Grabbing in Neutral

[why]

How should Ganon's grab be used in the neutral game to be most effective? Should it be used at all? Are there any setups for grabs in the neutral game?

 

[Bwmat]

waveland -> grab can surprise people sometimes

... yeah I dunno, there's not much AFAIK.

 

[XLAX_OVERDOSAGE]

Shieldgrabbing is great in the neutral game IMO. Especially against a side-Bing falcon or a Nairing spacie.

 

[djmath]

a Nairing spacie.

>2015
>telling someone to shield grab a space animal that approaches with shffled nair into shine into JC grab/shield pressure

for fox
nair has 7 frames of landing lag, shine takes 1 frame to come out, and shield stun is (X + 4.45)/2.235 frames, where x is 9 for weak hit nair and 12 for strong hit nair, which is 6 and 7 frames respectively. There are 1 or 2 frames where you are not in shield stun and can perform an out of shield option. since grab comes out on frame 7, even if you are frame perfect, you will still get shined, shinegrabbed, or any number of worse things that fox can do.

Grabbing in neutral is good, shield grabbing in neutral is situational

 

[-ACE-]

Pivot grabbing out of a dash dance can be good for punishing baited approaches, nowhere as good as Marth's but a good tool nonetheless.

Neutral game is mostly baiting... But you don't really bait with a grab, you punish... So it's a weird concept in a way.

 

[why]

>2015
>telling someone to shield grab a space animal that approaches with shffled nair into shine into JC grab/shield pressure

I had assumed that shield grabbing an nairing spacie was a bad idea. Could the dash-dance grab be a method around that, or is it too slow?

Neutral game is mostly baiting... But you don't really bait with a grab, you punish... So it's a weird concept in a way.

What are some methods for baiting an approach other than dash-dancing? And methods for dealing with approaches?

 

[-ACE-]

How to bait approaches: do anything that your opponent will think is punishable when it actually isn't.

Think of things that don't limit your options (always have a plan B... You have to do something extremely close to unsafe to fool an old school player to sea it as punishable when it is not). The more familiar you are with "the line of safety" or basically what is safe and what isn't in any given situation, the easier you can bait good players.

Fullhop dair (dair the frame after you've held jump long enough for it to be a full jump and not a short hop)... You can dj afterwards and aerial, airdodge, ff and retreat or approach, or waveland on a platform.

Sh uair

Sh bair retreating (spamming bair leaves you vulnerable so retreating works better)

Usmash (very low cooldown time, free jab).

I would put a lot more but a friend of mine (chick) just showed up. Maybe others will chime in.

 

[why]

Thanks for the information on this. I will try to work more baiting into my Ganon strategy. I might also look into more options for baits. This has been very helpful.

 

[Bwmat]

retreating bair, ugh so good. I manage to double-hit marth so much with it it's insane, considering the sword.