Good Counterpick against Cloud?

[MegaFatcat100]

Just curious, from my experience ZSS does really well, but sheik not so much. What do you guys think?

 

[TAN-MAN]

I think cloud just has some stuff on Sheik, I wouldn't say she doesn't do well. In certain positions Sheik is gonna dominate cloud(offstage) and of course she still has an excellent neutral and a myriad of options. Just gotta be wary of that finishing touch.

I'd say any character that does well off stage and has good combos can give cloud trouble. Pikachu, Mario, perhaps Fox come to my mind.

I have no experience with this but from a conceptual standpoint maybe Captain Falcon. Very fast hard hitter with decent strings and some devastating ledge guard/gimping/spiking options.

 

[Raijinken]

Mario does exceptionally well against Cloud.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Don't pick up a counter pick so soon. How long has Cloud even been available? Maybe a couple weeks at this point?

Learn the match-up and figure out ways to combat Cloud.

 

[Raijinken]

Don't pick up a counter pick so soon. How long has Cloud even been available? Maybe a couple weeks at this point?

Learn the match-up and figure out ways to combat Cloud.

Gotta agree with this, too. He's strong, but he has some notable weaknesses that are pretty exploitable. His recovery is one of them. Without Limit Break it's really bad, and if he tries to save his Limit for it, he'll have to forego using any specials, likely (depending on player skill and personality) saving them for a kill. Times like that, you're free to camp him out as much as you want. Once (if) he uses his LB, you can go back on the cautious aggressive. His punish game is strong, but he is also pretty easy to punish.

 

[Tinkerer]

Cloud does really well against more campy characters, but I find Ness and Lucas do really well against him because they have a combination of being able to outrange and pressure him constantly (and stop the Limit Break charge), while also having strong throws to force him offstage in a super disadvantageous position. Time will tell if that will hold, though - people thought Little Mac was way OP initially and he has a very similar design philosophy.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Cloud does really well against more campy characters, but I find Ness and Lucas do really well against him because they have a combination of being able to outrange and pressure him constantly (and stop the Limit Break charge), while also having strong throws to force him offstage in a super disadvantageous position. Time will tell if that will hold, though - people thought Little Mac was way OP initially and he has a very similar design philosophy.

Can they absorb Blade Beam with PSI Magnet? (G&W too for that matter.)

 

[Raijinken]

Can they absorb Blade Beam with PSI Magnet? (G&W too for that matter.)

Yes, they can. It's also reflectable.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Cloud does really well against more campy characters, but I find Ness and Lucas do really well against him because they have a combination of being able to outrange and pressure him constantly (and stop the Limit Break charge), while also having strong throws to force him offstage in a super disadvantageous position. Time will tell if that will hold, though - people thought Little Mac was way OP initially and he has a very similar design philosophy.

I don't think that Cloud does well against all campers. Anyone that beats Cloud in the neutral can give him a pretty hard time by getting him off the stage and forcing him to use Limit Break up b. This will make his advantage state worse by giving him fewer opportunities to hit with his Limit Break specials. This is why I think that Mii Gunner can beat Cloud. Mii Gunner can beat Cloud in the neutral and get plenty of damage from ledge guarding and getting follow ups on Cloud. Mii Gunner can survive longer than Cloud in the matchup due to Cloud's struggles with shields and recovery. Although Cloud can deal some damage inside and punish Gunner, I think that Gunner's superior neutral will allow him/her to have an easier time taking advantage of Cloud's weaknesses.

 

[DroveSour]

All of Twitch thinks the best option is to go Cloud.
Seriously. All of Twitch is Cloud.
Twitch forecast for the rest of the week.
Thursday: Cloudy with a chance of Shiek
Friday:Cloudy with a chance of Zero Suit Samus
Saturday:Clouds all day.

 

[Browny]

I think in theory Mario should kind of slaughter cloud.

Fludd is like, a 30 active frame automatic kill when he tries to recover.
He can combo him just as hard as falcon/ganon with dthrow/utilt/uair.
He isnt susceptible to any of clouds damaging or kill combos (I dont think mario is tall enough to get sucked into the uair finishing touch combo?)

Seriously though, one grab should send cloud to at least 37+ and then fireball him to hell, dont give him a chance to set the pace of the match.

I think Cloud does very well versus characters who normally wait for the enemy to approach, since he can camp hard for limit break and makes defensive characters have to play offense pretty much the entire time. On the other hand, he is weak to characters who are too light to fall for his combos and those that can easily mess with this recovery.

 

[pikazz]

Jr is 50/50 against Cloud in my opinion so I dont really need to have a counterpick for him.

however, I do believe characters that can easy apply offstage pressure, reflect/absorb his B for healing/mean moments and LB B for early kills and people that can have a good approach will have the top-notch over cloud:
so Mario, Villager, Ness and Lucas will be good picks, even if it may be just on 55/45-60/40 in their favor

 

[MajorMajora]

From myself playing with cloud I have a lot of trouble against people with strong OOS options (Mario, for example), though better clouds may space you out better. Still at a casual level, jumping nairs, uairs, and dtilts can, upon shield, often be responded with a fast enoug OOS like mario's upsmash, so that takes away a lot from his neutral.

 

[Got4n]

Well I do have some problems against Cloud as I'm Ryu, his moves are so short thar Cloud outruns me :/

 

[lordvaati]

(no Main bias really) Mario due to faster attack speed,fireballs and arguably the best gimping options against Cloud.

 

[Jaketto]

(no Main bias really) Mario due to faster attack speed,fireballs and arguably the best gimping options against Cloud.

I completely agree with this. Mario's cape (side-b) would possibly work great as well as the fireball as you mentioned.
As a Falco main I tend to struggle until I have him off the stage due to Falco having great options to edge-guard.

 

[TJTheRager]

Better Cloud > Cloud

 

[SNchilly]

Dark pit seems to do pretty well against cloud

 

[Jumpo]

I actually slaughter cloud with sheik, I find he is hard to beat with any slow character, but someone quick like sheik and fox just destroys him. I think it all depends on the cloud you are versing though and your play style

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like and are good CPs against Cloud, at least in my experience. We even saw the MU played at Smash 4-Ever when it came to the former with Nairo's . Roy's aggressive playstyle can also put Cloud into an uncomfortable position due to his lack of get-off me moves, although Roy himself has the same flaw.

 

[many37]

In my experience with Cloud I'd say a good Jiggs can destroy Cloud, since he is gimped rather easily.

Also, characters that can outpace Cloud and characters with good reach on their attacks give Cloud a run for his Buster Sword.

 

[NeilMik]

i always find fox a good match up against cloud easy to abuse the up tilt on him rack up the damage fast a could Bair should send him far back enougth that he wont recover

 

[Deleted member]

In my experience with Cloud I'd say a good Jiggs can destroy Cloud, since he is gimped rather easily.

Also, characters that can outpace Cloud and characters with good reach on their attacks give Cloud a run for his Buster Sword.

So a character with godawful reach, survivability and approach and having nothing truly safe on shield beats Cloud? This is as baseless of a statement akin to people claiming she beats ZSS just because of crouch.

 

[many37]

So a character with godawful reach, survivability and approach and having nothing truly safe on shield beats Cloud? This is as baseless of a statement akin to people claiming she beats ZSS just because of crouch.

You missed the point. Cloud's recovery is not that great. If you can successfully gimp Cloud, its all over. Besides, you are berating Jiggs because her flaws are obvious without taking into account that her aerial game is god-like.

Just watch Hungrybox destroy everyone with Jiggs on Youtube and you will know what I mean.

Here is one of such occasions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-k7iVOAzbQ

 

[Deleted member]

You missed the point. Cloud's recovery is not that great. If you can successfully gimp Cloud, its all over. Besides, you are berating Jiggs because her flaws are obvious without taking into account that her aerial game is god-like.

Just watch Hungrybox destroy everyone with Jiggs on Youtube and you will know what I mean.

Here is one of such occasions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-k7iVOAzbQ

This was more than a year ago and Hungrybox nowaday rarely plays Smash 4, he still focuses on Melee and PM. He's irrelevant. Not to mention he dropped Jigglypuff in this game.

No **** Cloud's recovery isn't great, but Cloud keeps out Jiggs so well with his disjoints that Puff has barely any chance to find an opening at all. I can also name many, many characters who have more effective aerial game than Jigglypuff despite her having such a good airspeed.

 

[Smudges]

You missed the point. Cloud's recovery is not that great. If you can successfully gimp Cloud, its all over. Besides, you are berating Jiggs because her flaws are obvious without taking into account that her aerial game is god-like.

Just watch Hungrybox destroy everyone with Jiggs on Youtube and you will know what I mean.

Here is one of such occasions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-k7iVOAzbQ

Even so, Cloud has all the options to outspace and overpower Jiggs.
Jiggs can't get even remotely close to Cloud. Any air approach is shut down by Nair, Bair, or even Fair.

Jiggs' ground game... Don't start.

Cloud also has ridiculous strength, and combined with Jiggs' god awful survivability, I'd say Cloud beats Jigglypuff by a long shot.

 

[TTTTTsd]

All Cloud has to do to keep Puff out is Nair Autocancel.

Actually there's an easier one, Uair autocancel.

 

[Deleted member]

All Cloud has to do to keep Puff out is Nair Autocancel.

Actually there's an easier one, Uair autocancel.

Pretty much. Falling up air ruins Jiggs' day hard.

 

[Smudges]

Actually there's an easier one, Uair autocancel.

Bair autocancel works too.
Bair's horizontal range is awesome, while still having decent vertical range.

 

[san.]

I doubt it. I think Jigglypuff is good vs Cloud. Nair autocancel definitely isn't enough. Its range is barely larger than Ike's nair.

Cloud has to commit too much on the ground to fully keep Jigglypuff away in both the air and on the ground.

 

[Smudges]

I doubt it. I think Jigglypuff is good vs Cloud. Nair autocancel definitely isn't enough. Its range is barely larger than Ike's nair.

Cloud has to commit too much on the ground to fully keep Jigglypuff away in both the air and on the ground.

I'm harping on Back Air. It's range is huge, and is definitely enough to keep Jigglypuff away.

You're right in that Cloud has to remain fairly grounded to force Jiggs into the air, though.

 

[san.]

I'm harping on Back Air. It's range is huge, and is definitely enough to keep Jigglypuff away.

You're right in that Cloud has to remain fairly grounded to force Jiggs into the air, though.

Bair has 11 frame startup, can't be autocanceled with limit on a short hop, and he has to wait the whole duration of bair before he can autocancel. Bair also doesn't have too much range, the part where it sweeps upwards doesn't even have a hitbox.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I would just throw out AC Uairs because they cover enough horizontal and vertical range in front of me to block literally any aerial approach especially if it's a character whose range is low (if they're in front of me esp.).

SH FF Uair being viable is part of why I don't see him struggling at all in the Jiggs MU IMO, he has a pretty feasible, fast answer to her approaches IMO, by being able to throw out a Frame 7 disjointed aerial that autocancels and is out for 19 frames and has commendable horizontal range.

 

[san.]

Testing now against grounded Jigglypuff, the horizontal range of a falling uair is worse than Jigglypuff's jab. Horizontal range seems to extend (slightly) only after Cloud lifts up his sword when testing on Jigglypuff on BF's side platform.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Testing now against grounded Jigglypuff, the horizontal range of a falling uair is worse than Jigglypuff's jab.

I don't use falling Uairs if Jigglypuff is on the ground.

It's not autopilot, it's pretty easy to pick based on where the character is. If being approached by Jiggs on the ground, I can jump and Dair or use any aerial to cover myself. If being approached from the air which is more common, I can Uair in response.

Why would ANYONE use Falling Uair vs. Jiggs in this matchup? All you do is reactively outspace and play smart, like most chars vs. Jiggs. Just pick based on where the character is, exercise disjoint.

I also tend to play lame vs. Jiggs. Get one hit and run away for the rest so long as I have a % lead, which is also possible (especially with Limit on).

 

[san.]

Whoops, I misread SH FF Uair as landing with uair. I pictured Jigglypuff as on the ground in neutral and reactive uairs.

Either way, from my experience in the MU playing vs. other Clouds as Jigglypuff, I had the air control to get around those moves.

Nair: if whiffed, Jiggs can still punish before autocancel frames kick in.
Bair: Needs to be respected when spaced, but can be punished when up close
Uair: Horizontal range actually isn't too great. It's very good against her, but he needs more when Jiggs mixes up ground and OoS punishes.

 

[Smudges]

Nair: if whiffed, Jiggs can still punish before autocancel frames kick in.
Bair: Needs to be respected when spaced, but can be punished when up close
Uair: Horizontal range actually isn't too great. It's very good against her, but he needs more when Jiggs mixes up ground and OoS punishes.

Yep.

Also yep. Bair is hard to punish when spaced well, but is bad up close. As you said, 11 frames startup, with iffy hitboxes below.

Uair doesn't have as much horizontal range as I'd have thought. The "Horizontal" range is still mostly above him, not to the sides. Only to the sides when the move first comes out, otherwise...

 

[TTTTTsd]

Whoops, I misread SH FF Uair as landing with uair. I pictured Jigglypuff as on the ground in neutral and reactive uairs.

Either way, from my experience in the MU playing vs. other Clouds as Jigglypuff, I had the air control to get around those moves.

Nair: if whiffed, Jiggs can still punish before autocancel frames kick in.
Bair: Needs to be respected when spaced, but can be punished when up close
Uair: Horizontal range actually isn't too great. It's very good against her, but he needs more when Jiggs mixes up ground and OoS punishes.

Yeah, he can't really autopilot in this matchup and as such, I have found the best way to win as a Cloud player is to acquire/charge Limit, and then fish for a % lead and run away using my mobility + shield. It's lame and stupid but if it works, it works!

Otherwise you just have to play based on reaction if you don't wanna be lame like me (as the Cloud player.)

Having Limit in this MU is IMO important because if you're ever by chance knocked offstage, you'll have a way back on. I do not however believe it is a strong counterpick like the OP wants, nor would I classify the MU as such. I don't, at this moment, believe Cloud loses, I'd like to think my reasoning is a bit more in-depth than "disjoint tho", heh.

 

[many37]

Yeah, he can't really autopilot in this matchup and as such, I have found the best way to win as a Cloud player is to acquire/charge Limit, and then fish for a % lead and run away using my mobility + shield. It's lame and stupid but if it works, it works!

Otherwise you just have to play based on reaction if you don't wanna be lame like me (as the Cloud player.)

Having Limit in this MU is IMO important because if you're ever by chance knocked offstage, you'll have a way back on. I do not however believe it is a strong counterpick like the OP wants, nor would I classify the MU as such. I don't, at this moment, believe Cloud loses, I'd like to think my reasoning is a bit more in-depth than "disjoint tho", heh.

Agreed. Having the Limit bar full is key to keep Jiggs on check. IMO (and please put your pitchforks away) you don't have to run shamelessly like a coward after filling your Limit bar. You can zone Jiggs using Neutral B (which is a great zoning tool I might add due to its range and spamability) and then look for an opening. Cloud's reach on the ground is also a great asset against Jiggs.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Agreed. Having the Limit bar full is key to keep Jiggs on check. IMO (and please put your pitchforks away) you don't have to run shamelessly like a coward after filling your Limit bar. You can zone Jiggs using Neutral B and then look for an opening. Cloud's reach on the ground is also a great asset against Jiggs.

Oh you don't have to, for sure, I just find it to be the easiest way. There are many ways to play the MU, I can only speak of personal success though haha.

I'll be sure to experiment with Cloud in this (and probably many more) matchups.