Given the new up-throw, how important is flying slam and Bowser bomb?

[Cronoc]

So, given that 1.1.3 gave us our uthrow combos, it seems like flying slam ("klaw" by it's other name) doesn't have as much use. The range isn't as good as our grab, and that grab now usually confirms into more than the 18% that would be gained by flying slam. Besides Bowsercides (when rules allow or when a stock ahead), what function does this move have for us besides as a landing cancel? I suppose after 110% or so it's still a kill move, though uthrow -> uair is still available, if less guaranteed. But it's still easier to land that grab than risk whiffing yet another klaw. The invincibility on flying slam makes me more confident in using it in the villager matchup, but besides very specific contexts like that I'm having trouble thinking of when I'd want to use it now.

In much the same light, Bowser bomb has been historically considered the optimal punish when one has 11 frames to spare, a quick 25%, and a possible early kill if the opponent is around 85-90%+ and it's not staled. I'm not saying that at all percents uthrow combos now do more damage, but the damage difference between a uthrow combo and Bowser bomb doesn't seem great enough to warrant the risk of throwing out Bowser bomb now. Since this patch I find myself very loathe to throw this move out, instead using it mostly for ledge snaps.

So I bring it to you guys. Where do these moves now sit in a competitive Bowser's gameplan?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'd say they have the same roles.

This patch just gave us another kill option among the countless ones we already have.

 

[Conn1496]

I never used Klaw much before anyway. -just only ever as Bowsercide and/or a shield punish when I'm falling towards a shield - usually together. Will say though that it's still pretty good for repositioning, and the fact you can drag them up to higher platforms means you can sometimes get cheeky early kills with it where a U-throw wouldn't have (Battlefield, anyone?).

As for Bowser Bomb, U-throw combos just don't replace it at all. I use both pretty frequently with success. I tend to punish people with Bowser Bomb not as often on Jab confirm anymore, but it's still good and works for mix-ups, sweeping people off the ledge, and catching people off guard too... It just has a lot of uses...

U-throw isn't really a replacement for anything other than Klaw as a kill throw, and it was a poor kill throw anyway since it had a high chance to horribly backfire. Even then if you're thirsty for the Bowsercide, you'll still go for Klaw.

Infact I had a game today where I had the pleasure of hitting all 3 with success. First stock was Bowser Bomb Shieldbreak > F-smash. Second was a ton of U-throw damage building and then a falling shield punish for the kill with a basically guaranteed Klaw Bowsercide due to the % difference.

-again, there's no real replacements here, just improvements and new options. I mean, c'mon, U-throw is nice, but mixing up jab into Bomb for a shield break and kill at 40% is just nasty. (Infact, I tend to go for bomb first because it starts them in the habit of rolling which is just horrible when you're against someone who'll capitalise on that with a guaranteed kill set-up throw from the read.)

 

[S_B]

I never used Klaw much before anyway. -just only ever as Bowsercide and/or a shield punish when I'm falling towards a shield - usually together. Will say though that it's still pretty good for repositioning, and the fact you can drag them up to higher platforms means you can sometimes get cheeky early kills with it where a U-throw wouldn't have (Battlefield, anyone?).

As for Bowser Bomb, U-throw combos just don't replace it at all. I use both pretty frequently with success. I tend to punish people with Bowser Bomb not as often on Jab confirm anymore, but it's still good and works for mix-ups, sweeping people off the ledge, and catching people off guard too... It just has a lot of uses...

U-throw isn't really a replacement for anything other than Klaw as a kill throw, and it was a poor kill throw anyway since it had a high chance to horribly backfire. Even then if you're thirsty for the Bowsercide, you'll still go for Klaw.

Infact I had a game today where I had the pleasure of hitting all 3 with success. First stock was Bowser Bomb Shieldbreak > F-smash. Second was a ton of U-throw damage building and then a falling shield punish for the kill with a basically guaranteed Klaw Bowsercide due to the % difference.

-again, there's no real replacements here, just improvements and new options. I mean, c'mon, U-throw is nice, but mixing up jab into Bomb for a shield break and kill at 40% is just nasty. (Infact, I tend to go for bomb first because it starts them in the habit of rolling which is just horrible when you're against someone who'll capitalise on that with a guaranteed kill set-up throw from the read.)

^What he said, especially about falling into shields with klaw.^

Then there's catching people in the air with klaw when they didn't expect it. Though, I like the fact that klaw is no longer one of our most reliable kill options because it could be used against us.

And bomb still has its uses, for sure. Uthrow is great and all, but it's no shieldbreak > fsmash... (though most good opponents won't be hit with it)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, Flying Slam is no longer debatably our best move. But most of its utility remains. Plus it will kill extremely well on Battlefield's top platform. Both at a faster rate than Uthrow and Uair, and more effectively against slow fallers who are better equipped for escaping Uthrows followups anyway. Using it to land on your feet out of tumble is still going to afford us many options. And the average player doesn't expect to be grabbed by a move from the air, they just pull up shield for any aerial coming at them. Aerial flying Slam eats shielding targets, and affords you frame advantage on landing if they decided to dodge instead. And getting a stock lead and Bowserciding an opponent for the game finish is still a handy way of making sure they don't turn the match around. Flying Slam isn't a literally worse move now, it's just not as necessary of a tool for optimizing Bowser's strategies.

Bowser Bomb I'm not sure is too effected by Uthrow. It's still our hard punish tool, shieldbreaking still pleases the crowds, It does unexpected things like covers platforms from the ground. Plus our grabs are really laggy. The 37 frames of endlag on our dash grab is almost as damning as the 55 landing lag frames of Bowser Bomb.

 

[Kerthorok]

We have more tools not fewer. Side-B and Down-B are just as good, we just have another option that is better in some circumstances.

 

[Cronoc]

I'll say, klaw is much better for Bowsercides now with it's higher speed. The whole thing happens very fast. Even if no differences in control are found, just the speed of it makes it much easier to finish a match with.

I don't mean to say that these moves aren't good, but that from the perspective of pure damage they aren't the best options now. At midpercents I'd rather uthrow into nair than throw a klaw, and Bowser bomb is debatable. I'm still doing it now, but that's habits being what they are. They're more situational than before.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'll say, klaw is much better for Bowsercides now with it's higher speed. The whole thing happens very fast. Even if no differences in control are found, just the speed of it makes it much easier to finish a match with.

I don't mean to say that these moves aren't good, but that from the perspective of pure damage they aren't the best options now. At midpercents I'd rather uthrow into nair than throw a klaw, and Bowser bomb is debatable. I'm still doing it now, but that's habits being what they are. They're more situational than before.

The change in control is an indirect one; the fact that it's faster gives less time to control where it goes.

 

[S_B]

Another thing to point out: you can klaw behind you right out of shield, making it a pretty good option for someone behind you who you suspect may shield your fortress.

 

[Cronoc]

Another thing to point out: you can klaw behind you right out of shield, making it a pretty good option for someone behind you who you suspect may shield your fortress.

Yeah the turnaround perfect shield klaw is a favorite of mine, and the least flubbable good punish compared to the turnaround Bowser bomb or throw. Klaw still has it's place in that situation.

 

[MagiusNecros]

With Uthrow, Bowser Bomb has more applications, since you can kill confirm a lot of people in the 80-100 range with just Uthrow and an immediate Bowser Bomb. More prominent on Slip Bomb.

Klaw is faster now meaning the opponent has LESS TIME to react to it and that means we now have more control over our move.

 

[pitfall356]

Klaw flips so fast now that you basically have full control. I easily netted Bowsercide for a win two matches in a row earlier and the enemy didn't see it coming at all. It doesn't have grab armor, but it's still great for landing, falling on shields, and now it comes out fast enough to have complete control. Klaw is great. Just pay attention to the situation.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

I still see plenty of use for Koopa Klaw despite the U-throw buffs. As has been said in the thread already, its just expanded our tools really rather than be a full replacement as side-b and down-b still have plenty of utility.

To me I see the U-throw changes bridging the gap between early % neutral damage and Klaw as our finisher at high %. U-throw, at least for me so far, is now a brilliant way to get someone from say 30%/40% towards kill %, where I can then start trying to get a Klaw in to put an end to the stock there and then. Before, it was mainly about trades and landing key hits. Now we have a method to convert the early game into an end game, and very quickly too.

Klaw is still my go-to finisher move when I want to end a stock though and down-b is still a great mix up from jab 1s, so in that regard, they're both still important and useful, just now I have another asset to help me in the neutral.

 

[Big Sean]

The state of the game right now is that bowser loses more than he wins with bowsercide. Even if klaw did 28% every time, it's still a liability and standing grab still might be the right solution almost every time. A command grab is still a great thing to have though. Platform traps, landing etc etc ... If our opponents somehow get to 125% and you have an option for klaw, just go for it. A guaranteed kill is better than calculating on the fly if your rage will make them unreachable by up air.

Bowser Bomb is still amazing. I suppose there is a situation where you have a choice between grab and bowser bomb. Specifically when people are landing and aren't going to air dodge or use an aerial. Then I guess my choice of "always bowser bomb" might take some reconsideration. I'll still probably bowser bomb though. bowser bomb puts the fear of god into people. Nair ... meh.

Yeah the turnaround perfect shield klaw is a favorite of mine, and the least flubbable good punish compared to the turnaround Bowser bomb or throw. Klaw still has it's place in that situation.

Is turnaround klaw really that good though? Saying this as a person who has never done a fast turnaround standing grab. Couldn't we just train to learn to do that? Is it any slower? I would imagine it's just really hard.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is turnaround klaw really that good though? Saying this as a person who has never done a fast turnaround standing grab. Couldn't we just train to learn to do that? Is it any slower? I would imagine it's just really hard.

Standing grab is one frame slower than Side B. Plus however many frames are in between your turn around and grab inputs. Even with practice you could expect no less than two. The subtle movement is hard to do quickly. Side B doesn't care how hard you press on the control stick. Easier and faster. But if any grabs are on the table, I'd sooner recommend an immediate pivot grab away from them for some added safety from their attacks that would have stuffed either standing grab or side B. It would reach just as far too.

 

[Sensane]

I faced a Bowser player once and I got rekt. Mostly because I completely forgot I was in the new patch and Bowser's new combo throw caught me off guard. Flying slam is a command grab, so I don't think anyone would consider it useless. Also, there are tons of followups after up throw that can rack up to about 30-40%, and that's just with an aerial followup.

 

[Big-Cat]

Klaw: Guaranteed 18% damage. No need to do a DI read to get UThrow > UAir for the kill.
Bomb: Really? This move is killer as an emergency footsies tool and is one of many jab mixup tools. Nevermind punishing some unsafe, but not dropkick unsafe moves.

 

[Cronoc]

The state of the game right now is that bowser loses more than he wins with bowsercide. Even if klaw did 28% every time, it's still a liability and standing grab still might be the right solution almost every time. A command grab is still a great thing to have though. Platform traps, landing etc etc ... If our opponents somehow get to 125% and you have an option for klaw, just go for it. A guaranteed kill is better than calculating on the fly if your rage will make them unreachable by up air.

Bowser Bomb is still amazing. I suppose there is a situation where you have a choice between grab and bowser bomb. Specifically when people are landing and aren't going to air dodge or use an aerial. Then I guess my choice of "always bowser bomb" might take some reconsideration. I'll still probably bowser bomb though. bowser bomb puts the fear of god into people. Nair ... meh.

Is turnaround klaw really that good though? Saying this as a person who has never done a fast turnaround standing grab. Couldn't we just train to learn to do that? Is it any slower? I would imagine it's just really hard.

Ha people should be afraid of nair though. Just cause it doesn't look like it's hitting hard doesn't mean it's not doing incredible damage. But I get that visually it's less impressive.

Turnaround klaw is really quick, and I've whiffed and screwed up the alternates (reverse Bowser bomb, reverse grab) enough for klaw to be my first choice. Pivot grab works if it was a laggy attack, but after a perfect shielded close range aerial klaw does it every time. Specifically, with Bowser's back to them. If Bowser is facing towards them there are other options.