Get the facts about Mewtwos hurtbox/disjoints here

Browny

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#1
I'm upset I have to do this again after doing it in smash 4. Literally the exact same thing, countless people complaining about Mewtwos hurtbox, blowing it completely out of proportion while not verifying anything.

Mewtwos disjoint is worse than it was in Smash 4. This is not debatable. What is certainly being misconstrued all over this place, twitter and discord is how much worse it is. I'm quite sick of reading people say how his 'tail is now a hurtbox' which implies that it wasn't in smash 4, or that it is far worse.

So first up, here is a reminder of the disjoint of mewtwos tail in smash 4.

1549967849989.png


So, its fair to say 50% of the tail was disjointed. I'm getting the feeling that way too many people think his entire tail was disjointed in 4. No, that's not the case, its half.

In Ultimate, its this
1549967945640.png


So, maybe 1/3 is disjointed. Not that much worse. By the grids there, we would say 5 units. For some relativity here, Lucinas sword in ultimate has a disjoint of roughly 10 units. Mewtwos disjoint is 6. In smash 4, it was slightly larger than lucinas sword, so it was most likely 11 units. I want people to remember those numbers;

Mewtwo used to be 11, Lucina used to be 10.
Mewtwo is now 6, Lucina is 10.
Most non-sword characters have disjoints of 1-3 units on their attacks.

So yes, it did get quite a nerf relative to large sword users, but at 6 units, it still absolutely qualifies as a sword. Toon link and young links swords are 6 units too, so Mewtwos disjoint is the same.

The next thing to talk about, is what tricked so many people in 4 though, is how often mewtwos tail was actually hittable while in the z-axis. Here were some good examples I took in smash 4. During Mewtwos dash animation, his tail was not in the z-axis at all so it would appear it had total disjoint. Also with his ftilt, because it swung across the z axis, where it might look like it was 'intangible' it actually wasnt even in the same plane. The point of contact with marths fsmash was not the beginning of the hurtbox, it was simply where the hurtbox first entered the z axis. Same with his dashing animation where his tail is completely intangible, outside of the playing area.

1549968195250.png

1549968208995.png


So since metwos dtilt and ftilt sweep across the plane, they are not able to be hit even if it clearly looks like it should. This is the exact same case in this game.

1549968426248.png


Observe the 7th, and last active hurtbox frame of Ultimate mewtwos dtilt
1549968490578.png

During this frame, his entire tail is within the z plane, therefore able to be hit. But on the very next frame, this happens
1549968532180.png

This is the 8th frame. Here, mewtwos tail has swept out of the z plane and is now, for all intents and purposes, intangible. It can not be hit. It certainly looks like he has a massive disjoint, but he doesn't.

The same applies to shadow ball charge
1549969470562.png


What we take away from this is that Mewtwos decreased tail disjoint does NOT affect him in neutral, during dashing animations or in the before/after active hitbox frames during attacks which involve a sweep across the z plane. If he was reverted back to the smash 4 disjoint, there would be NO CHANGE to how much of Mewtwos hurtbox is tangible during those moments. I'll point out that during mewtwos dash, his tail does briefly enter the z axis, but it actually only begins after a few character lengths. That's not going to affect anything in a normal match. Also during the initial dash or a turnaround, it enters the z axis but this was the case in smash 4 as well.

So yes, Mewtwo's disjoint is obviously worse in this game, however it is hopelessly blown out of proportion by those who act like it was a gigantic change. At 6 units long, it absolutely qualifies as a sword.

I don't want to see any more posts by people complaining about that his 'tail is a hurtbox now, it used to be a sword' without the following images embedded into their memory
1549970427289.png

1549970483267.png


Its really not that much worse when you compare them side-by-side. You all just remember the z-axis shenanigans you got away with in 4, while comparing them to the in-plane interactions you have in ultimate. If you were only doing fair comparisons, you'd see its not that much worse.
 

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Downshift

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#2
In Ultimate, its this
View attachment 191765

So, maybe 1/3 is disjointed. Not that much worse. By the grids there, we would say 5 units. For some relativity here, Lucinas sword in ultimate has a disjoint of roughly 10 units. Mewtwos disjoint is 6. In smash 4, it was slightly larger than lucinas sword, so it was most likely 11 units. I want people to remember those numbers;

Mewtwo used to be 11, Lucina used to be 10.
Mewtwo is now 6, Lucina is 10.
Most non-sword characters have disjoints of 1-3 units on their attacks.

So yes, it did get quite a nerf relative to large sword users, but at 6 units, it still absolutely qualifies as a sword. Toon link and young links swords are 6 units too, so Mewtwos disjoint is the same.
What is this image from?
Is this his respawn invincibility highlighting his hurtbox with the "Show Invincibility" setting on in Training Mode? If so, I might try this to see what his hurtbox looks like during moves like Bair and Uair.
 

Browny

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#3
What is this image from?
Is this his respawn invincibility highlighting his hurtbox with the "Show Invincibility" setting on in Training Mode? If so, I might try this to see what his hurtbox looks like during moves like Bair and Uair.
Yeah it is. I verified its correct by matching it with usual hurtbox testing.
 
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#5
I mean....this is still a pretty large amount of difference. Any word on what's going on when it's jumping? Midair is when I get clipped on the tail the most, and I really doubt that it's placebo.
 

Rhus

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#6
This is super helpful, thank you!

My biggest gripe right now is mostly with Uair, Bair, and just jumping. His jumping extends his tail below him and it is incredibly frustrating to get clipped by something far below you.
 
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#7
Yes,
This is super helpful, thank you!

My biggest gripe right now is mostly with Uair, Bair, and just jumping. His jumping extends his tail below him and it is incredibly frustrating to get clipped by something far below you.
Exactly that. I would also love to know what's happening when I hop over projectiles and still get bopped even when my body looks to be at least half a character height away. I don't think I'm crazy....
 

Browny

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#8
Here's a fun test for anyone who is convinced that his hurtbox change is a massive nerf and doesn't believe me when I say they are suffering hard placebo. Go and watch any smash 4 match with mewtwo, then watch a smash ult match. Compare the two and count how many times in the ultimate match, Mewtwos tail was hit by an attack which would not have hit him in smash 4.

I randomly decided to watch Abadango vs Ally grand finals game 3 from Pound 2016, and SDX vs abadango game 5 from Genesis 6.

I counted a grand total of, wait for it, 0 times where SDX was hit on his tail where the smash 4 disjoint would have saved him and same in reverse, 0 times where if Abadangos m2 in smash 4 had ults disjoint, he would have been hit. The conclusion being, the nerf had exactly 0 impact on Mewtwo's viability.
 
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#9
Here's a fun test for anyone who is convinced that his hurtbox change is a massive nerf and doesn't believe me when I say they are suffering hard placebo. Go and watch any smash 4 match with mewtwo, then watch a smash ult match. Compare the two and count how many times in the ultimate match, Mewtwos tail was hit by an attack which would not have hit him in smash 4.

I randomly decided to watch Abadango vs Ally grand finals game 3 from Pound 2016, and SDX vs abadango game 5 from Genesis 6.

I counted a grand total of, wait for it, 0 times where SDX was hit on his tail where the smash 4 disjoint would have saved him and same in reverse, 0 times where if Abadangos m2 in smash 4 had ults disjoint, he would have been hit. The conclusion being, the nerf had exactly 0 impact on Mewtwo's viability.
I mean, your first post showed a drastic difference in size. 30-40% worse hurtboxes are objectively a significant nerf. But alright. I think I'm hopping out.of this thread for now. I appreciate the work you did, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
 

Browny

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#10
I mean, your first post showed a drastic difference in size. 30-40% worse hurtboxes are objectively a significant nerf. But alright. I think I'm hopping out.of this thread for now. I appreciate the work you did, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
Its a nerf, but people blow it out of proportion acting like its the end of the world and that they are dropping him because of it. Its not 30-40% worse hitboxes in general, its worse hitboxes on his tail... only when hes attacking

Imagine if Pichu got his weight reduced from 62 down to say... 52. A gigantic nerf to be sure, but would it nuke his viability? Most probably not. Or if Lucinas arm hurtbox extended halfway up her sword. She has countless other strengths to make up for it and if she got clipped 1-2 times in a match where she previously wouldn't have, that doesn't drag her from top tier down to mid. M2s tail nerf is completely overblown, if a nerf like what Falcon received with his sideb no longer killing is a 10 on the nerf scale, m2s tail hurtbox is like a 3 at best.

A MUCH bigger nerf to mewtwo was the dtilt tipper hitbox having no combo potential, and nair being extremely unreliable. Those 2 moves were incredible in 4 and nerfs to those affect him much worse.
 
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Downshift

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#11
I randomly decided to watch Abadango vs Ally grand finals game 3 from Pound 2016, and SDX vs abadango game 5 from Genesis 6.

I counted a grand total of, wait for it, 0 times where SDX was hit on his tail where the smash 4 disjoint would have saved him and same in reverse, 0 times where if Abadangos m2 in smash 4 had ults disjoint, he would have been hit. The conclusion being, the nerf had exactly 0 impact on Mewtwo's viability.
How did you determine this? Did you use some type of program or tool to analyze the video?

I counted a grand total of, wait for it, 0 times where SDX was hit on his tail where the smash 4 disjoint would have saved him and same in reverse, 0 times where if Abadangos m2 in smash 4 had ults disjoint, he would have been hit. The conclusion being, the nerf had exactly 0 impact on Mewtwo's viability.
How did you determine this? Did you use some type of program to tool to analyze the video?
 

Browny

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#12
You just watch the match carefully and pay attention to every single hit, theres not really that many per match, maybe 30. There was not a single trade in the smash 4 match I watched, but there were a few instances of mario using sh bair to approach but getting clipped my m2s dtilt, purely because the bair was too high and the tail swept underneath him. In the ultimate set again, there were no trades. Every hit that SDX took, he was facing the opponent.
 

krinklez

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#13
I mean, your first post showed a drastic difference in size. 30-40% worse hurtboxes are objectively a significant nerf. But alright. I think I'm hopping out.of this thread for now. I appreciate the work you did, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
100% agree with this. The entire first analysis is helpful but to say that that increase in the hurtbox is not significant is ridiculous.

I've been hit by jab while standing behind the opponent because part of my tail was barely poking into their body. Interactions like that feel horribly wrong.
 

Browny

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#16
100% agree with this. The entire first analysis is helpful but to say that that increase in the hurtbox is not significant is ridiculous.

I've been hit by jab while standing behind the opponent because part of my tail was barely poking into their body. Interactions like that feel horribly wrong.
I expanded upon my thoughts more in the competitive discussion forum. Firstly though, some attacks do legitimately hit behind people. Incineroars ftilt is one I know for sure, so you getting clipped by a move from behind might not have been Mewtwo specific. I just know if Mewtwo players rolled behind an incineroar and got ftilted they'd be complaining all over twitter about his tail being a hurtbox despite the fact it hits literally everyone.

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1) His tail disjoint nerf is SIGNIFICANTLY blown out of proportion. It is a nerf to be sure, but this affects his attacks in various way and its not all bad. With his dtilt and ftilt, his tail is only in the z-plane during the active hitbox frames meaning that at no time is hit hurtbox actually extended, without a hitbox attacked to it. This is a really big deal because in ground-vs-ground interactions, this means that the disjoint makes absolutely no difference whatsoever where attacks clank instead of trading and no one is using ftilt or dtilt as an anti air

When it comes to his utilt, uair and bair this is where the disjoint matters. There's no argument, he will lose trades here where he used to win but this is only assuming a fairly tight spacing window. Mewtwos tail disjoint used to be a fraction longer than lucinas sword, now its about the same as toon links sword. So he will lose trades vs sword users more often but vs non sword users, hes still got a decent disjoint advantage.

In all other times, his tail is usually out of the z-plane and can't be hit. During tumble and during the first few frames of his jump animation for some reason, his tail is indeed hittable. However when hes knocked away from the enemy, hes almost always facing towards them so his tail being hittable is irrelevant, it makes no difference. If he is being juggled vertically and in tumble his tail enters the z plane but theres another issue... he basically contorts into some weird kind of ball when in tumble. Given that he is a large bodied character, his overall hurtbox size doesn't really increase at all since he bunches himself up. If his tail was 100% disjointed, it might actually make no difference whatsoever as to whether or not he is hit while in hitstun.

And the kicker... is all of these facts were the same in smash 4, where originally everyone complained about his tail being a hurtbox before learning that it wasn't, and suddenly overnight they started ranting and raving about how good of a sword it was. Their perceptions of reality completely switched, proving they were placebo'd hard. Eventually no one complained about his tail being a hurtbox because guess what, it rarely actually mattered. The only time the disjointed tail actually matters is in bair/uair/utilt trading interactions where he lost his lucina-tier range for toon link range. That's it. There's nothing more. Its a nerf for sure, but its nothing more than that. Completely blown out of proportion.

1551366101597.png


That laser went straight through the tail because it wasn't in the z-plane. And his tail exists there most of the time. That also highlights what I was talking about with him curling into a ball. Look at that, hes not even as tall as falco there.

---

Basically, the times where his tail having a hurtbox is actually an issue, only really applies to 3 attacks. Its certainly possible that you could take an opponents stock without needing to land a single one of those attacks. On the times where you do need to use them, you're only suffering a small decrease in disjoint.
 
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Gileril

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#17
The main critique I would give is that you come across as extremely dismissive of conflicting views from the get go, and it's obvious from replies that a lot of possible discussion isn't happening because they don't see you as receptive to it, and so aren't interested in pursuing it. The data is nice, but to really analyze it in a scientific fashion you should be trying to defeat your hypothesis.

For example, one of your main points is the time the tail hitbox spends in the z-plane. In such a case, it immediately seems logical to me to consider attacks that linger and don't need to precisely hit those frames. How much does it matter in those cases? What are the specific attacks that pose the most possible threat to the new hitbox and in what circumstances? How prevalent are the characters that can most often exploit it?

30-40% is incredibly statistically significant for just about everything in video games, and you aren't going to convince anyone that it is a small amount. Because of this, it's probably better argumentative structure to -> a) concede that it is a significant size change, but assert that it isn't always relevant because of your better argument that b) the tail spends a lot of time out of the z-plane. From there, you try to dismantle that assertion, and if you fail to do so in a convincing fashion, that is your evidence.

At the moment the argument isn't convincing enough, so people are sticking with the reality that it feels bad to them, and outright walking away from discussion with the condescending notion that their experiences are some kind of placebo effect.
 
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#18
iirc the tail hutbox extends SLIGHTLY after an action involving the tail, so thats why standing m2 and dashing m2 dont have hurtboxes stuk on them as big as the ones for dtilt or ftilt for example
 

Browny

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#19
notion that their experiences are some kind of placebo effect.
And in that case, I would challenge anyone to do what I did with my SDX vs Abadango analysis.

Play some matches as Mewtwo and watch the replays. Go through them carefully and count the amount of times the increased hurtbox actually makes a difference. Link me literally any Mewtwo match and I'll go through it, then recreate the same scenario in smash 4 (obviously dont use characters not in that game) and I can prove how little difference it made.

Trades aren't exactly common in matches and remember, the only time a trade will happen is utilt/uair/bair since youll never be using ftilt or dtilt as an anti-air. So if you went a match without trading with utilt/uair/bair, or getting clipped while doing utilt/uair/bair, then the disjoint had exactly 0 effect on the outcome of the match. And in the rare chance that you actually did, there's also a high chance the exact same trade would have happened in smash 4.

And there is countless examples of people being placebod hard in smash. As I said in the beginning, I had to do all of this in smash 4 where people were utterly, 100% convinced that his entire tail was a hurtbox. No matter what evidence I gave them, they 'felt' it was a hurtbox.
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127/
In brawl, for almost the entire games lifespan people 'felt' like Lucarios fsmash got more range with max aura and commentators got this wrong forever.

Or how about the absolute best, the amount of people who believed they discovered the secrets to SDI'ing out of witch twist in smash 4. All the pros were racing to put up youtube videos talking about their methods to escape witch twist and how it works for them. Then it turned out they were all wrong, it was entirely the Bayo player messing up whether they reversed it or not. I'd say 100% of the smash community was placebod into believing they SDId to escape.

I'm not saying someone's experience with getting hit on his tail is a placebo. I'm saying the believe that in smash 4 it wouldn't have hit, is placebo. Almost every single time someone shows me an example of the tail getting hit, its a hitbox clearly hitting his body or the base of the tail. The only exceptions are that rest/KO punch clip that get posted a bunch which are both about the exception I mentioned, a very rare occurence. You could go an entire tournament and never get hit there once.
 
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