Gordos versus ...

[Eggggggggggbert]

Now I suppose this could be going under the matchup thread, but I want to talk about matchups solely in terms of Gordo use.

Who are Gordos effective against? There are definitely characters that have the ability to easily reflect these back at you,with it it be with a quick tilt or a reflector or a ranged attack. There are also other characters who seem to can't help not having very good tools to stop these things. Now I'm not prompting this for thoughtless use of Gordos, I just want to get a better idea of who I should refrain using side-b against and for what reason.

EDIT: I'm going to index this discussion properly
Risk functions as 5 - High, 1 - Low.

Character | Risk | Notes
Bowser | 1 | Bowser pretty much has only his Nair and jab to reflect. Limited yet reasonable means.
Bowser Jr. | 5 | Jr's aerials and normals have great disjointed range, as well as decent speed. Mechakoopas and cannonballs can reflect them.
Captain Falcon | |
Charizard | |
Dark Pit | |
Diddy Kong | 5 | Has a million options to reflect gordos ranging from popgun to banana pull (not even considering his tilts)
Donkey Kong | 1 | Free against kong cyclone because you can just throw it at them and it's free damage. His normals are slow as well.
Dr. Mario | 4 | Similar enough to refer to Mario.
Duck Hunt | 5 | With Clays (furthest & smallest option), Cans (most reliable, yet slowest answer), Gunmen (his quickest & safest option, especially in teams), or your NAir or FAir, among other moves.
Falco | |
Fox | |
Ganondorf | 1 | Too sluggish to properly reflect Gordos most of the time (although its a high risk/high reward thing though, as he might still land a hit, and if he does it will hurt).
Greninja | |
Ike | |
Jigglypuff | 1 | Although a small target, Jigglypuff has no real tools to easily deal with gordos. Height coverage not great.
King Dedede | 4 | THE DITTO. N-air is a quick tool and d-tilt+f-tilt throw out long lasting hitboxes. Also gordos against gordos are weird, everybody loses.
Kirby | 1 | Very similar in nature to Jigglypuff. Height coverage not great.
Link | 4 | Like Toon Link but has more upclose and personal options. Aggressiveness can be punished, camping not so much.
Little Mac | |
Lucario | |
Lucas | |
Lucina | 2 | High range normals and reasonable, but no ranged means.
Luigi | 5 | Fireballs are safer, faster, and reliablier(??). Any Luigi is going to have these as a quickfire tool in any game, let alone with King Dedede.
Mario | 4 | Fireballs are safe, fast, and reliable. The cape is always a potential threat, its pretty fast. The jab and his nair both work okay for reflection as well.
Marth | 2 | High range normals and reasonable, but no ranged means.
Mega Man | 5 | Super Ranged character, going to be a challenge to sneak anything in.
Meta Knight | |
Mewtwo | |
Mii Gunner | 5 | Although you may rarely see this creature, it stands to reason that it is a ranged build so they'll always make easy work of those gordos
Mii Brawler | |
Mii Swordsman | |
Mr. Game & Watch | |
Ness | |
Olimar | 1 | Gordos do beat pikimin. Temporary of low threat until I know more about this MU.
Pac-Man | |
Palutena | |
Peach | |
Pikachu | |
Pit | |
R.O.B. | 5 | An overall hard D3 matchup. Any level of charge on the laser can deflect them. So can the top, even while it's spinning on the ground (needs testing).
Robin | |
Rosalina | |
Roy | 2 | High range normals and reasonable, but no ranged means.
Ryu | 4 | Gordos beat red hadoken and inputted hadoken (0nly hadoken that can beats out gordos is the standard B one). Normals are fast, good for reflecting and Tatsumaki Senpukyaku reflects as well.
Samus | 5 | Incredibly ranged, very dangerous.
Sheik | 3 | Gordos beat Sheik needles, Ending lag of Shiek bomb leaves her open. Although fast jab in general.
Shulk | 3 | Although slow, normals very high range but also no ranged means.
Sonic | 5 | Spin dash and spin charge beat gordo (and our whole neutral really). Keep on using it to cover his landings though.
Toon Link | 5 | Incredibly ranged, very dangerous. Most Toon Links are the campy, run and spam/waiting for opportunity type.
Villager | 5 | Villager has a lot of quick and easy tools to reflect Gordo, especially in his Fair and Bair. Not to mention Pocket, which turns our Gordo into an extra deadly weapon against us.Villager's job to have just a wall of stuff out to provide pressure for approaches. He's doing in essence what we're trying to do with much greater success.
Wario | |
Wii Fit Trainer | |
Yoshi | 5 | Yoshi eggs are incredibly safe and will reflect gordos with ease. Any time Yoshi is far away enough to not just hit gordos back with an attack you will be being hit by eggs. Also he has one of the most ridiculous dash attacks in the world.
Zelda | |
Zero Suit Samus | |

Lets work to fill this out. If you have anything to add or something you want tweaked, feel free.

 

[KnightofPizza]

Bowser pretty much has only his Nair and jab to reflect Gordos, the former giving you an easy way to smack it right back at him with a well timed attack. when he's in endlag.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Bowser pretty much has only his Nair and jab to reflect Gordos, the former giving you an easy way to smack it right back at him with a well timed attack. when he's in endlag.

I didn't know that. Things like these are important to get out there, because otherwise I would think Bowser is an easy target.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

Duck Hunt for sure, as his Character Boards have gone over last month, including me here: http://smashboards.com/threads/sic-...mega-man-ness-and.379294/page-5#post-19346381

To quote myself from that thread for brevity's sake:

Let us begin with the basic question that usually surrounds any MU featuring the dog: Can the trio lame out the opponent? Answer = Very Yes, he can do so very well here. Triple D is slow overall, he's a big & heavy target, and his only projectile, Gordos, can be easily reflected, whether with Clays (furthest & smallest option), Cans (most reliable, yet slowest answer), Gunmen (his quickest & safest option, especially in teams), or your NAir or FAir, among other moves. One of your top priorities when fighting Triple D is warding off Gordos. If you can consistently pull this off, then you take away one of his best approach options, and he'll have to use his other moves to try to get in on you.

Bowser Jr's another person you'd want to be wary about chucking Gordos at, because not only do Jr's aerials (and ground A button moves too!) have great disjointed range, but they also have decent speed. Mechakoopas can also help Jr out with reflecting them, as well as Cannonballs. Side B on the ground is NOT a free Gordo Tossing moment, IF he's Jump Cancelling out of it, which lets him do his aerials & airdodges immediately after Side B JC-ing (Up B's possible afterwards too!).

 

[KnightofPizza]

Some characters like Marth, Lucina, Roy, or Shulk have a high range, giving them a heightened and easier opportunity to strike back on your Gordos.

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

Gordos beat sheik needles, Red hadoken, pikman(most likely butchered) and jabs that only do 1% like ZSS's

i think gordos are a "catch the opponent slipping tool" for the most part...but i believe they are great against kong cyclone because you can just throw it at them and it's free damage.

Any diddy kong that lets you get gordos out is some combination of bad/inexperienced or both because diddy has a million options to reflect gordos ranging from popgun to banana pull not even considering his normals

 

[MioTinto]

As far as I'm concerned, Ganondorf is too sluggish to properly reflect Gordos most of the time. It's a high risk/high reward thing though, as he might still land a hit, and if he does, it goes without saying that it will hurt.

 

[Man of shame]

Gordos beat sheik needles, Red hadoken,

Gordos beats out inputed hadoken also, the only hadoken that can beats out gordos is the standard B one.

 

[supersage400]

As far as I'm concerned, Ganondorf is too sluggish to properly reflect Gordos most of the time. It's a high risk/high reward thing though, as he might still land a hit, and if he does, it goes without saying that it will hurt.

And yet if he does reflect it, you can have a dead man's volley with Ganondorf, which is just spectacular. Honestly, I find it incredibly ironic that we got the reflectable projectile and not Ganondorf.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Gordos beat sheik needles, Red hadoken, pikman(most likely butchered) and jabs that only do 1% like ZSS's

i think gordos are a "catch the opponent slipping tool" for the most part...but i believe they are great against kong cyclone because you can just throw it at them and it's free damage.

Any diddy kong that lets you get gordos out is some combination of bad/inexperienced or both because diddy has a million options to reflect gordos ranging from popgun to banana pull not even considering his normals

Considering how limited D3's approaching tools are, I like to use Gordos as a way to apply shield pressure as I come in to make up for my otherwise very unimpressive and slow entrance. I made this thread so I can consider who its especially dangerous (or especially not so dangerous) to use this strategy on.

 

[SalsaSavant]

Mario is probably a 4. Fireballs are safe, fast, and reliable. The cape is...the cape. The jab and his nair both work okay for reflection as well.

The same applies to Doc, I'd guess, though I have less experience with that matchup.

Also, I think we should count Mii Fighters as 3 different characters. Maybe even more for specific variants.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Mario is probably a 4. Fireballs are safe, fast, and reliable. The cape is...the cape. The jab and his nair both work okay for reflection as well.

The same applies to Doc, I'd guess, though I have less experience with that matchup.

Also, I think we should count Mii Fighters as 3 different characters. Maybe even more for specific variants.

Good point, I didn't think about that when I made the list. I made the adjustments.

 

[KnightofPizza]

Considering Mii Gunner has so many projectiles, I'd call that a 5.

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

For luigi i'd copy and paste the mario text because it's the same scenario (idk the % on jab) but i'd imagine it'd be a similar experience. not to mention...luigi aerials are faster than mario's aerials over all

i'd put at a 4 easy assuming the luigi is playing around gordos properly

 

[Man of shame]

so how would you rate our selfI say 4 for n-air d-tilt f-tilt plus gordos against gordos are weird everybody loses.

 

[Jatayu]

I didn't know Pichu, Squirtle, and Ivysaur were still fighters. Potential pokemon veterans DLC bundle in the future?

Anyway, sonic is a 5 since spin dash and spin charge beat gordo (and our whole neutral really). Keep on using it to cover his landings though.

 

[Man of shame]

I didn't know Pichu, Squirtle, and Ivysaur were still fighters. Potential pokemon veterans DLC bundle in the future?
.

yep there all going to be released at the same time along with wolf and young link.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

For luigi i'd copy and paste the mario text because it's the same scenario (idk the % on jab) but i'd imagine it'd be a similar experience. not to mention...luigi aerials are faster than mario's aerials over all

i'd put at a 4 easy assuming the luigi is playing around gordos properly

I'm not sure. Luigi doesn't have the cape and while his aerials are fast, they do not have super great range. I'd be somewhat difficult to hit them back or deal with them if the Luigi isn't really sharp on the MU.

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

you should based it on if the opponent is sharp on the Match up because preperation for the good players would also prepare you for the bad ones...and luigi fireballs are faster than and mario things

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

you should based it on if the opponent is sharp on the Match up because preperation for the good players would also prepare you for the bad ones...and luigi fireballs are faster than and mario things

I always felt an aspect of playing Dedede and his lower position in the theoretical tier list was that you're offered a little bit of unpredictability with whoever you play against. Not many people have a lot of practice against Dedede and learning to manipulate Gordos isn't necessarily something that can come quick. You put yourself at a lot of risk punchin those things away when you aren't 100% sure.
Also would you say Luigi would suffer as oppose to Mario dealing with Gordos as he doesn't have cape?
Would you agree with a 4 for Luigi?

 

[Revolution6 aka alterego]

4 sounds ok...but i really don't really see luigi's having trouble with gordos because luigi can literally just fireball on reaction(luigi fireball is that fast) because gordo toss is that long of a move and either they hit the gordo and you take like a free 14..or they miss the gordo and you take a free 4 and then they hit the gordo then you take at least 12 afterward from the gordo

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

4 sounds ok...but i really don't really see luigi's having trouble with gordos because luigi can literally just fireball on reaction(luigi fireball is that fast) because gordo toss is that long of a move and either they hit the gordo and you take like a free 14..or they miss the gordo and you take a free 4 and then they hit the gordo then you take at least 12 afterward from the gordo

I'll do some followup testing just because I'm not familiar with Luigi. I'll add as 5 for now, you've made a good point.

 

[AAAZZZ]

Yoshi eggs are incredibly safe and will reflect gordos with ease.
Any time Yoshi is far away enough to not just hit gordos back with an attack you will be being hit by eggs.
I'd say 5.

I also disagree with the ranking bowser has as any weird bounces make it incredibly difficult for him to actually reflect a gordo and hit you with it. This is my own limited personal experience, but if any character has a worse time of dealing with gordos I would like to hear it.

Ike has huge disjointed hitboxes that reflect gordos very well but his slow speed and lack of projectiles make him less of a threat than he could be.
I doubt he will get hit often but you also shouldn't either.
In addition to that aether makes any gordos used for edge guarding get knocked into your face.
3

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Yoshi eggs are incredibly safe and will reflect gordos with ease.
Any time Yoshi is far away enough to not just hit gordos back with an attack you will be being hit by eggs.
I'd say 5.

I also disagree with the ranking bowser has as any weird bounces make it incredibly difficult for him to actually reflect a gordo and hit you with it. This is my own limited personal experience, but if any character has a worse time of dealing with gordos I would like to hear it.

Ike has huge disjointed hitboxes that reflect gordos very well but his slow speed and lack of projectiles make him less of a threat than he could be.
I doubt he will get hit often but you also shouldn't either.
In addition to that aether makes any gordos used for edge guarding get knocked into your face.
3

Yeah, thats a good point about Bowser. Especially if we have characters like Lucina at 2, probably not fair to have him at 2 as well. If I could, I'd put him at 1.5 or something, but we'll just put him at a 1.

You make a fair point with Ike, and his jab is decent against gordos in itself. I'm pretty sure his side b (not sure what its called, where he charges it and flies forward) can reflect gordos if he hits them so thats pretty easy to do along with the rest of his tools.

I'll trust your word on Yoshi.

 

[Jerodak]

Bowser pretty much has only his Nair and jab to reflect Gordos, the former giving you an easy way to smack it right back at him with a well timed attack. when he's in endlag.

Those are both good options, but you're missing forward tilt and forward air. Those are both very useful against gordos.

on another note, up tilt is also a nice gordo reflect tool, especially now that it's been buffed.

To be honest though, and I could be wrong, It doesn't appear that gordos ought to be used much, if at all, in the neutral game. They do seem like a great option from advantage however, especially for set-play. At least that's been the most successful use of them I've seen so far.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Those are both good options, but you're missing forward tilt and forward air. Those are both very useful against gordos.

on another note, up tilt is also a nice gordo reflect tool, especially now that it's been buffed.

To be honest though, and I could be wrong, It doesn't appear that gordos ought to be used much, if at all, in the neutral game. They do seem like a great option from advantage however, especially for set-play. At least that's been the most successful use of them I've seen so far.

I see them as a great tool for approaches and shield pressure along with edge guarding. Its also often just an easy move to through out in some matchups. I just made this as a quick estimation of punishability of the random gordos or for approaching options.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Eggggggggggbert Fair enough, hope my info was helpful.

 

[Blue Mage]

I'd probably rate Villager a 4 or 5. Villager has a lot of quick and easy tools to reflect Gordo, especially in his Fair and Bair. Not to mention Pocket, which turns our Gordo into an extra deadly weapon against us. A Pocketed Gordo does a huge 23% and has tons of knockback, enough to kill on the middle of FD starting at 90%. As you may already know, a Pocketed Gordo keeps whatever trajectory is was originally tossed in.

A Pocketed Gordo reflected back at Villager results in either an instant kill (even from 0%), or a shield break. This is fantastic (and quite hilarious), but of course good Villagers won't just give this to you. Someones online I'll feed a Villager a Gordo just to see what he does with it. The good ones will hold onto it until you're vulnerable (like recovering, getting combo'd, or doing something unsafe), the bad ones will throw it immediately or randomly, usually resulting in an easy reflect.

What do you guys think?

 

[KnightofPizza]

Those are both good options, but you're missing forward tilt and forward air. Those are both very useful against gordos.

on another note, up tilt is also a nice gordo reflect tool, especially now that it's been buffed.

To be honest though, and I could be wrong, It doesn't appear that gordos ought to be used much, if at all, in the neutral game. They do seem like a great option from advantage however, especially for set-play. At least that's been the most successful use of them I've seen so far.

I have no idea how I missed FTilt, but as a Bowser main, it feels like that I always miss the Fairs to reflect them.

 

[Jerodak]

I have no idea how I missed FTilt, but as a Bowser main, it feels like that I always miss the Fairs to reflect them.

It helps to use game sounds and the gordo toss to help with timing, but it also depends on distance. You can be close enough to use f-air on reaction to the gordo toss and it will hit D3 guaranteed.

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

I'd probably rate Villager a 4 or 5. Villager has a lot of quick and easy tools to reflect Gordo, especially in his Fair and Bair. Not to mention Pocket, which turns our Gordo into an extra deadly weapon against us. A Pocketed Gordo does a huge 23% and has tons of knockback, enough to kill on the middle of FD starting at 90%. As you may already know, a Pocketed Gordo keeps whatever trajectory is was originally tossed in.

A Pocketed Gordo reflected back at Villager results in either an instant kill (even from 0%), or a shield break. This is fantastic (and quite hilarious), but of course good Villagers won't just give this to you. Someones online I'll feed a Villager a Gordo just to see what he does with it. The good ones will hold onto it until you're vulnerable (like recovering, getting combo'd, or doing something unsafe), the bad ones will throw it immediately or randomly, usually resulting in an easy reflect.

What do you guys think?

Yeah, its pretty much a Villager's job to have just a wall of stuff out to provide pressure for approaches. He's doing in essence what we're trying to do with much greater success. The pocket factor does add a little zest to this match up though, I always like that goofy stuff. I'd be willing to say that this is a 5. Just because their projectiles are going to beat out ours of course.