Getting out of sheik's chaingrab

[Scoops_HD]

I think we've all played that sheik before, the one who wears out their z button because all they care about is the w. Sheik's d-throw has a 80° base trajectory. Which when left un DI'ed allows sheik the free-est of regrabs, and although this guide won't always avoid that regrab, you can at least force them to work for it.

There are two optimal ways to DI the d-throw depending on the situation; max height and max distance.

Max distance is acheived by holding 17° down and away from sheik (as true perpendicular DI will fall inside of the dead zone). This angle will put the most distance between your characters, it doesn't guarantee you'll escape, but it's the toughest to follow up on and useful for positioning yourself under platforms. Also if you're on FD you want to use this angle to get off stage ASAP and be ready to DI the Fair (which should be DI'ed up and in) or wait for the chaingrab to run out at what I believe is 70%.

Max height is acheived by holding 50.5° up and into sheik and will send link straight upwards. This allows him to reach platforms sooner, and at 0% allows nairs before the regrab, but u-tilts and f-tilts may counter this. You might also be able to jump away but I've yet to test this as no shiek has learnt to sheild the nair yet.

It's important to note that just because these angles are optimal for positioning you shouldn't go for them everytime as it makes you predictable. Many sheiks will drop the chaingrab if you establish a pattern and then break it with some mix up DI, you need to experiment with your opponent and learn as the match progresses.


I've drawn a diagram to help display the angles:

 

[Scoops_HD]

Does anyone know for sure what percent link escapes sheiks chain grab?

 

[Thor]

I do not know when the chaingrab ends, but someone should answer that.

Related: You mention nairs at 0% break out of the chaingrab with the 90 degrees DI. Is it possible to uair her at that percent? It has more landing lag but does more damage and strikes me as probably safer on hit, while being only one frame slower than nair.

 

[Scoops_HD]

Up air comes out a frame after nair, so it seems like it's possible. But I've never landed it. Maybe the nair only works because it lifts links feet, I wish I had a simulator to test these things

 

[The Carpenter]

This might be something that could be tested further with 20xx hack pack? We couldn't set up a sheik to chaingrab of course but we could set her to grab repeatedly and always down throw

 

[SAUS]

Up-air might not put the hitboxes in the right spot. Shiek can shield grab that nair if you land in front, but worse, she can just CC grab it. Up-air will knockdown sooner if it hits, but both can be ASDI down regrabbed if Shiek is low enough (I don't know the percents they knock down, though).

DI away is not regrabbable at 0%. Shiek has to jab or f-tilt or opt for a tech chase (which honestly is not terribly hard, but Link's tech rolls do go far). If you can jump out, that might be the best option. Just know that 0% grab on you is not as bad.

I usually just try to make it ambiguous if they need to turn around or not. Then I throw in the max horizontal distance DI so they have to dash regrab.

I don't know the % that you can get out. I should try to find that out lol.

 

[Hunybear]

The initial strong hit of Nair will knock down a CC shiek at 80% and Uair will at 55%. If Uair can't be regrabed then it would be pretty awesome.

 

[Bravo_10]

I'm kinda amazed we never explicitly examined Sheik's chaingrab enough to know the percent you can jump out before. I did some testing on my own, and while I'm no expert with develop mode (I may have done something wrong), hitstun overlays seem to show that Link can jump out from a fresh d-throw at 68% before the throw. Which means the real escape percent is 74% after the throw, you'll have to look at how much damage each throw is doing to be sure you can escape.

This is of course assuming you DI by holding on the upper notch that is towards Sheik. I think next, I want to test the percent at which max height DI will let you tech platforms on every stage.

 

[squirrels4ev]

I play with a fiendish chaingrabbing computer science major often and we discussed her CG once. He recommended me to the video on Sheik's CG on herself that was published by SSBMTutorials on youtube (the one Kira runs). Link and Sheik have the same fall speed but Link is heavier so he doesn't get knocked back quite as far as Sheik. The difference in their weights is minimal - Sheik is 90 and Link 104, making Link 15.5% heavier than Sheik. Basically you can get out of the chaingrab the same way Sheik does only at slightly higher percents. On stages where you can't reach a platform in time for it to be relevant it's probably best to attempt to mix up the Sheik with ambiguous DI to make her miss. She can probably tilt>fair before Link can jump out but that may be worth looking into.

 

[SAUS]

I play with a fiendish chaingrabbing computer science major often and we discussed her CG once. He recommended me to the video on Sheik's CG on herself that was published by SSBMTutorials on youtube (the one Kira runs). Link and Sheik have the same fall speed but Link is heavier so he doesn't get knocked back quite as far as Sheik. The difference in their weights is minimal - Sheik is 90 and Link 104, making Link 15.5% heavier than Sheik. Basically you can get out of the chaingrab the same way Sheik does only at slightly higher percents. On stages where you can't reach a platform in time for it to be relevant it's probably best to attempt to mix up the Sheik with ambiguous DI to make her miss. She can probably tilt>fair before Link can jump out but that may be worth looking into.

Grabs don't actually use weight when determining knockback. They assume 100 weight. Character weight only slows down the throw animation - and even then, it only affects arbitrarily specific throws. It is the reason peach can chain grab spacies AND falcon, but marth can only chain grab spacies - marth's is affected by weight and peach's is not.

I actually don't know if Shiek's d-throw is affected by weight or not, but Link will get out at the same % as shiek if they have the exact same fall speed and assuming double jump can get you out of it.

 

[Hunybear]

Non of shieks throws are effected by weight.

 

[Bravo_10]

Grabs don't actually use weight when determining knockback. They assume 100 weight. Character weight only slows down the throw animation - and even then, it only affects arbitrarily specific throws. It is the reason peach can chain grab spacies AND falcon, but marth can only chain grab spacies - marth's is affected by weight and peach's is not.

I actually don't know if Shiek's d-throw is affected by weight or not, but Link will get out at the same % as shiek if they have the exact same fall speed and assuming double jump can get you out of it.

*** EDITED WITH CORRECT PERCENTS ***

I don't think the chaingrab percents are identical because Sheik and Link have different hurtboxes when tumbling. Link also has a slightly lower gravity than Sheik, which should let him escape the chaingrab a little earlier. The percents at which you can jump out of a frame-perfect regrab are as follows:
-> 90% after, 82% before fresh throw (Sheik has higher port)
-> 98% after, 90% before fresh throw (Link has higher port)

I also just tested platform tech percents. Here's what I got with maximum height DI:

Battlefield - 52% after throw (44% before)

Dreamland - 94% after throw (86% before)
You can jump out of the CG before this point, but it's still useful to know

Stadium - 22% after throw (14% before)

Yoshi's Story - Depends on where Sheik is standing!
-> Flat part of stage = 0% before throw!
-> Angled part, at ledge = 20% before throw... honestly just DI one rep of the CG towards center stage, then you can tech for free

FoD - Really hard to actually test. Seems like
-> Everything but max height = 0% before
-> Max height = 20-ish percent before?

Also according to Kira, a regrab is impossible in the Sheik-Sheik chaingrab below 7% before the throw. However I want to test this some because it always seems like I'm able to tech the ground as Link anywhere below 20%. I'll have to test it in develop mode myself, maybe it has something to do with his ECB placement.

 

[SAUS]

I know at 0-5ish you can definitely hit the ground with DI away. They usually end up just tech chasing me though (if they know about it). Maybe I should try some of the no-tech stuff.

 

[tauKhan]

Bravo_10 You should also check different port priority orders and see how much that affects the escape%

 

[Bravo_10]

Bravo_10 You should also check different port priority orders and see how much that affects the escape%

I did all of my testing with Sheik in port 1 and Link in a lower port than Sheik. Really, you should always make sure to snag a lower port than your opponent if you're fighting Sheik. Gives you one less frame of hitstun on every throw. To me, this is so worthwhile that you may as well RPS someone for it if they insist on getting port 4.

 

[tauKhan]

Bravo_10 Agreed, I've been rps:ing for port 4 for over a year now and I play fox .

 

[Bravo_10]

I was wrong about my Sheik chain throw percents. Edited my post with corrected information (I wasn't using the hitstun display, which actually allows you to see exactly how many frames of hitstun you have remaining).

This is also not technically relevant to the title of the post, but I did a similar array of tests on the Sopo chaingrab to see when we could get out of it. His is potentially more devastating because if Nana's alive, he can just CG you until she shows up and take your stock with a wobble.

Popo CG escape percents:
-> 76% after, 70% before fresh throw (lower port than IC)
-> 88% after, 82% before fresh throw (higher port than IC)
-> Note the relatively huge difference here. Always RPS for a lower port.

Platform tech percents:

Battlefield - 50% after, 44% before

Dreamland - 85% after, 79% before (note that you can actually tech a platform before the CG ends if you have a higher port)

Stadium - 25% after, 19% before

Yoshi's
-> flat part of stage = 8% after, 2% before
-> Popo standing at ledge = 37% after, 31% before

FoD
-> Max plat height = 46% after, 40% before
-> All heights besides Max = 0% before throw

I think these percents are really important to know. If you take a stock and are close enough to the percent where you can tech a platform, consider throwing bombs at your feet until you're over the threshold. I wouldn't do this with Sheik, but considering how the IC chaingrab always results in death if you don't get out somehow, the extra percent may be worth it.

 

[supa*]

BUMP!

Not that I can contribute much to the conversation, but I just want to point out how broken Sheik can be. I lost to a chaingrabbing Sheik yesterday in tournament and although I have no grudge against the guy for trying to get the W, I understand that this is a thing that I will have to combat in the future if I ever want to advance further in-bracket.

Just from my experience yesterday, the ~90-100% regrabs are indeed true. It is particularly brutal to get in against a grab-happy Sheik on a stage like Stadium or FD. The best approach would be to try to stuff out her approach with item game, then try to tech-chase regrab with d-throw and see if the Sheik can adapt.

 

[Hunybear]

TBH chain grabs aren't the worst thing in the world. from 0-20 sheik has to be close to frame perfect to get the re-grab on DI away. after 20% link can get to platforms on YS, FoD, and PS. BF link gets to platforms around the 40%s. that's really only getting chain grabbed for an extra 20%. FD and DL are deadly tho.