Gimp Man! - Edge Guarding Topic/Discussion

[Red Shirt KRT]

Gimp Man! - A Mega Man edge guarding topic! (WIP)
(Felt like being un-creative with the name)

So since this is the first post I thought we could discuss mega mans edgeguarding options. We can have the different techniques listed and say which characters/stages the specific tactic works best for.

As we discuss we can have a write up for each technique as well as pros/cons and maybe videos eventually.

Ill be working on this much more so it looks prettier as we go, just wanted to really get the thread started so we can discuss the different options mega man has.

Leaf Shield:
As most of you know the LS can be a great tool for gimping some characters. When it collided with opponents offstage the hit stun can really disrupt players' recoveries. If added into a footstool it creates even more problems for them sending them downwards towards their doom.

Here is a video of a Leaf Shield gimp on Fox

Characters to use on
-Captain Falcon
-Ness
-Fox
-Falco
-Diddy

B-Air:
Best when Reverse Aerial Rushed to hit opponents recovering.

If opponent is recovering from low Bair is great if you run off the edge and use it to hit them back into the stage. On stages with angled walls it will stage spike them if they don't tech.

Also can be a great tool if the opponent grabs the ledge. If you can ledge trump them it will pop them off the ledge then you can fall away from ledge double jump and get them with the Bair.



D-Air:
Amazing meteor smash with range that works well on most characters to take a stock. Short or full hop to D-Air to send them into the abyss. Be careful on characters with reflectors as it can be reflected by some characters.

Crash Bomb:
When using the crashbomb it can be difficult to use as a finishing/edge guarding move, if successful though you look like a complete badass for setting up a "combo" kill. Most times it must be attached to the opponent before you knock them offstage. It just gives them another attack that they need to worry about when they are trying to recover. I will post a video of some of these when I get a chance.

Also what works well with Crash Bomb is after you knock the opponent off stage, jump off and attach one to the ledge. If timed right when they come back to recover it will blast them back off the stage.

D-Smash:
D-smash isn't used as often for ledgeguarding. If an opponent is coming directly horizontal (fox's Side B) it can help to KO or knock them off. Also can be used to punish ledge hop aerials or rolls up on stage if read.

F-Smash:
Another great move for horizontal recoveries. Also if opponent is just hanging on ledge and Fsmash is charged it will hit certain characters below the stage.

Lemons:
If opponents ledge hop up lemons can knock them back down. Also is good for disrupting Up B's (Fox, Ness). If opponents get up on stage and are directly on the ledge the hitstun from lemons will knock them over the edge.

U-Air:
I find if opponents are sent up high off the stage and coming back that a double jumped Uair can be a good surprise move that can knock them off the top. Most opponents don't see this one coming, and works really well on the floaties.

Metal Blade:
Very versatile edge guard move. Can be thrown up down or straight off the edge to cover a wide range of recovery angles. Also can be Z-dropped for a different falling speed as well as thrown on angles.

U-tilt:
Rarely used for edge guarding but can be a surprise for the opponent. If they ledge hop aerials you can shield then U-tilt them.

Danger Warp:
Great against opponents recovering high. As it floats up and away from the ledge. Very safe edgeguard move. Also when paired with Beat it can be used before you use beat when you are recovering. The DW will cover the edge to keep the opponent from edge guarding you.

Shadow Blade:
Same as metal blade for edgeguarding and disrupting recoveries.

Tornado Hold:


Hyper Bomb:


PS I had to share this video, it had me using 3 really good gimps to kill falcon.

Any suggestions for what should be added would be great!

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

How about we have the first discussion on his Fsmash seems logical.

For starters stay away from using it on characters with reflectors. It can be painful and degrading to get hit with it.

 

[Sorichuudo]

How about we have the first discussion on his Fsmash seems logical.

For starters stay away from using it on characters with reflectors. It can be painful and degrading to get hit with it.

The biggest offenders here in the "i can use a reflector when off stage" category are Mario and Fox. But for those who like to use Fox's side b to get back on stage, a quick Fsmash can actually caught them off guard. Still, hitting mario with the charge shot as an edgeguard is pretty much out of the question, the cape is too safe for him to use, so bait it and do a fair/bair instead.
Other characters with a reflector are also dangerous, but theirs are not as safe to use as the two mentioned. I have fought palutenas who fell to their deaths after using the reflector on midair.


I believe that for the other characters Fsmash can actually work wonders if you time it right. Throw up some MB and maybe a LS, force them to get in your line of fire and CHARGE SHOT TO THE FACE.

 

[Nate1080]

I like to do MB into F-Air or even just F-Air to gimp/edge-guard, especially if they choose to recover edge level to the stage or below. This is especially effective on Little Mac and even Ness.

Also, should be noted that using the D-Air on Mario is dangerous as he can cape it and kill you.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I like to do MB into F-Air or even just F-Air to gimp/edge-guard, especially if they choose to recover edge level to the stage or below. This is especially effective on Little Mac and even Ness.

Also, should be noted that using the D-Air on Mario is dangerous as he can cape it and kill you.

Found that out the hard way some time ago. I was at 60%,maybe less, and i thought "eh, i know he can reflect it but let's try it out, no way i'm dying so early".
Cue reflected HK and me dying off the top. I know reflectors increase the power and whatnot but seriously, that was ridiculous.

 

[Nate1080]

It can kill at around 40-50 percent if I remember correctly. Its happened to me a few times.

To be honest, Mario is sort of hard to gimp safely anyways because of the cape and his Up-B.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Does anyone know if leaf shield can be reflected when it is circling you?

 

[---]

Does anyone know if leaf shield can be reflected when it is circling you?

Never tested, but am 99% sure you can only reflect it once thrown. Only after being throw does it count as a projectile.

 

[Sorichuudo]

To be honest, Mario is sort of hard to gimp safely anyways because of the cape and his Up-B.

Yeah pretty annoying, to be honest i usually gimp him by fair him after he used his DJ, or bair to outright kill him. Actually forcing him to use his DJ and fair him is kinda hard for me, but i think that's just me.
I want to try simply jumping and nair sweetspot to send him far, but is dangerous not only because of his cape, but his fair. That is one meteor smash that's WAY too easy to hit.


One thing i'm trying to pull of on training:

Crash bomber on the edge, grab the edge, jump and dair as the explosion happens. The idea is for the explosion to hit the opponent when he is about to grab the ledge, be it after his up B or not, and that helps you hit the HK and spike'em. I did this once by accident against a friend, trying to see if i can actually make that a thing. Situational and seemingly too hard, but boy does it feel good if you actually do it.

Think this could work? Having some trouble doing it against a cpu cause they seem to guess everytime and do their best to recover high, but granted i didn't try it that much yet. Plus there is those guys who are invincible during their up B right?

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I think the timing would be too hard to consistently hit. And if they sweet spot the edge they won't get hit.

Next time I face Mario I'm gonna try leaf sheiks disrupting him and see how it goes

 

[Sorichuudo]

I think the timing would be too hard to consistently hit. And if they sweet spot the edge they won't get hit.

Next time I face Mario I'm gonna try leaf sheiks disrupting him and see how it goes

Yeah, what i'm trying is for the explosion to hit before they sweetspot the edge, but you're right, timing is way too hard, we are better off just going for fairs or bairs in that case. Will try to pull this off sometimes, but no way this is usuable, specially in a tournament match.

Now about Mario, on Chopper Dave's guide http://smashboards.com/threads/wood-mans-treehouse-a-leaf-shield-guide.374719/

it mentions to be careful trying that on characters like Mario or Marth, since the priority/invencibility of their up B will beat the LS.

My friend uses Mario a lot, and i must say, i rarely gimp him. I usually kill him with usmash, utilt or bair, like i said, his fair is way too good and the cape is annoying. Anyone out there with some experience on how to keep this plumber and his moustache off stage?

 

[Locke 06]

Sweet spot NAir seems to be an obvious omission from the OP. Same with metal blades (most notably z-dropped).

 

[Sorichuudo]

Sweet spot NAir seems to be an obvious omission from the OP. Same with metal blades (most notably z-dropped).

Agreed, tho i did mentioned the nair sweetspot when talking about Mario, just that against him i feel safer going for something else.

 

[Locke 06]

His fair shouldn't hit you if you're edge guarding him. It has like... 20 frames of startup. Also, if you meet him with Nair which comes out below 5 frames? You should be able to interrupt his fair.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I'll add those to the OP. It is a work in progress.

 

[Nate1080]

His F-air can also gimp some recovery options by pushing them a little further away from the ledge or interrupt up-Bs.

Its easier done on characters with weak or awkward recoveries.


Little Mac
Ness
DK
Koopa Kids
Diddy Kong
Luigi
Mario


Off the top of my head, these are all the characters that I've personally gimped this way. There's probably a few more that I cannot remember.

 

[Locke 06]

His F-air can also gimp some recovery options by pushing them a little further away from the ledge or interrupt up-Bs.

Its easier done on characters with weak or awkward recoveries.


DK

Off the top of my head, these are all the characters that I've personally gimped this way. There's probably a few more that I cannot remember.

DK shouldn't be getting gimped by FAir. His horizontal recovery is one of the best/can travel basically the length of FD in the air. FAir hits him up and away. If you steal DK's 2nd jump while he's recovering low, then I guess yeah... but a metal blade would work better in that situation as it would steal the jump keep him low to take advantage of his poor vertical.

 

[Nate1080]

Maybe I just get lucky, but whenever I face DK he's recovering either slightly below or level to the edge of the stage and combined with his poor vertical, he'll just miss the edge.


I honestly don't think DK's recovery is that good and is just so easy to gimp in a variety of ways for Megaman, especially via D-air.

 

[Locke 06]

Yeah, that sounds right... but FAir sends him up and away. As someone who secondaries DK, I find that suspect. That's all.

DK's recovery is interesting, because it lasts so long you can sort of stall with it before going to the ledge. That said, if you get spiked downwards you're not coming back at all.

 

[Nate1080]

From what I remember (I don't have the game near me as I type this to test this out atm), but it doesn't push him up so much where he'll be above the stage unless he has a jump. Seems to push him mostly away, at least enough to follow up with something if needed.

 

[ChopperDave]

I mentioned this in the Crash Bomb thread, but one of the neat things about the move is how it forces one of these three situations:

- take damage and knockback
- airdodge
- ledge grab for invincibility frames

All three of these can be taken advantage of if you predict what your opponent will do. Bair/nair/fair is a good followup for the first two situations, and ledge trump to bair followup is great for the third.

@ Red Shirt KRT , you should maybe consider a discussion of custom moves in here too. Hyper Bomb, Shadow Blade, Tornado Hold, and of course Danger Wrap are all useful edgeguarding tools with unique applications.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

All those are up for discussion as well. I will add them to the OP

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I just realized almost all of MMs moves can be a good edge guard move. He just has so many projectiles.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I found at higher percents if the opponent is recovering very high that a double jumped/rush coiled Uair can be easy to knock them off the top.

Not many people see it coming either.

 

[AnchorTea]

When you hit someone with a lemon in midair at close range; they suffer some serious knockback from a move that has low damage.

It's amazing at gimping.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Get them with the first 2 to try and protect you and hitstun them and then sweet spot the third would be a good move

 

[ChopperDave]

So Tornado Hold is a super fun gimping tool.

Just run off stage (fastfall optional) hold back toward stage and up, and press B to do a b-reversed Tornado Hold. Follow up with a double jumped bair, Danger Wrap, Metal Blade, or Hyper Bomb depending on where they land.

If you time it right, Tornado Hold is pretty much impossible to avoid and the best thing a recovering opponent can hope to do is air dodge and DI so that they don't take all the hits. It's even hard for "ungimpable" characters like Sheik to avoid this TH + bair combo.

If you fast fall and TH to ledge grab, you can cover the area above, in front of, and below the ledge with a massive hitbox and windbox, and you can immediately followup with a bair from ledge.

Also if they're too close to the stage and/or DI poorly, it can stage spike!

 

[mega4000]

So Tornado Hold is a super fun gimping tool.

Just run off stage (fastfall optional) hold back toward stage and up, and press B to do a b-reversed Tornado Hold. Follow up with a double jumped bair, Danger Wrap, Metal Blade, or Hyper Bomb depending on where they land.

If you time it right, Tornado Hold is pretty much impossible to avoid and the best thing a recovering opponent can hope to do is air dodge and DI so that they don't take all the hits. It's even hard for "ungimpable" characters like Sheik to avoid this TH + bair combo.

If you fast fall and TH to ledge grab, you can cover the area above, in front of, and below the ledge with a massive hitbox and windbox, and you can immediately followup with a bair from ledge.

Also if they're too close to the stage and/or DI poorly, it can stage spike!

Could you post a video of this? (Mega Man gimping with tornado hold as you described).
You said in one of your older posts that tornado hold only worked with danger wrap and it was an amazing combination. Could you pls explain why on how to use both of them properly? Also, could you explain how to do the tornado hold > danger wrap combo? because sometimes i can't guess where tornado hold is gonna send my opponent (left or right)

 

[ChopperDave]

Could you post a video of this? (Mega Man gimping with tornado hold as you described).
You said in one of your older posts that tornado hold only worked with danger wrap and it was an amazing combination. Could you pls explain why on how to use both of them properly? Also, could you explain how to do the tornado hold > danger wrap combo? because sometimes i can't guess where tornado hold is gonna send my opponent (left or right)

I don't have a capture card, unfortunately, but the next time I use it against my friends I'll be sure to save replays. Or I can beat up a few AIs, I guess.

I was wrong about DW being the only good followup to TH. Double jump bair/fair works well, too, and are probably more consistent. At highish percentages TH starts sending opponents too high for a bair follow up, though.

It takes a little practice to guess where TH will send someone. It seems to be influenced by their momentum going into the move, their weight, and how they DI. From what I've observed, if someone "enters" the tornado from one side (i.e, jump into it while recovering towards the stage), they'll get spat out on the same side. That could just be my friends not having figured out how to DI it properly though.

 

[mega4000]

I don't have a capture card, unfortunately, but the next time I use it against my friends I'll be sure to save replays. Or I can beat up a few AIs, I guess.

I was wrong about DW being the only good followup to TH. Double jump bair/fair works well, too, and are probably more consistent. At highish percentages TH starts sending opponents too high for a bair follow up, though.

It takes a little practice to guess where TH will send someone. It seems to be influenced by their momentum going into the move, their weight, and how they DI. From what I've observed, if someone "enters" the tornado from one side (i.e, jump into it while recovering towards the stage), they'll get spat out on the same side. That could just be my friends not having figured out how to DI it properly though.

how do you use the tornado hold > danger wrap combo? is just using the danger wrap just after the tornado ends? i try to do that but it never connects.

 

[ChopperDave]

how do you use the tornado hold > danger wrap combo? is just using the danger wrap just after the tornado ends? i try to do that but it never connects.

It's not really a combo so much as a string that can punish your opponent for making the wrong move after being caught by TH. I dunno what the timing is without the game in front of me. But IIRC you have to fall a little bit away from your opponent after the TH is complete (and by "a little bit," I mean like half a second), then send up a DW towards them.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Question, what's a good way to practice your edge guard game?

Outside of fighting other players, of course.

 

[ChopperDave]

Question, what's a good way to practice your edge guard game?

Outside of fighting other players, of course.

Practicing on AI isn't recommended, because in both Training and Smash modes the AI does dumb and predicable things, even at Lv9.

But if you must, you can go on training mode and pause after you send the AI offstage to force them to recover mid or low, at least. Otherwise they'll always recover high, and usually not in a terribly smart way.

You can also practice technical stuff that doesn't require another player. For example, you can practice the timing for z-dropping a metal blade and following up with bair a half second later, or running offstage and fast falling to ledge grab, or jumping offstage and fast falling into the "pocket" without grabbing the ledge.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Practicing on AI isn't recommended, because in both Training and Smash modes the AI does dumb and predicable things, even at Lv9.

But if you must, you can go on training mode and pause after you send the AI offstage to force them to recover mid or low, at least. Otherwise they'll always recover high, and usually not in a terribly smart way.

You can also practice technical stuff that doesn't require another player. For example, you can practice the timing for z-dropping a metal blade and following up with bair a half second later, or running offstage and fast falling to ledge grab, or jumping offstage and fast falling into the "pocket" without grabbing the ledge.

Yeah, i don't even practice fighting against the AI since they are so stupid...
But that helps, i want to try that, run off the edge, FF to ledge grab, and i really need to work on my z-drops, and by "work" i mean actually starting to use it.

 

[Rush 2112]

I've had luck with non-sweetspot lemons. It works best on people who aren't used to lemons so they don't always react quickly when their moves are cancelled. If they use their UpB or are simply above ground level, throw some lemons out and they will hit, opponent will fall, and if they're slow to react it can put them out of reach by the time they react. That happens less often.

I number of times when my opponent is on the ground, as close to the ledge as possible, I'll hit him with a lemon and it pushes him off the ledge and he starts falling. Not expecting it, he did a move and is now locked in that move's animation, and falls to his death xD I have some great replays with a few of those kills.

I don't like to use Leaf Shield much to gimp. I find other methods more effective, less dangerous, and when you have leaf sheild your kind of locked in to a few options and I don't like that.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

If any of you have video examples post them up and I will add them to the OP.

I put one of the leaf shield edge guard up in there

 

[Rush 2112]

Here's the Jab Gimp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3RB5ERj4yY

This example isn't exactly the scenario as the other gimps, since I'm pushing him to the edge. This is the first example I found as I'm scanning my recordings. I'll find more. It's just to show the effect and this can happen if he was trying to do a basic getup from the ledge.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I have noticed that lemons are very effective at knocking the opponent off stage when they are right near the ledge.
They must have just enough knockback to bump them off.

 

[duduh]

If I sent my opponent to far, sometimes I like to SH near the edge, Crash Bomb close to the edge (it isn't hard to get the timing to hit the edge, just wait for about 1 sec or something), then DJ back to the stage and proceed to do an actuall edgeguard. Often I'll miss my edgeguard but the CB will explode before he sweetspots the edge, and it can even stage spike him.

Also, not an edgeguard tool but it's almost the same like this, when I'm sent far from the stage, I like to throw a CB nearby the edge too... It's safe to throw it because of it's range and it can help, as long as I don't do wall jump shennanigans, 'cuz if I do it, it usally get the exact timming to explode on me x.x

Z drop a Metal Blade to some aerial follow up it's a legit edgeguarding tool, and it covers a HUGE space under the edge. But for some reason I don't like to Metal Blade downway, I think it's because of the lack of knockback.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

How about a Metal Blade down the ledge? I use that option most of the time