Glide Alternative Suggestions?

[QuincyJones]

So as you may or may not be aware, my fellow dragonlings, Metroid has responded to our inquiries about the problems of new glide.

Hi Quincy,

You’re right, I was not the one directly responsible for the changes made to Charizard. However, as a member of the PMDT and one of the primary playtester for the character, I have more privileged insight than most people.

Contrary to how it may feel, the glide angles were untouched from 3.02 to 3.5 (max upward angle of 50, max downwards of -60). This retention from 3.02 is actually inconsistent with the modifications made to Pit’s and MK’s glides, whose max upward angles were both changed from 70/80 to 45, respectively.

The inability to angle glide upward upon starting it may be due to the forced starting animation, which was necessary to eliminate glide braking. Charizard’s glide previously overrode any momentum he had before starting it, which lead to a mechanic that PMDT members have dubbed “glide braking” (similar to G&W’s bucket braking) in which Charizard can SDI attacks downward at high %s to force a missed tech animation while sliding off the stage – this puts Charizard out of hitstun from the attack and allows him to immediately glide, which negated his momentum and allowed him to survive attacks while recovering to the stage (granted, without any jumps but still the ability to up+B). Such an ability was blatantly out of line with the PMDT’s general stance on weakening recoveries, particularly on a character who is so heavy and difficult to knock offstage to begin with. After attempting to fix the issue several times, none of which were met with success, glide was eventually given the starting animation that is currently in 3.5, which factors into account Charizard’s current momentum when initiating glide rather than completely negating it like previous iterations. Although the starting animation does also add commitment on glide start-up, this added commitment is in line with the changes to MK’s and Pit’s glide, with the former having a max glide duration of 80 frames and the inability to return to a glide state after its first aerial usage while the latter now expends all but 1 jump and has IASA frames delayed by 3 frames; it is regrettable that such a drastic change had to be made to Charizard’s glide and that it alters the timing for glair follow-ups, but it was necessary to remove glide braking and this change is consistent with the overall theme of adding commitment to all glides. (For what it’s worth, it’s still possible to wavebounce glide start, but it has a less noticeable effect compared to before.)

The other noticeable change made to Charizard’s glide is the new turnaround animation upon canceling it. Although there was a consensus to standardize and add commitment to the three glides, the PMDT still wanted them to be unique from each other – hence why only MK has a glide timer and Pit’s glide only reduces him to 1 jump instead of taking away all of his jumps. Along the same lines, Charizard’s glide is the only glide that can be reversed upon glide end. Rather than eliminating this unique trait, this trait was retained but an animation was added to make the turnaround more visually consistent – Charizard’s previous ability to immediately face the opposite direction in the air upon ending a move without going into the Z-axis was jarring compared to other actions that cause the user to turn around (Jigglypuff’s, Kirby’s, MKs, and D3’s double-jump turnarounds, for example). As you may have noticed though, this turnaround animation does alter some timings for glide end turnaround tricks; for what it’s worth, I didn’t feel too strongly about this change one way or the other but there were those in the PMDT who felt that the lack of a turnaround animation looked unprofessional and visually jarring.

I hope this answer is satisfactory for you and the other Charizard mains on the Skype group. I tried to be open and address your inquiries, but if you have other questions, please let me know what else I can do.

So now we're aware that new glide was largely a function of a necessary change in coding. With this being the case, we've been brainstorming some glide alternatives that we would be happier with in lieu of the current incarnation of glide. Discussion GO!

 

[ꓰspeon]

Trying to look at the problem, I noticed the most important part we were missing from the glide changes was the hit that the glair itself took, so I thought, we can get straight to the heart of the problem.

What if we replace airborne downB with the immediate glair, much like it would happen in 3.02 if we were to throw it out ASAP? Of course, this would need many tweaks to make a reasonable swap, but for one, it would solve the problems related to glide, since there'd be no more glide to speak of. Meanwhile, many of the ATs Zard mains enjoy are related to the glair itself, so we could work around that.

For one, the new glair should be able to be angled, allowing the current angle possibilities (which are also the same as 3.02). This would allow the pseudo sky attack combo to remain, as well as maintaining a degree of manueverability to the move. Moreover, it would still allow ledge mixups, since aiming horizontally would regrab the ledge (ala Kirby's horizontal cutter), and the upwards one would glair on stage, much like the old one.

For another, Zard should be able to act out of it, to maintain the mixups to return on stage from above. This would of course carry a host of limitations, like losing the remaining jumps on use, and being available only once per airtime (much like the old glide).

All of this can be adjusted for the various situations, like the startup time and landing lag would heavily determine its usefulness in neutral, and a reasonable endlag time would prevent crazy air followups. To adjust its recovery potential, it could either allow or disallow upB after use (though he would regain the upB after being hit, much like Gdubs and sonic's upBs)

For the grittier details, frankly, I'd be most comfortable with the idea of glair losing its IFrames and having hitboxes much closer to the 3.02 ones rather than the 3.5 ones. In the same way that many moves have to either be approached from the "side" or with a disjoint (like MK's sideB, or DK's upB), I believe allowing just everyone to bop Charizard by just being there and throwing a hitbox is unfair and a braindead tactic.

Regrettably, Zard would be losing the glide, which many felt an essential component of a flying character, but I feel this may be more important to the feel of the character than the glide itself.

Edit: wrong word

 

[QuincyJones]

Like I suggested in the skype chat before, if this were to occur I'd love to see it be a normal multi hit move with minimal endlag when you use the move normally, but pressing B again will cause an explosive hit equivalent to current glair's final hitbox. Using the explosive hitbox would put us in special fall with the standard ending lag when we reach the ground. This would create some very interesting and potent mixups as well as leave room for all the interesting ATs that existed before.

 

[Merfect]

I don't care what's done with the Glide so long as I can still Glide-Stall. Makes it easier for Zard to edgehog or plan on how to get back onstage from the ledge. I do kinda want the ability to angle Glide sooner again.

 

[Heroofhatz]

I don't care what's done with the Glide so long as I can still Glide-Stall. Makes it easier for Zard to edgehog or plan on how to get back onstage from the ledge. I do kinda want the ability to angle Glide sooner again.

Let's keep this thread just for suggestions for changes, we can discuss the current glide in the 3.5 discussion thread

EDIT: Sorry I read your post wrong. My bad, you're good

 

[TheGravyTrain]

About when he discussed "janky" turnarounds, does this not apply to turn around specials? What about b reversing? Even wavebouncing makes not logical sense in terms of gravity and physics. Not that I know if it effects anything, I haven't played 3.5 Charizard yet, but that part doesn't make much sense. One could argue the start up of the turn around special serves as visual indicator of turning around, but so do turn around double jumps. That reasoning doesn't make much sense.