The last hit has very good knockback, it can even kill if used against an opponent offstage.

Things very important to note: Shuriken charges extremely fast, if you're used to charging smashes or Samus charge ball you will always mistime the Shuriken as it charges faster. You cannot hold it, it is released upon full charge. The more you charge it, the slower it is and the less it travels. Basically uncharged shurikens travel extremely fast and far. I haven't seen anyone yet with "spammier" projectiles. (I was able to outspam a Toon Link and a Falco, killing their projectiles and even hitting them). Full Charged Shurikens are mostly for offstage purposes or if somehow you know your opponent will eat it. If your opponent misses a d you have a free hit on your opponent you might as well just punish him with some other attack (such as a Smash), so just charge the Shuriken if you know your opponent will do something stupid and take the shuriken to the face or to gimp offstage.




Greninja moves pretty fast on the ground. His dash attack is extremely fast, so is his down tilt and up tilt. His jab is average for a jab not that fast or slow. His Side Tilt and all of his Smashes are slow. They come out slow and have a little bit of lag after. That said, his side-tilt has HUGE range, good for spacing. His smashes are all disjointed and hit decently strong. They are his main kill moves but they kill around 100-120% uncharged so be wary.

His Up-Air and Back-Air are really fast but both are multi-hit so if you miss you might get punished. That said they both have amazing range and they both have 0 lag on land so you can chain them with other moves. His Forward-Air has a bit of a wind-up but had good knockback, it also lags a bit after the attack and landing doesn't cut the lag. It's definitely a good move if you want to knock your opponent away, but for approaches sake I would say Back-Air is much better. I don't like Down-Air at all. It's literally old Toon Link's Down Air except it doesn't spike. It makes you fall incredibly fast, there is 0 way to cancel it and it doesn't even cancel with distance I have fallen from the very top of a stage to my death with this move. If you hit someone with it you "bounce" and have 0 lag which is nice, but if you miss you either fall to your death or suffer HUGE lag, HUGE.



I can't really comment anything on his weight right now, I'll try and see what I can figure out later.




I still haven't figured out his whole combo potential. At low percents he can chain Up-Tilts, but not as well as other characters. He can throw into aerials at low %s. His dash attack is soooo good, its fast, good range and doesn't put Greninja in danger (since he sort of "sweep kicks" forward allowing his body to be away from the enemy and close to the ground) it also pops the opponent up and in front of Greninja, perfectly setting up for his aerials. Apart from that there's not much I know of right now, that Up-Aerial trick I wrote down seems to have HUGE potential, if you can master it (and it's not just random) then it might make Greninja a huge threat as an Up-Air could be chained into an Up-Smash for a kill or a tilt/throw for a longer combo string.



Other cool things:

It's good to note that Up-B makes Greninja slide a lot if you aim it towards the ground (even if you don't land) and will allow you to safely use it to return on stage instead of the ledge. Not many people can chase you at the speed Greninja "slides". This can be done to mix up your recovery or just plainly have an "100% safe recovery" against slow moving characters by just Up-Bing above their heads and then downwards towards the stage.

Also you can do Up-B diagonally while on the ground and it won't move you (you will just shoot the water without moving). This water will push the opponent away just like FLUDD. Do be careful though because you will have a lot of lag after doing this. I haven't found a use for this yet, but it's just good to know you basically have an almost exact replica of Mario's FLUDD available just with much less range. (About the same lag).

Awesome analyses! He really, really sounds like he'll suit my playing style!

Thank you muchly, kind sir. I appreciate it~ <3

 

[PadWarrior]

This is an awesome thread. Will you record any of your matches? Can't wait to get my hands on greninja

 

[Spirst]

This is really great information. I appreciate it very much.

One thing though, Greninja's d-air CAN be a meteor spike. However, it depends on where the hit connects. If the d-air connects directly above the character, it'll shoot them down. If it lands on the left side, the knockback will be towards the right and vice-versa. The d-air will be pretty situational as it'll be difficult to always position Greninja correctly relative to the opponent. I can see some use though if an opponent is trying to recover with relatively high percent and you hit them in the opposite direction so they're even closer to the blast zone. However, this might be negligible depending on how the f-air knockback is in comparison.

Also you can do Up-B diagonally while on the ground and it won't move you (you will just shoot the water without moving). This water will push the opponent away just like FLUDD. Do be careful though because you will have a lot of lag after doing this. I haven't found a use for this yet, but it's just good to know you basically have an almost exact replica of Mario's FLUDD available just with much less range. (About the same lag).

This is very interesting. So it's only if you do a diagonal input? Is the push from the water the same as Mario's FLUDD or is it less effective?

 

[Chiroz]

This is really great information. I appreciate it very much.

One thing though, Greninja's d-air CAN be a meteor spike. However, it depends on where the hit connects. If the d-air connects directly above the character, it'll shoot them down. If it lands on the left side, the knockback will be towards the right and vice-versa. The d-air will be pretty situational as it'll be difficult to always position Greninja correctly relative to the opponent. I can see some use though if an opponent is trying to recover with relatively high percent and you hit them in the opposite direction so they're even closer to the blast zone. However, this might be negligible depending on how the f-air knockback is in comparison.


This is very interesting. So it's only if you do a diagonal input? Is the push from the water the same as Mario's FLUDD or is it less effective?

I JUST noticed this and changed my mind completely about D-Air. It's awesome!!! Another thing is at low %s D-Air is a true combo into itself!

Here's how it works: when you D-Air your opponent can DI left, right or not DI at all. Greninja can also choose to DI left, right or not at all. As soon as the hit connects, if you DIed the same direction as your opponent INSTANTLY input another D-Air. This combo works until the opponent DIs too far away which is around 50% or higher.

I am NOT 100% sure but the spike doesn't seem to rely on where you hit them but more on when you hit them. If you hit them during the first X frames (where X is actually a very lenient number) it spikes them. I tested this out for like 20 minutes in practice and this is the conclusion I came to. My conclusion might be wrong and it might be based on where you hit them, but I don't think it is.



2. You have to input the Up-B diagonally if you don't want to move, if you input it horizontally then Greninja will fly to the side (and you literally can't input it upwards).

It pushes back about the same as FLUDD but it has much less range so your opponent has to be closer. I still don't have a real use for this, but it might throw some people off their game.

Another cool trick with the Up-B jets is the following: Greninja CANNOT input a second direction if he is on the ground, he will only perform one of the 2 jets. To edgeguard Little Mac or someone who JUST used their Up-B (I killed 2 Little Macs and a yesterday Mario with this) you can Up-B from inside the stage so that Greninja just barely leaves the stage and then use the second jet to get back on stage it will push your opponent away, if your opponent has already used Up-B or if he is Little Mac chances are he is dead.

You can also use this same technique but use the second jet diagonally upwards towards the stage. Since you did a diagonal input your opponent will shoot to the very top of the stage (I am not kidding, if you do it right it will shoot him to the ceiling of the stage), if he had already used Up-B then he is going to fall from the top of the stage in free fall animation, this gives you a chance to punish as he descends either to the ledge or to the stage itself.




My friend does have a capture card on the 3DS and he actually streams the games. I'll try to get some of my matches recorded and post them in this thread. I'll try to show the things I've detailed in this thread, like the Aqua Jet uses etc.

 

[Spirst]

I JUST noticed this and changed my mind completely about D-Air. It's awesome!!! Another thing is at low %s D-Air is a true combo into itself!

Here's how it works: when you D-Air your opponent can DI left, right or not DI at all. Greninja can also choose to DI left, right or not at all. As soon as the hit connects, if you DIed the same direction as your opponent INSTANTLY input another D-Air. This combo works until the opponent DIs too far away which is around 50% or higher.

I am NOT 100% sure but the spike doesn't seem to rely on where you hit them but more on when you hit them. If you hit them during the first X frames (where X is actually a very lenient number) it spikes them. I tested this out for like 20 minutes in practice and this is the conclusion I came to. My conclusion might be wrong and it might be based on where you hit them, but I don't think it is.



2. You have to input the Up-B diagonally if you don't want to move, if you input it horizontally then Greninja will fly to the side (and you literally can't input it upwards).

It pushes back about the same as FLUDD but it has much less range so your opponent has to be closer. I still don't have a real use for this, but it might throw some people off their game.

Another cool trick with the Up-B jets is the following: Greninja CANNOT input a second direction if he is on the ground, he will only perform one of the 2 jets. To edgeguard Little Mac or someone who JUST used their Up-B (I killed 2 Little Macs and a yesterday Mario with this) you can Up-B from inside the stage so that Greninja just barely leaves the stage and then use the second jet to get back on stage it will push your opponent away, if your opponent has already used Up-B or if he is Little Mac chances are he is dead.

You can also use this same technique but use the second jet diagonally upwards towards the stage. Since you did a diagonal input your opponent will shoot to the very top of the stage (I am not kidding, if you do it right it will shoot him to the ceiling of the stage), if he had already used Up-B then he is going to fall from the top of the stage in free fall animation, this gives you a chance to punish as he descends either to the ledge or to the stage itself.




My friend does have a capture card on the 3DS and he actually streams the games. I'll try to get some of my matches recorded and post them in this thread. I'll try to show the things I've detailed in this thread, like the Aqua Jet uses etc.

I'm still a little unclear as to how the hitstun in this game functions in comparison to Brawl or Melee but being able to follow up a d-air with another d-air sounds cool. I wonder what the combo potential for Greninja is overall once the game is internationally released and the real in-depth analyses begin.

For the placement of the d-air hitbox affecting the knockback, I was going by what I had seen in this video:

Looking at it again, the times where he gets the spike (1:13 for example) DOES seem to be at the early frames of the move so perhaps your finding has validity to it after all.

As for the aqua jet, I can imagine scenarios where when the opponent is in free fall from the top of the stage, you do a d-air to seal the deal. I can also see it being helpful in doubles to save your partners recovery.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm still a little unclear as to how the hitstun in this game functions in comparison to Brawl or Melee but being able to follow up a d-air with another d-air sounds cool. I wonder what the combo potential for Greninja is overall once the game is internationally released and the real in-depth analyses begin.

For the placement of the d-air hitbox affecting the knockback, I was going by what I had seen in this video:

Looking at it again, the times where he gets the spike (1:13 for example) DOES seem to be at the early frames of the move so perhaps your finding has validity to it after all.

As for the aqua jet, I can imagine scenarios where when the opponent is in free fall from the top of the stage, you do a d-air to seal the deal. I can also see it being helpful in doubles to save your partners recovery.

D-Air to D-Air requires luck (or massive reading), because basically both you and your opponent must DI the same direction and you must instantly perform the move otherwise he will be able to shield it or dodge it. It's still awesome to do. The spike is DEFINITELY at the starting frames (I an 99% sure), I barely graced someone to the point where Greninja didn't bounce he just kept going downwards and I still spiked him. It's a very lenient spike in the sense that it's not the very start of the animation, it's actually a lot of the starting frames. As long as you start the move close to your opponent it will spike. Be very careful because if you miss your opponent offstage it means death.

EDIT: Also in that video you can clearly see both the D-Air to D-Air combo on Bowser and then a couple of D-Air spikes. So you can see both things there, although you can chain the D-Airs faster than he does (just perform them immediately after the first one connects).



Also if you hit your opponent on the very corners of the hitbox Greninja won't bounce, there's 3 stages. 1. Greninja Bounces, 2. Greninja doesn't bounce and drops like a rock/lags heavily on the floor, 3. Greninja doesn't bounce, he goes into idle animation and he stops dropping. This 3rd one is the Holy Grail of moves. It takes away ALL lag and stops you from dropping without making you bounce. The only problem is I can't replicate it at all. I know option 2 happens everytime you "barely hit" someone, but I have no idea of option 3.



Helping your ally with his recovery actually does sound like an awesome use for aqua jet.



Greninja does have a hard time getting KOs. I can't seem to KO anyone before 120%. Normally my KOs are between 140-150%. I know substitute hits really hard but I keep getting punished out of it by almost every character in some way because Greninja just lasts too long to "counter".

Edit: I am still unsure whether you can control which side you come from like Lucario, I forgot to check and I am no longer at my friends house. >.<. If you are able to control which direction you come from then those "punishes" are just my own mistake because I could counter them from the back and avoid being hit out of the counter. If you aren't able to control the direction then substitute will be a very rarely useful move as a simple jab combo can hit you out of it.



Also one super important thing about Shadow Sneak, it's Greninja's highest range attack. And no, I am not talking about charging it and moving horizontally, I am talking about the attack itself, the kick. It has more range than side-tilt which is a lot to say. It has greater range than Marth's smashes or tilts. If Marth whiffes a Smash close to you you can instantly Side-B without charging it and you will hit him back.





Edit: The video also shows Up-B pushing and it even shows the "Mario FLUDD Up-B" technique and goes as far as calling it "like Marios FLUDD", it's what he uses on Link. (He did move a slight bit though, if you angle it correctly you can do it with 0 movement). I guess that video basically covers everything I had discovered, I feel kind of bad now my information was already known and taped, I thought I had actually discovered something new xD.

I LOVE what he did to Bowser though. Such a good use of the Up-B pushing. DAAAAMN. Until now all I have been doing is pushing people "away", I had never pushed someone upwards to then push them away.

 

[Spirst]

D-Air to D-Air requires luck (or massive reading), because basically both you and your opponent must DI the same direction and you must instantly perform the move otherwise he will be able to shield it or dodge it. It's still awesome to do. The spike is DEFINITELY at the starting frames (I an 99% sure), I barely graced someone to the point where Greninja didn't bounce he just kept going downwards and I still spiked him. It's a very lenient spike in the sense that it's not the very start of the animation, it's actually a lot of the starting frames. As long as you start the move close to your opponent it will spike. Be very careful because if you miss your opponent offstage it means death.

EDIT: Also in that video you can clearly see both the D-Air to D-Air combo on Bowser and then a couple of D-Air spikes. So you can see both things there, although you can chain the D-Airs faster than he does (just perform them immediately after the first one connects).



Also if you hit your opponent on the very corners of the hitbox Greninja won't bounce, there's 3 stages. 1. Greninja Bounces, 2. Greninja doesn't bounce and drops like a rock/lags heavily on the floor, 3. Greninja doesn't bounce, he goes into idle animation and he stops dropping. This 3rd one is the Holy Grail of moves. It takes away ALL lag and stops you from dropping without making you bounce. The only problem is I can't replicate it at all. I know option 2 happens everytime you "barely hit" someone, but I have no idea of option 3.



Helping your ally with his recovery actually does sound like an awesome use for aqua jet.



Greninja does have a hard time getting KOs. I can't seem to KO anyone before 120%. Normally my KOs are between 140-150%. I know substitute hits really hard but I keep getting punished out of it by almost every character in some way because Greninja just lasts too long to "counter".

Edit: I am still unsure whether you can control which side you come from like Lucario, I forgot to check and I am no longer at my friends house. >.<. If you are able to control which direction you come from then those "punishes" are just my own mistake because I could counter them from the back and avoid being hit out of the counter. If you aren't able to control the direction then substitute will be a very rarely useful move as a simple jab combo can hit you out of it.



Also one super important thing about Shadow Sneak, it's Greninja's highest range attack. And no, I am not talking about charging it and moving horizontally, I am talking about the attack itself, the kick. It has more range than side-tilt which is a lot to say. It has greater range than Marth's smashes or tilts. If Marth whiffes a Smash close to you you can instantly Side-B without charging it and you will hit him back.





Edit: The video also shows Up-B pushing and it even shows the "Mario FLUDD Up-B" technique and goes as far as calling it "like Marios FLUDD", it's what he uses on Link. (He did move a slight bit though, if you angle it correctly you can do it with 0 movement). I guess that video basically covers everything I had discovered, I feel kind of bad now my information was already known and taped, I thought I had actually discovered something new xD.

I LOVE what he did to Bowser though. Such a good use of the Up-B pushing. DAAAAMN. Until now all I have been doing is pushing people "away", I had never pushed someone upwards to then push them away.

Haha, yeah, it always sucks to realize your discovery had already been documented. Oh well though.

I also love what he did to Bowser. I can really see that trick being a huge pain in the ass when playing a Greninja player. The opponent will almost always need to recover low if they don't want to get pushed.

I'm not sure about the counter either. I'm really hoping you CAN choose the direction Greninja reappears in (or SA frames get added in an update for it if you can't) as it would make the move useful only against someone who really isn't expecting it.

As for Greninja having a hard time getting KOs, that's a shame. I feel like a lack of reliable KO power will affect his viability. At least he seems to be able to rack up the damage though. Is his up-b like Sheiks in terms of KO power? That would at least be helpful.

 

[Chiroz]

Haha, yeah, it always sucks to realize your discovery had already been documented. Oh well though.

I also love what he did to Bowser. I can really see that trick being a huge pain in the *** when playing a Greninja player. The opponent will almost always need to recover low if they don't want to get pushed.

I'm not sure about the counter either. I'm really hoping you CAN choose the direction Greninja reappears in (or SA frames get added in an update for it if you can't) as it would make the move useful only against someone who really isn't expecting it.

As for Greninja having a hard time getting KOs, that's a shame. I feel like a lack of reliable KO power will affect his viability. At least he seems to be able to rack up the damage though. Is his up-b like Sheiks in terms of KO power? That would at least be helpful.

His Up-B deals no knockback, I assume you meant Side-B?

A fresh Side-B doesn't kill at around 130-140% on a Bowser Jr... It's one of his most powerful moves, yet it's still kind of meh in terms of killing power. His best killing move is Up-Smash. An uncharged Up-Smash kills around 120-140%, I've managed to kill sub 100% with a fully charged one. Also if you hit your opponent with only one blade the attack has a diagonal launch trajectory, I've managed to get 90-110% kills on the edges by hitting them with only one sword. His Forward Smash can also kill, so can his counter, around the same %'s as his Up-Smash but just a little bit worse. His Neutral B and Side-B can score him earlier kills if you can land it offstage otherwise they won't kill until much higher %s. His Up-Aerial could also land you an early kill if your opponent is too high in the air (think of Sonic's Up-Air). I guess D-Air is a spike, it's incredibly risky, but it's still a spike nonetheless, so it could land you a kill assuming you take the risk.

 

[EchoesOfRain]

Wow, that side-B off stage was nice! It's good to know that it doesn't put him in a helpless state.

Also, I think the reason for his issue with KO power may be due to the fact that he seems to be a bit more of a "slippery" character. He has a counter and a teleport, an interesting Up-B with pushing power, a D-Air that can juggle and spike, a great and varied projectile, and great movement speed. I don't blame him for the lack of Kill power

 

[KERO]

I'm honestly interested in the kill power of Uair. In the E3 build, I remember killing a WFT at around 112% about a little over halfway above the FE stage (Wii U) with it.

Edit: Knowing his alternate specials would also be nice.

Second Edit: This is really important. Try side-bing out of combos and see if it can cancel hitstun like Mega Man's Up-B.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm honestly interested in the kill power of Uair. In the E3 build, I remember killing a WFT at around 112% about a little over halfway above the FE stage (Wii U) with it.

Edit: Knowing his alternate specials would also be nice.

Second Edit: This is really important. Try side-bing out of combos and see if it can cancel hitstun like Mega Man's Up-B.

I will try the Side-B trick once I go visit my friend anymore which I don't know when that will be right now . But I doubt it as I have been hit out of Side-B so many times. Side-B can be used to avoid an incoming hit though if you time it just right.



His Up-Aerial will obviously kill earlier the higher your opponent is in the air. I've personally landed Up-Airs at low 100's and not gotten a kill, so it's not like it's the most powerful Up-Air, but honestly if the Up-Air Fast-Fall "Scorpion Come Over Here" trick can be mastered and replicated at will then you can Up-Air into Up-Smash which will lead into early 110-120 kills just by landing an Up-Air, which unlike the Up-Smash comes out instantly. Imagine Brawl Fox's Down-Air only with much more range, that's what it felt like when I did that trick. I basically sucked them to the ground my Up-Air auto cancelled and I had a free attack.

This will be a needed technique to master (if it is possible to do so).



I think as the dedicated Greninja subforum we should start naming some of the techniques, like the Hydro Pump Push (maybe that could be its name I don't know), the Up-Air sucking in to fast-fall in to smash/tilt could also have a name if it can actually be learned and replicated at will.

 

[bc1910]

Uair sucking the opponent in and to the ground is cool but it's basically just a combo, it doesn't really need a name. A lot of multi-hit moves have suction properties now such as Pikachu's Bair.

 

[Neanderthal]

Thanks a million for the info Raykz.
Been planning on maining Greninja for a while now, and it looks like he's fast and fun to play with a few cool tricks up his sleeve.
Sounds like his aerials aren't that good which sucks as I tend to be an aerial abuser.
I don't think you mentioned his neutral A. What's it like?

You may not be the first to discover the Up B pushing power. But if the up air pull to smash can be replicated on demand, then you've made a huge discovery.

 

[Theguesst]

Thanks for doing this. I was wondering if you tried out any of the special moves for greninja yet and your thoughts on them. Also in one match (forgot where) I saw a greninja do a vertical hydro pump and then B reverse the 2nd one to go flying to the right, going way off the stage. Can you try doing that?

 

[Chiroz]

Uair sucking the opponent in and to the ground is cool but it's basically just a combo, it doesn't really need a name. A lot of multi-hit moves have suction properties now such as Pikachu's Bair.

The thing is, you have to hit U-Air in a very specific way or you can't fast fall it. I don't know what that way is yet which is why I can't replicate it yet.

Thanks a million for the info Raykz.
Been planning on maining Greninja for a while now, and it looks like he's fast and fun to play with a few cool tricks up his sleeve.
Sounds like his aerials aren't that good which sucks as I tend to be an aerial abuser.
I don't think you mentioned his neutral A. What's it like?

You may not be the first to discover the Up B pushing power. But if the up air pull to smash can be replicated on demand, then you've made a huge discovery.

Greninja's Up-Air and Back-Air are awesome, they just suffer lag while airborne but if you land them they auto cancel. Lots of range on both move. I can imagine that they will be even better on a stage with platforms, more places to auto cancel the lag.

Greninja's Neutral A is decent. It has a bit of a start up which is what I don't like, but it's a good move to get your opponent off of you. Its also not hard at all to land and doesn't have much lag after the move ends. I like it, it's decent, it's just not a spammable aerial, it's more of a mix it up tool.

Greninja's go to approach aerial is definitely Back-Air, very fast, lots of range, good knockback and damage and it has no lag if landed. The biggest problem with back-air I believe is the 3DS controls, they make it so hard to perform aerials correctly, at least for me (I can't perform retreating aerials to space correctly or plainly space my aerials perfectly because of the circle pad).

Thanks for doing this. I was wondering if you tried out any of the special moves for greninja yet and your thoughts on them. Also in one match (forgot where) I saw a greninja do a vertical hydro pump and then B reverse the 2nd one to go flying to the right, going way off the stage. Can you try doing that?

If you mean the custom moves then no, I haven't tried any yet. I don't think I'll be able to because many people play on that 3DS and basically switch after every match, so no one is doing classic or smash run or anything like that to unlock the moves, its just match after match.

I don't understand what you are saying with the B-Reversal. If you mean Up-Bing in exactly opposite directions then yes, you can do it, it's what I do to push people off. I up-b to the right then to the left. Can you explain what you mean?






Edit: Well, while we are waiting and I have no way to play the game until I visit my friend again I asked ZeRo on his stream to check if Greninja's counter can be controlled . He said he will do it, so we'll know in the next hour or so.

 

[Chiroz]

I got great news: Counter isn't only "controllable" its EXTREMELY controllable. You can do it in any direction including from the left, from the right, upwards, downwards, diagonal, backwards. Anything you can think of. It's crazy as ****.

This means people can't hit you out of it as you could just come from any angle, they would literally have to guess what angle you are coming from, plus they would have to have a move fast enough in that exact angle. For characters with slow tilts/smashes you could just choose the opponent's slowest move angle in order to assure you will hit no matter what. Greninja can probably get some early kills with substitute which helps his kill potential too. Plus being able to control the direction you come from probably means you can control which way you knock your opponent away which means easier kills.

 

[PadWarrior]

Raykz dude this is awesome info and much appreciated. Will you be doing vids? It's so hard to find good Greninja footage.

 

[Neanderthal]

Greninja's Up-Air and Back-Air are awesome, they just suffer lag while airborne but if you land them they auto cancel. Lots of range on both move. I can imagine that they will be even better on a stage with platforms, more places to auto cancel the lag.

Greninja's Neutral A is decent. It has a bit of a start up which is what I don't like, but it's a good move to get your opponent off of you. Its also not hard at all to land and doesn't have much lag after the move ends. I like it, it's decent, it's just not a spammable aerial, it's more of a mix it up tool.

Greninja's go to approach aerial is definitely Back-Air, very fast, lots of range, good knockback and damage and it has no lag if landed. The biggest problem with back-air I believe is the 3DS controls, they make it so hard to perform aerials correctly, at least for me (I can't perform retreating aerials to space correctly or plainly space my aerials perfectly because of the circle pad)

Sounds alright then. Although I heard his short hop is higher than anyone else's.

Thanks again, there's very little info around about Greninja so this is great stuff.

 

[Chiroz]

Sounds alright then. Although I heard his short hop is higher than anyone else's.

Thanks again, there's very little info around about Greninja so this is great stuff.

It is but it's not bad. It's actually great for his playstyle. Back-Air throws 3 different kicks, one is angled downwards so you can still hit it very easily even if you throw it right after the SH. Also since N-Air has a bit of delay the high SH allows you to actually execute it like any other aerial.

Raykz dude this is awesome info and much appreciated. Will you be doing vids? It's so hard to find good Greninja footage.

I will try to get some video next time I am at my friend's house but I can't promise anything yet.

 

[bc1910]

I got great news: Counter isn't only "controllable" its EXTREMELY controllable. You can do it in any direction including from the left, from the right, upwards, downwards, diagonal, backwards (away from the opponent). Anything you can think of. It's crazy as ****.

This means people can't hit you out of it as you could just come from any angle, they would literally have to guess what angle you are coming from, plus they would have to have a move fast enough in that exact angle. You could just choose the opponent's slowest move angle in order to assure you will hit no matter what. Greninja can probably get some early kills with substitute which helps his kill potential too. Plus being able to control the direction you come from probably means you can control which way you knock your opponent away which means easier kills.

This is great. Do you know how it's controlled? Like, do you just hold the circle pad in the direction you want to attack? Holding the circle pad down to make Greninja attack from above, for example.

 

[Chiroz]

This is great. Do you know how it's controlled? Like, do you just hold the circle pad in the direction you want to attack? Holding the circle pad down to make Greninja attack from above, for example.

I think it's the opposite. You hold down and Greninja appears from the bottom going upwards. You hold left and Greninja appears from the left going to the right. I am not sure though as I didn't test it myself, I asked @CT ZeRo to test it for me on his stream.

You guys should watch/follow his stream (http://www.twitch.tv/zero). He gives a lot of good information on the game. Also if you subscribe he will test things for you in the game or give you advice/rundown on specific mechanics or characters. You could ask him to show you some of Greninja's combos, or even ask him to perform one of the techniques I highlighted in this thread. It's a great stream.



On the topic of Greninja videos, I'll try to get some videos of myself playing next time I am at my friend's house.

 

[o_Pulse_o]

I've had a few days of play time with Greninja I can also contribute to this as well. I'll be playing for like 6 hours tomorrow so I'll type up some stuff I have found over the last few days.

btw a general kill setup with Greninja is d throw to f air. U throw only kills around 140 ish now

 

[Chiroz]

I've had a few days of play time with Greninja I can also contribute to this as well. I'll be playing for like 6 hours tomorrow so I'll type up some stuff I have found over the last few days.

btw a general kill setup with Greninja is d throw to f air. U throw only kills around 140 ish now

I've tried this yet the opponent can just avoid the F-Air right? I mean they aren't in hitstun or anything, they could DI away, fast fall, jump, air dodge or just hit you back. I might be mistaken though.

 

[smartguyc1089]

I cant wait to troll my friends with aquapumpattackthingymabobby

=
=
=

 

[Chiroz]

For all of you who were interested in Greninja's weight compared to all other characters, the question has been answered by other users on the board:

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/




Apparently Bowser Jr is the 7th heaviest character in the game so maybe my KO values might be a bit off as they were all tested on Bowser Jr who I assumed was lighter than what he really is. So Greninja's kill potential isn't as bad as I thought, it still isn't that great though.

 

[o_Pulse_o]

I've tried this yet the opponent can just avoid the F-Air right? I mean they aren't in hitstun or anything, they could DI away, fast fall, jump, air dodge or just hit you back. I might be mistaken though.

I'm pretty sure it's possible, I've got it consistently when I play plus DI is nerfed as well so you just have to space it properly.

Edit: I'm gonna test it tommorrow, maybe its character specific?

 

[smartguyc1089]

try Mario, just because he should be about average

 

[Sneak Frog]

Thank you for providing all this insight on Greninja. I've been planning to main him for the longest time and now I'm looking forward to it even more. If I may ask, have you found any good combos for racking up damage at earlier percentages?

 

[bc1910]

I think it's the opposite. You hold down and Greninja appears from the bottom going upwards. You hold left and Greninja appears from the left going to the right. I am not sure though as I didn't test it myself, I asked @CT ZeRo to test it for me on his stream.

You guys should watch/follow his stream. He gives a lot of good information on the game. Also if you subscribe he will test things for you in the game or give you advice/rundown on specific mechanics or characters. You could ask him to show you some of Greninja's combos, or even ask him to perform one of the techniques I highlighted in this thread. It's a great stream.



On the topic of Greninja videos, I'll try to get some videos of myself playing next time I am at my friend's house.

I do watch his stream, it's really good, but he and Vex don't use Greninja much sadly. Also you have to pay him to get him to do the stuff you want haha.

 

[Chiroz]

I do watch his stream, it's really good, but he and Vex don't use Greninja much sadly. Also you have to pay him to get him to do the stuff you want haha.

Well yeah, but I don't see subscribing as "paying him to do something". I see it more as supporting the competitive Smash scene that I want to be part of by supporting one of the main players of the scene itself. I had subscribed before asking him to test the Greninja counter . I just want the competitive Smash scene to flourish and if I can help do that it's fine by me. Obviously not everyone can do so and you aren't required to do so. But just viewing the stream and telling your friends also helps a ton. You can help in your own way .




By the way, for all of those interested new info from another thread confirms Greninja has the following custom moves:



Shadow Sneak:

Intense Shadow Sneak: Shadow moves slower through the ground, Shadow can move farther away, attack deals more knockback (Unconfirmed numbers: Moves half as fast, Double the range, 1.5x Knockback).

Quick Shadow Sneak: Teleport is instant, no moving Shadow. He teleports an specific distance equal to about 50-75% of Shadow Sneak's max range. Attack deals less knockback. (Unconfirmed numbers: 75% knockback)





Substitute:

Particle Art (Greninja Explosion): Greninja dissapears for a brief moment and then reappears with an explosion around himself. This is NOT a counter.





Hydro Pump:

Single-Pulse Pump: Greninja only throws one pump instead of 2 so he can only go 1 direction (like Fox's Up-B). He gains more distance. (Unconfirmed numbers: About 30% more distance).









Personal opinions:



- I think Single-Pulse Pump is useless. Greninja already has an outstanding recovery, it's not like he needs any more distance on it. Plus not being able to switch directions makes his recovery way too predictable, plus it takes away his ability to do "Pump Pushing" (naming pending), the technique that we have been discussing in this thread.



- Particle Art might be better or worse than Substitute, it all depends on the knockback it does really. Substitute is one of Greninja's kill moves, something he lacks right now. If Particle Art is also a kill move then it's definitely better than Substitute as it doesn't require you to counter an attack. Otherwise if it's not then Substitute will probably be better to keep as Greninja needs all the kill moves he can possibly get.



-Quick Shadow Sneak: Shadow Sneak's shadow already moves pretty fast. Being instantaneous might give you a bigger surprise factor on your opponent but the move already has a big delay upon disappearance and a huge lag after the hit, both of which will still be there with Quick Shadow Sneak. The move will still be very risky, and risky moves should give huge rewards, not mediocre ones. This might allow you to "counter" projectiles with Shadow Sneak though, so against a very spammy player this might be a good choice. (Also against Rosalina and Luma this will allow you to react to a Luma Shot with a free hit on Rosalina).



- Intense Shadow Sneak: So this seems like a great custom move for me. It might depend on your playstyle but as I said previously, the disappearance time and lag after hit will stay exactly the same, so the only thing that changes is the shadow moves half as fast. What this means is that for "close range" punishes Shadow Sneak now becomes an AWESOME move with 0 tradeoff (as you don't need to move the shadow at all), maybe even becoming Greninja's best kill move. Mid range punishes will also be buffed by this custom, trading a very small amount of lag for a much greater punish. Max ranged punishes will probably become too predictable to even try and hit unless you can catch your opponent by surprise (or some extremely laggy move like Warlock Punch). But it also means that if you are able to catch your opponent by surprise then you will get a much greater reward out of it.

I think this one might depend on your playstyle. If you want to use Shadow Sneak a lot in your playstyle then this custom might not be for you. If on the other hand you want to save Shadow Sneak for punishing whiffs or surprising the opponent for a KO then this might be the perfect custom for you.

Plus as an added bonus you can follow and punish people who are farther away from the stage and recover from farther away back to the stage with this version of Shadow Sneak.

 

[Neanderthal]

Going to take advantage of you while you're on a roll Raykz.

How's his grab range and lagg?
And do any of his aerial hit boxes linger much?

Cheers again.

 

[Neanderthal]

Double post*

 

[Chiroz]

His grab range is good, but the animation tricks you into thinking it's longer than it actually is. So you might think it's very short because the move itself "feels short", but its not a bad grab range once you get used to it. It lags a bit if you miss the grab, more so than some characters, but the lag isn't that bad. It's okay. Overall I would rate his grab game as average.

His Back-Air and Up-Air are both multi hit and both have lingering hitboxes. Up-Air lingers quite a while while Back-Air doesn't linger as much (it still lingers a good amount though). Both of these aerials come out extremely quickly and have awesome range, they lag just a bit in the air (partly due to the lingering hitboxes) but they both auto cancel on landing. I cannot stress just how good these 2 aerials are. They are awesome.

 

[smartguyc1089]

yay! I love using aerial characters cant wait to have one i like outside of ssb

 

[Sosuke]

it's a shame that short hop sends you so far up, SH Bair would have been great

but i guess i haven't actually played it yet myself so what do i know