Glass Cannon?

[meleebrawler]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the difference this makes is probably non-existant for lighter characters who get almost no time to DI. If we look at it this way, Charizard's is stronger with no DI while Mewtwo's is stronger on part of the cast with DI.

I could be wrong though.

Directional influence is the same no matter who you're using. Light characters may sometimes have less time to react to throws that execute faster on them but they can still DI them just fine.

 

[godogod]

Mewtwo doesn't exactly have a versatile moveset.

His up tilt and up throw don't work.

His only tilt combo option is down tilt and something else.


Sakurai left Mewtwo as incomplete mess.

And no, I still don't think he's a true glass cannon. He has some powerful smashes and above average throws, but they aren't remotely like the heavyweights or ROy in power, and he doesn't have much combo options. He doesn't have the power to justify his weight.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo doesn't exactly have a versatile moveset.

His up tilt and up throw don't work.

His only tilt combo option is down tilt and something else.


Sakurai left Mewtwo as incomplete mess.

And no, I still don't think he's a true glass cannon. He has some powerful smashes and above average throws, but they aren't remotely like the heavyweights or ROy in power, and he doesn't have much combo options. He doesn't have the power to justify his weight.

Sorry, but if all you care about is power then you should probably just play one of those heavies and call it a day.
Maybe you'll miss having a useful projectile. Maybe you'll miss being able to do more when descending than just airdodging, trying to challenge or retreating to the ledge. Maybe when people start catching on to your mediocre recoveries you'll wish you had all of Mewtwo's options.

But hey, at least you'll be KOing somewhat faster.

Roy has only two moves that hit that hard, fsmash which has a tiny sweetspot and a charged flare blade. Neither of which he's going to land often except on a big mistake.

You also left out jab as a combo starter.

You want Mewtwo to easily kill earlier than he dies, congratulations, you've just invalidated all of the heavies.

 

[Browny]

upthrow doesnt work guys you heard it here first

Stronger than Ness' bthrow when on the other half of the stage, stronger than charizards uthrow when its landing on a platform is completely non-functional.

 

[Metros]

His up tilt and up throw don't work.

His only tilt combo option is down tilt and something else.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

 

[pikazz]

to those who dont understand the difference between Charizard and Mewtwos UpThrow, here I scaled down how it works:

Mewtwo's % dealing is 1% more than Charizards, making Mewtwos Up throw in % scale

Mewtwo's Base Knockback (always same knockback no matter what % opponent has) is higher meaning that Mewtwos Up Throw launches higher and more constant at lower % than Charizard, making his Up Throw stronger than Charizard at Low%

but however, Charizards Knockback Growth (KBG is based on %, meaning the more % opponent has, the harder launch) is much higher than Mewtwos Up Throw, making Charizards throw stronger at High %


so in theory. on FD base, Charizards Up Throw kills the opponent earlier than Mewtwo at Higher %
at BF highest platform, Mewtwo Up Throws Kills the opponent earlier than Charizard at Lower %

 

[Browny]

so in theory. on FD base, Charizards Up Throw kills the opponent earlier than Mewtwo at Higher %

This theory is wrong though, because its assuming lowest level play.

In that level of play Link and Little mac are the best characters in the game but we dont talk about that. Anyone who knows anything about the game knows DI and charizards uthrow is so slow that there is no reason anyone who is awake is going to die earlier than mewtwos uthrow due to no DI.

 

[pikazz]

This theory is wrong though, because its assuming lowest level play.

In that level of play Link and Little mac are the best characters in the game but we dont talk about that. Anyone who knows anything about the game knows DI and charizards uthrow is so slow that there is no reason anyone who is awake is going to die earlier than mewtwos uthrow due to no DI.

Charizard UpThrow with DI while Mewtwos UpThrow with no DI. if you will compare, please make atleast 2 objects being in the same caterory (like Mewtwo WITH DI or Charizard without DI) and tell me the differences. right now its like you are trying to compare Watermelon with milk.

the theory comes from what Furret24 said
" 12%, 72b/65g
11%, 50b/220g"
Numbers dont lie

also, if I am not mistaken, Mewtwos Upthrow is as slow Charizard (just a tad fast but not quick), it gives you time to actually make DI from Mewtwo aswell so you basically burst yourself.
can easy to a video comparention between these 2

 

[Browny]

I posted that short clip multiple times in this thread, just look at it. With perfect DI, Mewtwo kills at 135% and Charizard kills at 159%. DI that no player should be missing because you have at least 3/4 of a second to react to it and its telegraphed on top of that. There is nothing else to discuss.

You say that in theory Charizards uthrow is stronger. Yet in practice, this is clearly not the case.

If I didnt have comprehensive evidence of Mewtwo killing 24% earlier from centre stage, your theory would remain valid.

You wanna argue semantics and technicalities on what throw is stronger based on knockback and not how early it KOs, go ahead. Nothing is going to change the fact that Mewtwo KO's significantly earlier with uthrow.

 

[Furret24]

I posted that short clip multiple times in this thread, just look at it. With perfect DI, Mewtwo kills at 135% and Charizard kills at 159%. DI that no player should be missing because you have at least 3/4 of a second to react to it and its telegraphed on top of that. There is nothing else to discuss.

You say that in theory Charizards uthrow is stronger. Yet in practice, this is clearly not the case.

If I didnt have comprehensive evidence of Mewtwo killing 24% earlier from centre stage, your theory would remain valid.

You wanna argue semantics and technicalities on what throw is stronger based on knockback and now how early it KOs, go ahead. Nothing is going to change the fact that Mewtwo KO's significantly earlier with uthrow.

Charizard's is stronger. Mewtwo's just kills earlier due to it's angle.

 

[Deleted member]

Charizard's is stronger. Mewtwo's just kills earlier due to it's angle.

You win this game by killing first. Charizard's throw being stronger is meaningless if it's ridiculously hurt by DI making it less practical in top level of play, rendering Mewtwo's being able to kill earlier and therefor better.

 

[Mo433]

Up tilt definitely works for combos. I've Up tilt to combo into Back air or up smash. Mewtwo is extremely good at punishing, but I think his main problem is dealing with pressure up close. He pretty much can't do anything against fast characters, which really sucks. On top of that, he gets juggled really easily.

 

[pikazz]

okay, tested the Upthrows on both FD and highest point of BF with no DI:

Mewtwo Kills Mario 135% on FD and 106% on BF

Charizard Kills Mario 125~% on FD and 105% on BF

Charizard is stronger. however on any higher platforms than BF Mewtwo will kill earlier.

also, Charizard isnt straight up, its in a 80~ degrees while mewtwo is completely 90 degrees/vertical. yes that makes Charizards UpThrow easier to survive cause you can DI downwards and towards the stage. however as I understand, the DI on completely vertical moves (up and down) have small DI downward on Up and none DI on Down/Meteor attack, making Mewtwos UpThrow kill earlier due DI. if Charizards Angle was completely upwards, it would kill even faster with and without DI.

and no, angle does not count into the power case. its basically a contest who can throw the ball from point A to B the fastest no matter angle. if we comparing angles too it would be pretty much comparing Ganons Side Tilt with DAir

TLDR version. Charizard throw is stronger, tho the angle makes its easier to survive

 

[meleebrawler]

Why do we get so hung up on up throw comparsions? Is it THAT important if Mewtwo's is technically the strongest or not?
It feels like people just miss the Melee days where his uthrow was pretty much uncontested in lethality (and also one his very few good KO options), especially in a game where such throws were few and far between to begin with. Or maybe people secretly want his uthrow to not be the strongest so that they can add it to the list of complaints.

This theory is wrong though, because its assuming lowest level play.

In that level of play Link and Little mac are the best characters in the game but we dont talk about that. Anyone who knows anything about the game knows DI and charizards uthrow is so slow that there is no reason anyone who is awake is going to die earlier than mewtwos uthrow due to no DI.

Funny that you should mention low-level play, because glass cannons usually suffer there. Going back to the Akuma example, sure he can effective with basic gohadouken zoning and goshoryuken anti-airing, but why pick him when Ryu can perform the same basic strategies but with far more health? If you can't make the most out of everything Akuma or Mewtwo has at his disposal, there's no real reason to put up with their lower health.

 

[godogod]

Sorry, but if all you care about is power then you should probably just play one of those heavies and call it a day.
Maybe you'll miss having a useful projectile. Maybe you'll miss being able to do more when descending than just airdodging, trying to challenge or retreating to the ledge. Maybe when people start catching on to your mediocre recoveries you'll wish you had all of Mewtwo's options.

But hey, at least you'll be KOing somewhat faster.

Roy has only two moves that hit that hard, fsmash which has a tiny sweetspot and a charged flare blade. Neither of which he's going to land often except on a big mistake.

You also left out jab as a combo starter.

You want Mewtwo to easily kill earlier than he dies, congratulations, you've just invalidated all of the heavies.

Not sure if undercover developer or a delusional fanboy with faulty logic. where the did I say I only want power from him and that would magically fix all of his problems? i'd rather have him balanced out with more weight(like medium weight at the most) than extra power(besides hitbox issues, faster tilts and a few other things). And how does him having more power negate all the heavies in this game?!

The truth of the matter is that anybody who calls him a glass-cannon, is dead wrong and doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. He's all glass and no-cannon. His KO power is average, or slightly above average at best. That doesn't make up for his weight or his other shortcomings. He dies earlier than he kills ,and his combo viability is abysmal and pretty much 90% of them relies on down tilt to another move.

Calling him a glass cannon is like saying he's actually balanced, and its honestly sabotaging the community's efforts in getting the buffs he deserves to actually be balanced.

 

[meleebrawler]

Not sure if undercover developer or a delusional fanboy with faulty logic. where the did I say I only want power from him and that would magically fix all of his problems? i'd rather have him balanced out with more weight(like medium weight at the most) than extra power(besides hitbox issues, faster tilts and a few other things). And how does him having more power negate all the heavies in this game?!

The truth of the matter is that anybody who calls him a glass-cannon, is dead wrong and doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. He's all glass and no-cannon. His KO power is average, or slightly above average at best. That doesn't make up for his weight or his other shortcomings. He dies earlier than he kills ,and his combo viability is abysmal and pretty much 90% of them relies on down tilt to another move.

Calling him a glass cannon is like saying he's actually balanced, and its honestly sabotaging the community's efforts in getting the buffs he deserves to actually be balanced.

You say you don't want Mewtwo's power to be buffed, and yet all you do is complain how he can't easily get KOs at like 70% like some heavyweights can?

The problem with focusing only on Mewtwo's kill percents is that you neglect everything else Mewtwo has: good mobility, the strongest projectile in the game with a reflector on top and fantastic recovery and edgeguarding. His throws inflict high damage and so do his aerials. He could arguably be a rather functional character without any combos but he has them anyway, and are generally far longer than any heavy could ever manage, and he has more than just dtilt to start them; jab, utilt, nair and even short-hopped uairs on tall opponents all can be very effective combo starters with practice. Dtilt is just his safest and most versatile.

The community is doing more than just curling up in defeat and crying for buffs. The existence of these threads should be enough to prove that:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwos-big-book-o-combos-8-characters-done.413911/
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-psychic-log-mewtwos-metagame-discussion.415950/

Or are these threads and the people working on them sabotaging Mewtwo's chances as well by trying to find what makes Mewtwo work? Because the buff-listing thread is SO productive.

You have every right to believe Mewtwo is still too frail to justify all of these positive traits, but as it is glass cannon (of the defensive nature, mind you) is really the best way to describe him for those who don't see him as trash.

 

[Exegguter]

You say you don't want Mewtwo's power to be buffed, and yet all you do is complain how he can't easily get KOs at like 70% like some heavyweights can?

The problem with focusing only on Mewtwo's kill percents is that you neglect everything else Mewtwo has: good mobility, the strongest projectile in the game with a reflector on top and fantastic recovery and edgeguarding. His throws inflict high damage and so do his aerials. He could arguably be a rather functional character without any combos but he has them anyway, and are generally far longer than any heavy could ever manage, and he has more than just dtilt to start them; jab, utilt, nair and even short-hopped uairs on tall opponents all can be very effective combo starters with practice. Dtilt is just his safest and most versatile.

The community is doing more than just curling up in defeat and crying for buffs. The existence of these threads should be enough to prove that:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwos-big-book-o-combos-8-characters-done.413911/
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-psychic-log-mewtwos-metagame-discussion.415950/

Or are these threads and the people working on them sabotaging Mewtwo's chances as well by trying to find what makes Mewtwo work? Because the buff-listing thread is SO productive.

You have every right to believe Mewtwo is still too frail to justify all of these positive traits, but as it is glass cannon (of the defensive nature, mind you) is really the best way to describe him for those who don't see him as trash.

Thank you. All this theory and comparisons with other characters sickens me too. There is no such thing as a ''trash'' character in smash 4 like Kirby in melee. Sure a character can be not as good as others but if you came to that conclusion don't pick the character simple as that.

Uthrow kills perfectly fine (in my matches mostly around 120% ish). A fair offstage kills ****ing low. Dtilt to jumpcanceld usmash/fair x2 deals heavy damage. His shadowball kills around 90% or something. His jab is good. His reflector is good etc. Utilt in usmash kills around 100 XD

There are so many things to work with imo for him to be completly written off....