Good secondaries for Mewtwo?

[LRodC]

So I've been a Mewtwo main for a while now, and I've wanted to invest in some serious secondaries, because right now it's a bit of a revolving door of characters. I'd want these secondaries to consist of characters that could possibly cover Mewtwo's more tough match ups and complement him, but I also want them to be enjoyable for me to play. So I don't want to necessarily main a top tier if I don't enjoy their playstyle, but tier doesn't matter to me.

Here are the characters I've been considering in no particular order:

: She just came out, but she has a very enjoyable moveset to me that flows together very well and has great potential. However, she's a very advanced character. If I used her as a secondary, it could potentially take a lot of time to master her and I'm not sure yet if I'm ready for a commitment that large. However, she's on the table and she's still new, so we'll see as I use her more.

: I find Doc to be more enjoyable than Mario to use, even if Mario is better, as I find Mario to be pretty plain and unexciting. For Doc's advantages, he has a great OoS game and he has great power in his moves along with the frame data. Tornado and back air are great moves as well. His mobility and recovery both suck, but I don't mind working around those. I think he could also complement Mewtwo well for some of his tougher match ups, such as Pikachu, but I'm not sure about that.

: Could potentially be a good secondary. I've been watching Sol put in the work with Mac lately and it was impressive what he could do. I'm not sure if I'd be fully dedicated to working around Mac's glass cannon archetype and mastering all of his tech, but he's enjoyable enough. Hell, I main the second lightest character in the game, so I'm used to dying early.

: I've been trying him out recently and he's very enjoyable. I'm kind of shocked that he was buffed again recently. He's an option too, but I'm sort of inexperienced with him and I'm not 100% certain as of right now if he's the guy or how he could work in tandem with Mewtwo.

Other potential choices: (I enjoy her more than Marth and she suits me better)

So these are the current candidates for Mewtwo secondaries. These are by no means locks, they're just suggestions. Any advice on what I should do? Should I keep just one secondary? Invest in two? Get a pocket top tier? Suggestions and advice of any kind are appreciated.

 

[Mr. B]

I like Lucina as a secondary, mainly for Counter and Shieldbreaker, which I use against characters who frustrate me with disjoints... She got some decent buffs in the last update too. Good girl.

However, her playstyle is completely different to Mewtwo. Never using DJ on stage, and never going offstage seems so weird after Mewtwo's "I dominate you off the edge" mentality.

I wish I could pick up Little Mac, since I feel like he is probably the best secondary... so quick, and super-armoury, with a counter... But I hate him and his stupid face; boxing seems so banal when you are used to psionics!

 

[420quickscoper]

I think Cloud is a great character to have as a secondary for Mewtwo's bad matchups. Not too sure about it, but yeah.

 

[/Lucina]

I'm going to say... Lucina. What, me, biased? I have no idea why you would think such a thing. The thought just sort of occurred to me out of nowhere.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hey --- are/do we have a chart for Mewtwo's MU's?

Mewtwo suffers against rush down characters, so someone that can deal with that would be optimal. At this point, I think Bayonetta is a bad choice for that.

Cloud, Diddy Kong, ZSS(Mewtwo mains usually like ZSS) and Sonic (he might be too simple for a M2 player) are good choices.

I can explain certain choices more if you want.

 

[---]

If there is a character you enjoy using/feels right by all means use them as a secondary, but if you're really serious about covering weak spots none of the characters listed bar ZSS I'd go with.

Hey --- are/do we have a chart for Mewtwo's MU's?

Wasn't going to start an official board one until we got through most characters in the Match Up thread (which I'll probably start speeding up soon). Not sure what's going on with this thread:

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-chart-project-2015-calling-mewtwo-mains.422735/

Rushdowns I would think are fairly self explanatory: Sheik, Fox, Sonic.

 

[Aninymouse]

I'm not a tournament winner, so take my advice with a grain of salt, of course.

In order to properly answer your quandary, we would first need to understand what all of Mewtwo's worst match-ups are. Unfortunately, none of us agree on that, and there aren't enough Mewtwo mains yet to get enough conclusive data. En lieu of that, let us ask, what are some of Mewtwo's biggest weaknesses?

* Light weight: the better a heavyweight is, the more excruciating it is for Mewtwo to stay ahead. Arguably, the strongest heavyweight in the meta is Donkey Kong. Bowser has a similar metagame to DK, so you fight him somewhat similarly.

* Frame data: Mewtwo's two bread-and-butter moves, Dtilt and Fair, are his fastest at frame 6. Frame 6 is decently fast, not slow by any means, but there are enough characters in this game with moves faster than 6 frames that it can be a weakness. Some characters with faster moves include but are not limited to: Captain Falcon, Little Mac, Sheik, Meta Knight, Mario, Bayonetta, etc. These are all very diverse threats.

* Blind spots: Mewtwo, like many characters, does not have a rock-solid option for a hitbox below him when he is in the air. Mewtwo also has a slow Bair which is good for combos and off-stage but poor in protecting his back side. Down smash does not protect his back. Shadow Ball charge lost its hitbox. Ftilit is slow and has too little shield pressure, lag, and knockback. Forward smash is laggy. So, what does this all mean?

Mewtwo focuses on running away and escaping when above opponents. Mewtwo does this pretty decently, so it is not a strong weakness.

Mewtwo is weak to roll-behind strategies, especially when in shield. There is no rock-solid answer to this, and as the meta developes, I suspect it to become Mewtwo's greatest weakness if Sakurai does not buff Mewtwo again. As such, Mewtwo must focus on the neutral state, and winning neutral state exchanges... which, thankfully, Mewtwo is good at doing.

—————————————————

I use Ike a bit. I'm no Ryo, but I can feel and see his potential. Ike has a glaring weakness in his recovery, but is solid on-stage with a myriad of options and true combos. Ike can easily handle Mewtwo's aversion to heavyweights. Ike is a "heavyweight killer" in general, being powerful, highly disjointed, fast jab, great grab game, and decently heavy himself.

Lucina, Little Mac, and Dr. Mario are characters that I can understand. Each brings something to the table. Each can cover different challenges. Lucina is by far the most balanced of the three.

The other options? I'd advise against Lucas. Bowser is questionable since, other than doing well against lightweights, his weaknesses are even more pronounced than Mewtwo's. Link has the same frame data weakness, and you must learn item play to use him correctly, but he does have very unique attributes.

And then there's Bayonetta. I think that Bayonetta is bad for Smash Bros. as a whole. Other people think she's the best thing to ever happen to Smash Bros.. Regardless, most people believe that she is high tier with scary potential. She might be imbalanced; she might be lackluster. Too early to tell.

 

[Sonicninja115]

If there is a character you enjoy using/feels right by all means use them as a secondary, but if you're really serious about covering weak spots none of the characters listed bar ZSS I'd go with.



Wasn't going to start an official board one until we got through most characters in the Match Up thread (which I'll probably start speeding up soon). Not sure what's going on with this thread:

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-chart-project-2015-calling-mewtwo-mains.422735/

Rushdowns I would think are fairly self explanatory: Sheik, Fox, Sonic.

That is a random, pretty dumb project to find a global MU chart. Everyone thinks they beat M2.. That should explain it's validity...

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Saw Bowser as a possible option. Since the roles of these two chars (M2 and Bowz) are reversed, I'll list some pros and cons of picking Bowser.

Pros:

1) Big frame. Your shield timing would be about the same as it already is for M2.

2) Lots of killing power and decent speed to boot. Somewhat similar to Mewtwo(but not overall), a lot of Bowser's early killing moves are read based.

3) If you're a grabby Mewtwo like me, then Bowser will be perfect for you. Bowser gets a lot of reward out of his grabs, with all of his grabs doing high damage and knockback (for grabs).

4) Kill moves are generally reliable.

Cons:

1) Since 1.1.4, Bowser requires much more precision and skill than simple combo know how.

2) Bowser suffers in similar matchups that Mewtwo is weak in. As he is very heavy and large, he is as much a combo meal as Mewtwo, if not more so.

3) Bowser's core strategies are much different from Mewtwo. While Mewtwo relies on his aerials often, Bowser depends heavily on his ground game. The playstyle might feel wonky to you

 

[Deleted member]

I'd say take a look at Ness.

He's a high tier after all, and can offset some of Mewtwo's bad MUs (save for the top 3, ughhhh). Great aerials, grab game, juggles and edgeguarding. Only thing that you might not like his his recovery leaving him vulnerable or him having subpar ground movement. Give him a try!

 

[Metros]

I'm actually picking up as a secondary. I've tried with occasionally
but none of these characters have ever really 'clicked' with me in such as way that Mewtwo has. I'm in the same predicament you are and have been for a long time now. I love Mewtwo and do fantastic with him, but he does have his weaknesses that I need a secondary to fall back on. I would LOVE to say he is solo viable, but sadly, at this point, he isn't. I can't wait for the day he is.

No doubt those other characters are good to play as and could make a viable secondary, however I find they they require a lot of time and patience, just like Mewtwo did. And I'm fine with that, but I'm more after a character that can 'wall out' an opponent. After being suggested R.O.B I decided to give him a shot. He pretty much clicked with me after spending a fair while in training mode with him. My first few matches with him were all pretty solid as well!

I would much rather play an obscure character rather than characters everybody knows and expects and of course, knows the match up quite easily because everybody plays them. Maybe you might find something in either of those characters that I didn't but that's just how I feel about them. I would suggest Ness and Lucario out of them the most. Shiek I find everybody just knows and if you can't get the kill with her then you're pretty much screwed.

I've also considered giving a try, again an obscure character but she does seem to have some potential from what I've seen lately.

Best of luck with whoever you choose as your secondary.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

So I've been a Mewtwo main for a while now, and I've wanted to invest in some serious secondaries, because right now it's a bit of a revolving door of characters. I'd want these secondaries to consist of characters that could possibly cover Mewtwo's more tough match ups and complement him, but I also want them to be enjoyable for me to play. So I don't want to necessarily main a top tier if I don't enjoy their playstyle, but tier doesn't matter to me.

Here are the characters I've been considering in no particular order:

: She just came out, but she has a very enjoyable moveset to me that flows together very well and has great potential. However, she's a very advanced character. If I used her as a secondary, it could potentially take a lot of time to master her and I'm not sure yet if I'm ready for a commitment that large. However, she's on the table and she's still new, so we'll see as I use her more.

: I find Doc to be more enjoyable than Mario to use, even if Mario is better, as I find Mario to be pretty plain and unexciting. For Doc's advantages, he has a great OoS game and he has great power in his moves along with the frame data. Tornado and back air are great moves as well. His mobility and recovery both suck, but I don't mind working around those. I think he could also complement Mewtwo well for some of his tougher match ups, such as Pikachu, but I'm not sure about that.

: Could potentially be a good secondary. I've been watching Sol put in the work with Mac lately and it was impressive what he could do. I'm not sure if I'd be fully dedicated to working around Mac's glass cannon archetype and mastering all of his tech, but he's enjoyable enough. Hell, I main the second lightest character in the game, so I'm used to dying early.

: I've been trying him out recently and he's very enjoyable. I'm kind of shocked that he was buffed again recently. He's an option too, but I'm sort of inexperienced with him and I'm not 100% certain as of right now if he's the guy or how he could work in tandem with Mewtwo.

Other potential choices: (I enjoy her more than Marth and she suits me better)

So these are the current candidates for Mewtwo secondaries. These are by no means locks, they're just suggestions. Any advice on what I should do? Should I keep just one secondary? Invest in two? Get a pocket top tier? Suggestions and advice of any kind are appreciated.

Out of those characters, , and are your best bets, and among these characters, I'd recommend either or . Both of them are easy to pick up due to their abundance of good tools, but they are very hard to optimize. ZSS has scarier options up close.

and are solid picks as well, but they both have weaknesses that can be problematic in certain matchups. In Ike's case, landing is an issue, and in Doc's case, he can't keep up with characters that have the ability to zone WITH disjoints (e.g. Marth, Rosalina, ZSS, etc.)

The rest of your characters (except maybe and ) have flaws that are hard to ignore. has issues landing, is very unsafe in general and is a large target. has an awful disadvantage, having a very bad aerial game and being susceptible to combos due to his fast fall speed + his recovery. has below average mobility, and mediocre frame data.

My recommended picks outside of your list are kind of boring (not to me, but they might be for some people):

( is probably the weakest of this lot)

All of these characters are solid and have enough tools to cover tough matchups.

 

[DERPFISHsaysNO]

While I know you didn't mention , he tends to cover our weaknesses rather well. I also use if I'm having trouble vs a projectile spammer.

 

[LRodC]

Thanks a lot for all of your suggestions. I didn't mention Cloud, but I was definitely thinking of him since he's very easy to learn and he does cover the bad match ups well. He does seem kind of cookie cutter, though. It feels like everybody has a Cloud pocket these days. However, I think he's an excellent character overall (definitely top 10 potential). I'll be trying him out along with almost everyone on the roster though to see how I do as them and if I want to stick with them. I might even do a FG marathon with most characters on the roster.

I definitely know a top tier would be the objective best, but I'm not crazy about a lot of their playstyles. I've never liked playing as Sheik since Melee (always preferred Zelda), Zero Suit has always been "meh" in Brawl (again, I liked Samus better even if she wasn't as good), but she is the top tier I enjoy the most in this game even if it's not that much. I honestly just listed her because I knew she was objectively the best choice, but it doesn't necessarily mean I want to commit to her, at least not yet. I'd have to play around with her more. I don't like Rosalina's playstyle.

 

[Aninymouse]

I like Rosalina, actually. I don't use her much, but I enjoy it when I do.

 

[Chiroz]

I agree that Cloud covers a lot of Mewtwo's bad matchups very well and Mewtwo also covers some of Cloud weaknesses if you're struggling because of a particular exploit by your opponent.

Pikachu and Mario will still **** on you though.

 

[LRodC]

I've been using Cloud to decent success. I've also been considering Marth and have been trying him out lately. He feels very solid after his buffs. What's everyone's general thoughts about him as a potential secondary? I'm currently weighing the differences between him and Lucina post buff.

I could also have a third character as a pocket or other secondary, so it's not like I have to be fully committed to one character only.

 

[Aninymouse]

I've been using Cloud to decent success. I've also been considering Marth and have been trying him out lately. He feels very solid after his buffs. What's everyone's general thoughts about him as a potential secondary? I'm currently weighing the differences between him and Lucina post buff.

I could also have a third character as a pocket or other secondary, so it's not like I have to be fully committed to one character only.

For tournament play, Marth is better. Regardless of Lucina's greater combo potential, Marth being safer on shield is a pretty huge plus. Marth also has better killng tools at the 100%-140% range.

 

[Mr. B]

I cant get past Marth's face and voice being that of smarmy anime douche. Lucina does not offend me with her aesthetics, which is my main reason for favouring her over him as a secondary.... Technical superiority be damned!

 

[Aninymouse]

I cant get past Marth's face and voice being that of smarmy anime douche. Lucina does not offend me with her aesthetics, which is my main reason for favouring her over him as a secondary.... Technical superiority be damned!

IMO, this is a valid reason. Player satisfaction is a huge factor. Look at Mew2King: he went through a half dozen Smash 4 characters before landing on Cloud. With Mario, DK, et all, he did well, but never excelled. Now that he has Cloud, he consistently beats players he always used to lose to.

 

[DERPFISHsaysNO]

I actually dropped my original main () to my 4th spot in the pocket because he became not fun. If you don't like a character (be it aesthetics, playstyle, whatever) don't play them!

 

[J2_]

R.O.B. for me. Gyro into up-smash setups feel amazing, and I get a warm fuzzy feeling maining a psychic terror and secondary'ing a mechanical menace.

 

[LRodC]

I'd say take a look at Ness.

He's a high tier after all, and can offset some of Mewtwo's bad MUs (save for the top 3, ughhhh). Great aerials, grab game, juggles and edgeguarding. Only thing that you might not like his his recovery leaving him vulnerable or him having subpar ground movement. Give him a try!

I ignored this for some reason. Ness is all right, but he doesn't really do it for me. Maybe one day I could change my mind, but he doesn't pop out to me as someone I'd want to use.

At the moment, I've made my choice (nope, not Corrin). I'm gonna go with Little Mac and Cloud. I'll see how that goes for right now. If two characters ends up being too much, I'll likely drop one of them.

 

[J2_]

For the sake of necroing, I've picked up Meta Knight for a couple reasons. He has the same run speed as Mewtwo so that's easier to adapt, but he has much better frame data and techs that let him compete with decent Shieks, Corrins, and Lil Macs.

 

[Top Boss]

Maybe try fox. He can handle rushdown.

 

[LRodC]

Maybe try fox. He can handle rushdown.

I actually picked up Falcon again since I used to use him before Mewtwo released and I used him in every smash game before this one. He's fairly low commitment as well unlike someone like Mac or Samus who I was also interested in. The only common issue I have now is Mario, who both Mewtwo and Falcon have a hard time with.