Getting KO'S

[G-Sword]

Be careful of information overload when trying to improve at something like this. This thread discusses a lot of different kill options, and knowing how to make use of all of them is of course a good thing, but it's best to learn a few core setups and tricks, get good with them, and then learn your way through the more situational options.

Personally, I've been practicing weak Nair to Up Smash lately, with fox's fall speed it can be pretty easy to land a weak nair, and it true combos into a lethal up smash on some characters in that "kill window" (or some smaller range inside of it). When trying to improve with a character, I look for "flex finishers" like this, a strong two-step combo (not necessarily a true combo, just a good follow up), which can finish a stock. Instead of fishing for an up smash, I just try to land a sour Nair, knowing that I can dash into an upsmash if it lands. Having one or two moves like this in your tool belt will give you a lot more confidence during the critical part of a game.

Nair to Upsmash isn't necessarily fox's "best" finisher, I just like it because of how it fits into my play style. Play around with a few of the options discussed in this thread and pick out one or two things you think you could learn to do reliably, then practice them to death. I suggest learning one "aggressive" and one "passive" kill option, so you know how to handle players with different styles during the late game. For example, against an aggressive opponent, I get a lot of kills with Up or Down smash out of shield after shielding a smash or an aerial with extra landing lag. Against a more passive/campy opponent I will look for a chance to land a Nair into upsmash.

U should learn as many kill options as u can. It just makes it harder for people to read u and predict what u are going to do and punish the crap out of you. Also gives u more freedom to not rely on one thing for kills.

 

[YGK]

U should learn as many kill options as u can. It just makes it harder for people to read u and predict what u are going to do and punish the crap out of you. Also gives u more freedom to not rely on one thing for kills.

The point isn't to limit the ways you kill the opponent, it's to master a few good options you can rely on while you continue to learn. Ideally, everyone would know every possible setup, follow up, and combo in every matchup, but in reality we only have so much time to practice, and some techniques are more useful than others. If someone only gets to practice a few hours a week, they are better off concentrating on a few good kill moves rather than spending a few minutes on every setup in this thread.

As for being predictable, I never suggested that people should give up on other kill options or just spam one attack until it hits. We all have to use common sense while playing. When I have an opponent at kill percents, I don't just spam Nair then up smash and hope it connects; I look for an opening, and if I see a chance to land a weak Nair, I know exactly what I need to do to convert that into a lethal Upsmash. Mastering a move doesn't mean you have to rely on it exclusively, but if you are really good with it, and you know it will work, go ahead and use it. If you've actually mastered the move, and it's a genuinely good tactic, knowing you like to use it won't help your opponent at all. Knowing that Ken will probably try to kill you with a Ken Combo doesn't give you an advantage over him.

I can see how my previous post might seem a little narrow. The advice I give is based on the assumption that people reading this thread already have the basics figured out, and are looking for some more advanced tactics they can use. Before practicing any kill setup in this thread you should have a general grasp on Fox's moveset, knowing the hitbox's and knockback properties of each move is far more important than knowing combo's and setups. Once you know those fundamentals, and you want to know a better way to kill than throwing out raw smash attacks, then it's time to develop a handful of finishing moves. If you reach the point where you are truly confident in those techniques, then go ahead and start learning every sequence in this thread, but you will still find those first couple of maneuvers a vital part of your game.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

The best thing is still Shielding > Buffer Dash Jump Canceled Upsmash. With the small amount of shield stun that you experience from a move hitting your shield, this is the best way for you to land your upsmash if youre having trouble doing so. Even better if you don't even have to move in order to get a Jump Cancel'd Upsmash Out of Shield

Is there a difference between using c-stick to usmash instead of jump cancelling?

 

[YGK]

Is there a difference between using c-stick to usmash instead of jump cancelling?

I may be wrong, but I believe a jump canceled smash will slide somewhat farther than just flicking up on the C stick while running. If the difference does exist, it's relatively small, at least for fox.

 

[EndlessRain]

JC usmash out of dash goes further than usmash out of dash. Standing still, there is no difference.
HOWEVER. You can jump out of jab2 faster than you can attack out of it, which means a JC usmash is faster out of jab than a regular usmash.

 

[YGK]

You can jump out of jab2 faster than you can attack out of it, which means a JC usmash is faster out of jab than a regular usmash.

Wow. Thanks for pointing that out. At first I didn't 100% believe this was true, and was going to ask you for documentation, but then I realized why this is true; Here's an explanation for those who, like myself, didn't get it right away:

During Fox's double jab combo (see this great video guide by the YouTube channel "My Smash Corner" if you aren't already familiar with it), Fox passes through a state after each jab where he can act, but certain inputs will just cause him to throw out the next jab. Basically, if you try to grab, tilt, or smash too soon after jab 1 or 2, the game will treat it like you just tapped A again. Other inputs, like shield, dash, roll, or jump will mostly work normally. Without jump canceling, double jab to up smash looks like this Jab1 -> Jab2 -> Wait X frames -> Up Smash; with jump canceling it becomes Jab1 -> Jab2 -> Jump -> Cancel into Up Smash. I don't know exactly how many frames you normally have to wait, but it's more than 1 so the jump cancel is definitely faster, and it's actually "easier" to input since knowing exactly when those X frames have passed can be quite difficult

I'll try to do some testing and find out how much faster this makes the Up Smash, it may actually result in fox having more guaranteed kills off of jab than I thought. The guide by "My Smash Corner" points out a few, but he never mentions jump canceling, and the frame advantage may be pretty substantial.

EDIT: After some initial testing, this isn't quite as easy an input as I had hoped, I believe it is still strictly better than just waiting for the upsmash, but you can't just buffer the inputs during a jab, so it doesn't make the input much easier.

 

[EndlessRain]

I don't know about additional characters, but he says "Must be fast though" after most of the ones it works on. With a jump-cancelled usmash, you don't have to be that fast because you can buffer it during the jab so it comes out ASAP. No need to be afraid of Ness nairing you if you're too slow, for example.
Just make sure you input the jump slightly before the usmash, and not the other way around (this is easy enough if you use a face button to jump, rather than a shoulder button like me).

 

[YGK]

Well, initial excitement has died down a bit. My testing is limited to the tools available in 3ds training mode (I don't have a capture card, so I can't get exact frame data), but here's what I've found:

The input buffer seems to be a little more clever than I would expect. As far as I can tell, if you buffer a jump while a jab is out, then input an attack before the jab is finished, the game will discard the jump entirely and put out the next jab. This means you cannot buffer the entire jump canceled up smash while the jab is out. This doesn't mean the technique is invalid, only that the inputs are not as simple as they could be. You can buffer the jump as soon as the jab begins to retract, then cancel the jump animation into an up smash as soon as it begins. This sounds a lot more difficult than I've actually found it to be, so I think there's more to the situation, IIRC smash 4 has an 11 frame input buffer, so maybe you just need to have a few frames separating the jump and up smash inputs to prevent the game from discarding the jump.

Again, this is just what my testing suggests to me, I'm eager to be proven wrong. Without any way to actually see the contents of the input buffer it's impossible to know for sure if my inputs are being buffered, or if my timing is off because I'm playing in training mode at 1/4 speed. When I switch to full speed, I seems like buffering the jump and up smash right after each other works, but it's very difficult to tell. Maybe someone else with more experience testing stuff like this will be able to shed some light on the subject.
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EDIT: The technical analysis in this post is based on some incorrect assumptions I made. I was trying to evaluate the behavior of the input buffer while playing at 1/4 speed in training mode, but the input buffer does not scale correctly at reduced gameplay speed. When playing at 1/4 speed, you have the same amount of time to buffer inputs before an animation ends, not the same number of frames. I expected slowing the game down by a factor of 4 would also increase the size of the input buffer by a factor of 4, but it doesn't. The jump inputs I believed were being discarded by the game engine were actually just being input too early, so I was just buffering an up smash, not a jump canceled up smash, which the game then converted into a jab.

 

[Legato]

I believe mysmashcorner dissolved the myth about the increased speed from a JC usmash. I recall Shofu stating something that it was faster, and then mysmashcorner stated that he did a frame by frame analysis and found no difference. It would be nice if he posted a video of it though

He's pretty darn trustworthy though imo. If anything, it might aid some of us by making the timing more consistent, which would be a win anyways. So no need to change it if you already do it and it works.

 

[YGK]

I believe mysmashcorner dissolved the myth about the increased speed from a JC usmash. I recall Shofu stating something that it was faster, and then mysmashcorner stated that he did a frame by frame analysis and found no difference. It would be nice if he posted a video of it though

He's pretty darn trustworthy though imo. If anything, it might aid some of us by making the timing more consistent, which would be a win anyways. So no need to change it if you already do it and it works.

Yep, I looked through the top comments on the video guide and found that discussion. It seems an up smash and a jump canceled up smash both come out on the same frame. Shofu and "Larry" (I assume Larry Lurr a.k.a. DEHF, a prominent fox player), seem to think the inputs are a bit easier, which is in tune with my own findings. (my previous findings while playing at 1/4 speed are invalid, slowing the game down causes the input buffer to behave differently. Playing at full speed I'm 90% sure you can just buffer a jump canceled up smash, but you must do so within the last 11 frames of the jab, otherwise the jump input will "time out"). Buffered inputs will be automatically executed on the earliest possible frame, so both a normal up smash and a jump canceled one can come out on the same frame, but a jump canceled up smash can be buffered, while a buffered normal smash will be interpreted as a jab.

I think that's about all there is to be said on the subject of Jab -> Jab -> Up Smash. I for one will stick to the jump canceled input, but as long as your timing is correct, both versions work the same.

 

[EndlessRain]

I guess my timing was just off then. I was consistently getting the regular usmash 2-3 frames later than the JC one, but it seems it was just because I was late with the input.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

How exactly do you buffer a jump cancelled upsmash out of shield? Just shield > up + jump + A?

 

[YGK]

Either "Jump -> Up+A" or "Up + (Jump -> A)" (holding Up for both button presses) will work.
Because the jump animation can only be canceled by a few actions (Up Smash, Up B, Grab, and throwing an item), the inputs are unusually flexible, you can input an up tilt and the game will turn it into a smash for you.

The tricky part is getting the attack input soon enough after the jump. I find it helpful to quickly slide my thumb across the two buttons, rather than treating the inputs as two separate actions. You can also use the C stick, this can be awkward on a GameCube controller, but very easy on a gamepad or pro controller.

I like to use inputs that are hard to mess up, so I usually just hold the joystick up then slide from Y to A (X to A would probably be even easier, but I bind grab to X). The only problem with this method is that you end up angling you shield upwards briefly, which could cause you to be shield poked by a low hitbox. I can't think of any moves that may hit you that can also be hit by up smash out of shield, but there's probably a few, so if you are precise enough, it is technically better to hold the joystick input until after the jump animation begins.

 

[EndlessRain]

I use L to jump, and let me tell you, that makes it very easy. So easy, in fact, that I accidentally JC usmash any time I try to SH uair. But such is the price I pay...
(All you have to do is learn to wait until you have left the ground, this method does not actually render you incapable of uairs).

 

[anas abou]

on stage you read bait then punish whiffs accordingly preferably with a running up smash as it is you're safest most reliable kill move also make sure you're facing the opponenet as the forward hit is more powerful than the back hit so take thought into how much you'll slide before the move comes out

off stage you throw out nairs when facing the stage and back airs when not then hope for a techless stage spike (Stage spikes are usually not too safe with Fox so you should always keep your second jump)

 

[PepaCorn]

..........

 

[GiMiX]

I've found him to have very reliable kill setups. Some I use often in order of difficulty are:

1. Dair - Up Smash
2. Nair - Up Smash
3. Double Jab - Up Smash (Or Fire Fox Up for extra swag at like 150. At lower percents it does like 30%)
4. Forward Throw - Up Smash (Missed tech or Tech Chase)
5. Throw off the edge - Bair wall spike
6. Up Tilt - Up Air
7. Pivot Forward Tilt - Up Smash (You can get another pivot forward tilt in between if you have space)
8. Down tilt - Up Air (I find this one difficult)
9. Shine Spike (jk)

 

[EndlessRain]

You can do pivot ftilt->utilt and pivot ftilt->jab to get the kill setups from those as well. Pivot ftilt is awesome.

 

[GiMiX]

I also just remembered, that around 90% you can just use normal ftilt (preferably out of shield) and follow up with up smash if they miss a tech.
Kinda useful when you just need a little more damage on them before the up smash can kill.

 

[Legato]

Can't wait for customs when we can punish with twisting fox oos. That will make approaching our shield so intimidating. I think it kills earlier usmash, but I am not 100% certain on that.

 

[EndlessRain]

I also just remembered, that around 90% you can just use normal ftilt (preferably out of shield) and follow up with up smash if they miss a tech.
Kinda useful when you just need a little more damage on them before the up smash can kill.

This is character-dependant, doesn't work on everyone. But yeah handy to know.

 

[Deleted member]

3 setups I would recommend are
1-F-tilt (especially pivoted, I find) into Up-Smash, which is almost guaranteed on missed tech, provided you follow the opponent's DI (which Fox is fast enough to cover all of)
2-Jab2 to Down-Smash. It worked alot better before 1.0.6, which kind of upsets me, but it's still guarenteed if you snatch a double jump
3-Ledge Trump to Down-Smash. I wouldn't go for it a whole lot, with how much the ledge meta has evolved, but if you get a free punish on a vulnerable ledge grab, go for a Down-smash. One mixup that works decently well (at least, as much as I've used it) is to short-hop laser to entice a low recovery and then Perfect Pivot Down-Smash

I've also landed fast-fall Nairs after a footstool, so if you're keen on jab locks, that's a free up-smash.

(I think my writing quality just falls apart on Smashboards...)

 

[GiMiX]

@Superkidra does Fox have any foot stool setups?
Just Guessing I'd say Auto Cancelled Dair and Utilt at certain percentages could potentially set this up.

 

[Deleted member]

@Superkidra does Fox have any foot stool setups?
Just Guessing I'd say Auto Cancelled Dair and Utilt at certain percentages could potentially set this up.

I'm quite rusty at Smash 4, so I decided to test a few things out.
The only two moves I found to work well at kill percent (around 70-75% on mid-weights before attack and jab-lock damage) here and in practice (on real opponents) were U-tilt and Dair. Up-tilt needs a read on DI to get the footstool soon enough for them to hit the ground (I have rarely gotten a footstool from this, since a fast aerial can stop you with good DI, but otherwise, it's not bad). D-air needs to cancel out on the second or third hit for the best results, those being to run up and footstool them right before they can act (I get the feeling 2-3 frame aerials can stop it, but I'm not sure) and fast-fall into a soft nair. Anywhere between the first hit and the last (7th) hit of dair should work, but I find the third and especially second hit to work well.

Those are the best setup I have for now, and hopefully my rusty Smash pipes still work after being covered in school-work for months. My advice for getting a footstool in if you really need one and can't get these is to read a defensive aerial option like counter or airdodge and use your fast falling speed to guarantee the footstool from high enough up.

My sincere apologies if these setups are too difficult to use or are too situational

 

[GiMiX]

I can definitely see u-tilt being difficult to chain a foot stool... I'm thinking front facing u-tilt would be easier. As for Dair I think using a full hop and landing the last hit is best for this setup as there is 0 delay after and pops them up at a relatively fixed height (Based on the death combo @RPK posted utilizing the fAir spike instead).