Ganondorf's new Nair into Grab combo

[MGK]

So I've been reading on the Ganondorf threads and some people are confused about the new Nair and how the old one use to lead into a grab quite well at low %. I've been in the lab for a bit and have learnt the first hit of Nair and it's properties to a extent.

These tests were done on a Mario in training mode, so % will change due to weight / fall speed / DI.

Hit Boxes

Nair 1

Thigh

- 12% Sweet Spot
- 10% sour Spot
- Has more of a 45 degree KB. (Sorry, don't know Smash angles. )
- leads into a grab between 0 - 30%
- This hit box will always show up as a combo into the second hit of Nair.

Strongest hit out of all the Nair hit boxes, pretty good at linking into the second hit of Nair. Links at up to roughly 60%.

- Kills at 132% on Battlefield's starting position.

Calf

- 12% Sweet Spot
- 10% sour spot
- Has more of a Vertical KB.
- leads into a grab between 20 - 60%
- Can lead into grab between 10 - 19% but the opponent hits the ground and can react fast enough to punish or avoid.
- Anything less then 10%, the opponent doesn't really leave the ground and can punish every time.
- This hit box will always show up as a combo into the second hit of Nair.

Best Hit box as it links the best into second hit. Links at up to roughly 110%.

- Kills at 184% on Battlefield's starting position. (Ceiling Death)

Foot

- 8% Sweet spot
- 5% sour spot
- Has more of a Horizontal KB.
- This will never lead into a grab as the opponent goes too far forward but Dash Attack seems very effective between 0 - 32% because you get the weak of dash attack that leads into a grab.
- Weird enough, if your opponent gets hit by this hit box, they can air dodge the second hit of Nair (Seems random, but I think it's mainly cos of the sour spot or DI).

Really weird hit box, I really don't understand it but it connect into second hit sometimes up to 32%.

- Kills at 233% on Battlefield's starting position.

Nair 2

- 1 hit box that has a sweet and sour spot.

- 10% sweet spot
- 7% sour spot

- Can trip randomly at 0 - 10% (Sweet or sour spot)

- Opponent slides between 0 - 3% with sweet spot. (Grab is possible but side B or sour spot DA is better)
- Opponent slides between 0 - 10% with sour spot. (Grab is possible but side B or sour spot DA is better)

NEW TIP ' N ' SLIDE !!!! Sort of ...

Since the second hit of Nair forces the opponent into a sliding animation at low % (Opponent slides the length of battlefields platform at 0%), this creates a situation where you can tech chase / jab lock or whatever you . HAVE FUN AND TEST FOR YOURSELVES!

Option I have found from this, SH Nair 2 (hit with foot) > Wizard Foot ledge cancel > Side B SD

- Opponent get launch a little bit into the air and then into a sliding state between 4 - 22% with sweet spot. (Too far for grab but side B or sour spot DA is possible)
- Opponent get launch a little bit into the air and then into a sliding state between 11 - 36% with sour spot. (Too far for grab but side B or sour spot DA is possible)

- Tech chase opportunity between 23 - 36% with Sweet spot (Miss tech leads into sour spot DA)
- Tech chase opportunity between 37 - 60% with sour spot (Miss tech leads into sour spot DA)

- Kills at 124% on Battlefield's starting position with sweet spot.
- Kills at 172% on Battlefield's starting position with sour spot.
So this is what I've learnt and hopefully it can help all us Ganondorf mains out there.

Also, if you Fastfall it to intentionally hit with the late hit (basically falling on top of them), it seems that it's much more lenient about getting the right hitbox.

Great way to learn the spacing, where the hit boxes are and how they act. Credit to Blobface

 

[ItzzJak]

wow, nice discovery!

 

[ItzzJak]

just play sheik

 

[Theosmeo]

just play sheik

https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video/CQKkIJtUkAAFbEY.mp4

 

[MagiusNecros]

just play sheik

Or everyone on this board can play Ganon and have a great time.

: Ganon has a whole lot of Beef! Something that bouncing twig Sheik will never have! Why play with a tedious no fun Ninja thing when you can be BEEFY like Ganon and ME! And not only do we have BEEF we hit like a ton of it too!

 

[Theosmeo]

Or everyone on this board can play Ganon and have a great time.

It´s true, personally I prefer dieing to smash attacks after 100%, not after 60%.

Also shiek can only kill people through gimps :/

 

[Theosmeo]

Not to diminish the amazing data MGK has amassed in like, 50 hours, this is extremely useful, thanks!

 

[Vermanubis]

just play sheik

If you wanna stick around here for long, I'd suggest thinking twice before posting these sorts of things.

Thanks for the research, MGK !

 

[MagiusNecros]

Will be putting this data to use soon. If we can get grab setups on our T-rex grab then I'm all for it.

 

[Theosmeo]

Would FCnair> grab> dthrow> 1st hit nair (fastfall second hit below)> grab> dthrow> Nair, work?

 

[MGK]

Would FCnair> grab> dthrow> 1st hit nair (fastfall second hit below)> grab> dthrow> Nair, work?

The Nair into grab would work if you get the thigh hit box at 0% on most characters. With dThrow into first hit Nair, you have to get the Calf hit box to have a chance of getting another grab follow up, this could work as a mix up but your opponent will most likely do a fast Nair or jump out.

What I find that works better is to do the dThrow into a short hop Nair and let the lingering hit box of the second kick to tap your opponent if they air dodge, this will create a situation where you can get a grab or dash attack off of it. This is more effective has the first hit of Nair will hit your opponent if they try to jump or attack (If no DI and other factors). So this can cover all 3 options and get 30% + most times.

Just another option to think about though, thank you Theosmeo .

 

[Gold_TSG]

I've been playing around with the new Nair for a little while now, and I'm having a hard time finding exactly which hitboxes are the most consistent. Is it just less consistent on aerial opponents? Or is there a magical angle you need to hit them from to get the combo?

 

[MGK]

I've been playing around with the new Nair for a little while now, and I'm having a hard time finding exactly which hitboxes are the most consistent. Is it just less consistent on aerial opponents? Or is there a magical angle you need to hit them from to get the combo?

Good Question, when I was testing, I noticed that the Calf hit box on grounded opponents was the hardest to hit consistently but the opposite in the air. So to get the grab from the first hit of Nair with the Calf hit box on grounded opponent can be tricky and sometimes you get the Thigh hit box instead ...... I have a feeling it's a timing thing as well or (I will test this later day) how wide your opponent is as the kicks come in from the side. I'll test this on DK / Bowser and share my results soon.

It is a tricky move to learn and understand but just space the leg the best you can and hope you get the right hit box you wanted.

 

[Blobface]

Also, if you Fastfall it to intentionally hit with the late hit (basically falling on top of them), it seems that it's much more lenient about getting the right hitbox.

 

[MGK]

Also, if you Fastfall it to intentionally hit with the late hit (basically falling on top of them), it seems that it's much more lenient about getting the right hitbox.

Great practicing tool and once you feel you know the spacing, you can throw it out and get the hit box you needed and start getting some amazing combos / mix ups.

 

[Opana]

I'm pretty sure the second hit of Nair can now set up tech chases fairly well. I haven't explored the move much since I've been messing with DK but this seems important imo.

 

[MGK]

I'm pretty sure the second hit of Nair can now set up tech chases fairly well. I haven't explored the move much since I've been messing with DK but this seems important imo.

I'll test this for you Opana.

If there is anything else people want to be tested with the new Nair, I'll try my best to get a result.

 

[Opana]

I just tested it myself, and at mid percents it sends them perfectly horizontal and in a tumble animation. If they miss the tech it should lead into a weak dash attack hit, otherwise yeah tech chase them. I didn't do any super specific testing, just randomly set it to 40 and full hop fast falled nairs second hit on Pikachu, and somewhere in the 50s iirc it does the same to bowser. Imagine Nair2->wizkick cancel->ganoncide tech chases lol.

Also I used this before but ledge hop into fast fall nair covers a huge area but now as an even better gimping tool(if hit with the back hitbox wich isn't too hard usually).

 

[verbatim]

I'll test this for you Opana.

If there is anything else people want to be tested with the new Nair, I'll try my best to get a result.

Nair --> grab --> dthrow --> dash attack --> grab --> dthrow --> uair?

Nair --> grab --> dthrow --> dash attack --> uair?

Nair --> grab dthrow --> nair --> Ganoncide?

Nair TNS off platform --> uair jab reset --> fsmash?

Nair TNS off platform --> dair pop up --> upsmash (true or on an air dodge read)?

Fall off battlefield platform nair TNS off stage --> dair/wizkick spike?



Sh/e Who Dairs Wins.

 

[jmanup85]

If you fast fall this move while you're both in SH distance and it connects, will the second hit activate? If not I can treat it sorta like a Marth nair.

 

[Theosmeo]

If you fast fall this move while you're both in SH distance and it connects, will the second hit activate? If not I can treat it sorta like a Marth nair.

I think so, I feel like I´ve done it before.
It´d be really great if the first hit auto-canceled, you could probably guarantee a dash attack, ftilt or dtilt, maybe even a dsmash or usmash out of it.
That´d make it scary to mess with ganon landing, which would be nice against jugglers.

 

[MGK]

Nair --> grab --> dthrow --> dash attack --> grab --> dthrow --> uair?

Nair --> grab --> dthrow --> dash attack --> uair?

Nair --> grab dthrow --> nair --> Ganoncide?

Nair TNS off platform --> uair jab reset --> fsmash?

Nair TNS off platform --> dair pop up --> upsmash (true or on an air dodge read)?

Fall off battlefield platform nair TNS off stage --> dair/wizkick spike?



Sh/e Who Dairs Wins.

Nair --> grab --> dthrow --> dash attack --> uair? Most likely would work on most of the cast.

Nair --> grab dthrow --> nair --> Ganoncide? Probably not unless they air dodge and you read it.

Nair TNS off platform --> uair jab reset --> fsmash? First thing I found. 100% works.

Nair TNS off platform --> dair pop up --> upsmash (true or on an air dodge read)? Would have to be a frame cancel Dair but most likely you have to get a read for a follow up (Instant Up Smash to get jump and charged to get Air Dodge)

Fall off battlefield platform nair TNS off stage --> dair/wizkick spike? Very hard to get the 2nd hit of Nair when coming from above the opponent. (If that's what you mean?).

A follow up I found is Nair TNS fade back > wizard foot ledge cancel > to Nair / jump Nair or even a ganoncide.

If you fast fall this move while you're both in SH distance and it connects, will the second hit activate? If not I can treat it sorta like a Marth nair.

When I was testing on Mario, you can just get the Nair on him from a SH (Very strict timing) but the 2nd hit of Nair only connects if you FF. This was at low % though. I could test it more if you guys like? Could even create a table on who gets hit by a SH Nair and if you need to FF to connect the 2nd hit of Nair.

 

[jmanup85]

When I was testing on Mario, you can just get the Nair on him from a SH (Very strict timing) but the 2nd hit of Nair only connects if you FF. This was at low % though. I could test it more if you guys like? Could even create a table on who gets hit by a SH Nair and if you need to FF to connect the 2nd hit of Nair.

I'm not gonna force ya, but I also wouldn't mind lol

 

[Opana]

So I have successfully tech chased with nair, read an inward roll at a Delfino walk off after nair2. This is gonna be good lol

 

[MGK]

These are the results I found when It came to the Nair hitting the opponent for every character while standing. Results will change if your opponents are running and maybe walking but the combo % won't change too much. Enjoy!

 

[verbatim]

Man Ganon just keeps getting better, this is awesome.