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Data Ganondorf's Knockdown Data

Discussion in 'Ganondorf' started by Locke Robster, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
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    Sup guys. I wanted to make this guide to show off the percents at which Ganon start to knock down his opponent. As we know, it is important to know the percents that our moves knock down certain opponents, and which moves are safe on CC or not.

    I acquired this data using Training mode and adjusting the percent of the cpu to where the difference between knocking down the opponent and not is a difference of 1%. Doing this, I can get very accurate results.

    Without further adieu, let's start.


    *NEW*: Added Section relating to Ganon getting knocked down by certain characters moves, as well as CC and ASDI down thresholds.

    Note that each move has no stale on it and each move is sweetspotted.

    The threshold percent is the percent that the move will start knocking down the character regardless of how stale it is. hitting with a move above the threshold will always knock them down (if not crouch canceled)

    The percent that Crouch Canceling stops working is also a threshold, meaning if the move hits to at or over that percent, it will knock down your opponent (but remember they can still tech this)

    A note about ASDI down: ASDI down will stop making you immediately land at the same percents that any move start to knock you or your opponent down while standing. ASDI down will still make you hit the ground though, as it techable. So the first percentage you see after a move listed below is also the percent that ASDI will no longer allow you to land immediately.

    Section 1: Ganondorf knocking down Opponent

    Fox
    Jab: - 38% (Threshold is 45%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 100% (93% if Fresh))
    Ftilt: - 22% (Threshold is 35%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 70% (57% if Fresh))
    Dtilt: - 17% (Threshold is 29%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 65% (53% if Fresh))
    Dash Attack: Strong hit - 12% (Threshold is 26%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 65% (51% if Fresh))
    ___________ Weak hit - 69% (Threshold is 79%) <- Crouch Cancel too strong

    F-Smash: - 0% (Threshold is 20%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 40% (18% if Fresh))
    Up-Smash - (Crotch hitbox): 0% (Will always knock down even if fully staled) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 49% (27% if Fresh)) Note that this move hits with a different and stronger hitbox when Fox is standing up as compared to when he is crouch canceled. You cannot hit Fox from behind with Up-smash even if you are touching him.
    Down-Smash: - Will always knock down even if you only hit with the second hit of down-smash even if fully staled. This move will always knock down even if crouch canceled, but only if the first hit connects.

    Side-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 46% (29% if Fresh)
    Down-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 39% (24% if Fresh)
    Up-B (Explosion Release): - 7% (Threshold is 26%)

    Nair: First hit - 17% (Threshold is 29%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 65% (53% if Fresh)) <- exact same as dtilt
    ____ Second Hit - 0% (Threshold is 10%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 46% (34% if Fresh))
    Fair: - Always knocks down even when fully staled (Crouch Canceling stops working at 37% (20% if Fresh)) If CCed, this move will push your opponent far away.
    Up-air: Strong hit - 13% (Threshold is 25%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 60% (48% if Fresh))
    ______Weak hit - Over 100%. Forget about it. This isn't knocking down Fox anytime soon.
    Back-air: - 7% (Threshold is 23%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 50% (34% if Fresh)) If CCed, this move will push your opponent far away.
    Down-air - Always knocks down even when fully staled (When Fox CCs this move, he is it a lot of stun, but doesn't get knocked down until 28% with a fresh dair hitting at 6%)


    Falco

    Jab: - 39% (Threshold is 46%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 103% (96% if Fresh))
    Ftilt: - 23% (Threshold is 36%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 71%) (58% if Fresh)
    Dtilt: - 18% (Threshold is 30%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 67%) (55% if Fresh)
    Dash Attack: Strong hit - 12% (Threshold is 26%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 66% (52% if Fresh))
    ___________ Weak hit - 69% (Threshold is 79%) <- Crouch Cancel too strong

    F-Smash - 0% (Threshold is 15%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 42% (20% if Fresh))
    Up-Smash - (Crotch hitbox): 0% (Will always knock down even if fully staled) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 54% (32% if Fresh)) Note that this move hits with a different and stronger hitbox when Falco is standing up as compared to when he is crouch canceled. You cannot hit Falco from behind with Up-smash even if you are touching him.
    Down-Smash: - Will always knock down even if you only hit with the second hit of down-smash even if fully staled. This move will always knock down even if crouch canceled, but only if the first hit connects.

    Side-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 47% (30% if Fresh)
    Down-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 40% (25% if Fresh)
    Up-B (Explosion Release): - 7% (Threshold is 26%)

    Nair: First hit - 18% (Threshold is 30%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 67% (55% if Fresh)) <- exact same as dtilt
    ____ Second Hit - 0% (Threshold is 10%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 48% (36% if Fresh))
    Fair: - Always knocks down even when fully staled (Crouch Canceling stops working at 39% (22% if Fresh)) If CCed, this move will push your opponent far away.
    Up-air: Strong hit - 13% (Threshold is 25%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 60% (47% if Fresh))
    ______Weak hit - Over 100%. Forget about it. This isn't knocking down Falco anytime soon.
    Back-air: - 7% (Threshold is 23%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 52% (36% if Fresh)) If CCed, this move will push your opponent far away.
    Down-air - Always knocks down even when fully staled (When Falco CCs this move, he is it a lot of stun, but doesn't get knocked down until 28% with a fresh dair hitting at 6%)


    Captain Falcon

    Jab: - 45% (Threshold is 52%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 117% (110% if Fresh))
    Ftilt: - 28% (Threshold is 41%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 80%) (67% if Fresh)
    Dtilt: - 22% (Threshold is 34%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 75%) (63% if Fresh)
    Dash Attack: Strong hit - 16% (Threshold is 30%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 75% (61% if Fresh))
    ___________ Weak hit - 80% (Threshold is 90%) <- Crouch Cancel too strong

    F-Smash - 0% (Threshold is 18%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 48% (26% if Fresh))
    Up-Smash - (Crotch hitbox): 0% (Will always knock down even if fully staled) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 57% (38% if Fresh)) Note that this move hits with a different and stronger hitbox when Falcon is standing up as compared to when he is crouch canceled. You cannot hit Falcon from behind with Up-smash even if you are touching him. It is also rather hard to hit him with the crotch hitbox in general. Not a reliable move to counter CC.
    Down-Smash: - Will always knock down even if you only hit with the second hit of down-smash even if fully staled. This move, for some reason, is CC-able even at 999% and you will never hit with the second hit. The only way to hit with the second hit is to be pretty much T-bagging him. The second hit of down-smash CC stops working at 39% (27% if Fresh).

    Side-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 53% (36% if Fresh)
    Down-B: - Stops being Crouch Cancel-able at 46% (31% if Fresh)
    Up-B (Explosion Release): - 7% (Threshold is 26%)

    Nair: First hit - 22% (Threshold is 34%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 75% (63% if Fresh)) <- exact same as dtilt
    ____ Second Hit - 1% (Threshold is 13%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 55% (43% if Fresh))
    Fair: - Always knocks down even when fully staled (Crouch Canceling stops working at 44% (27% if Fresh)) If CCed, this move will push your opponent far away.
    Up-air: Strong hit - 17% (Threshold is 29%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 70% (58% if Fresh))
    ______Weak hit - Over 100%. Forget about it. This isn't knocking down Falcon anytime soon.
    Back-air: - 10% (Threshold is 26%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 59% (43% if Fresh)) If CCed, this move will push your opponent far away.
    Down-air - Always knocks down even when fully staled (When Falcon CCs this move, he is it a lot of stun, but doesn't get knocked down until 32% with a fresh dair hitting at 10%)


    Section 2: Opponent Knocking down Ganondorf


    Fox
    Jab: - 151% (Threshold is 155%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 254% (250% if Fresh))
    Ftilt: - 76% (Threshold is 85%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 139% (130% if Fresh))
    Dtilt: - 23% (Threshold is 33%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 73% (63% if Fresh))
    Utilt - 17% (Threshold is 29%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 59% (47% if fresh))
    Dash Attack: Strong hit - 47% (Threshold is 54%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 127% (120% if Fresh))
    ___________ Weak hit - 99% (Threshold is 104%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 199% (194% if Fresh))

    F-Smash: Beginning hit - 28% (Threshold is 43%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 77% (62% if Fresh))
    __________ End hit - 52% (Threshold is 64%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 107% (95% if Fresh))
    Up-Smash: Beginning Hit (In Front of Fox) - 2% (Threshold is 20%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 47% (29% if Fresh))
    ___________ End Hit (Behind Fox) - 39% (Threshold is 52%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 92% (79% if Fresh))
    Down-Smash: - 51% (Threshold is 66%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 120% (105% if Fresh)) If CCed, this move will push you far away.

    Side-B: - 11% (Threshold is 18%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 186% (179% if Fresh))
    Down-B: - Never knocks down Ganon but puts Ganon in a lot of hitstun. More hitstun is inflicted if you try to CC this move.
    Up-B: - 1% (Threshold is 15%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 77% (63% if Fresh))

    Nair: Strong hit - 44% (Threshold is 56%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 98% (86% if Fresh))
    ____ Weak Hit - 76% (Threshold is 85%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 139% (130% if Fresh))
    Fair: (First Hit Only) - 80% (Threshold is 87%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 153% (146% if Fresh))
    Up-air: (Both Hits) - Knocks down at 0. Impossible to CC if both hits connect.
    _____ (Strong Hit Only) - 4% (Threshold is 17%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 51% (38% if Fresh))
    Back-air: Strong Hit - 40% (Threshold is 55%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 90% (75% if Fresh))
    _______ Weak Hit - 76% (Threshold is 85%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 139% (130% if Fresh))
    Down-air - Never knocks down Ganon but puts Ganon in a lot of hitlag. This move is not CCable because it hits multiple times.

    F-Throw: This move knocks you down at 41% (Threshold is 48%) (Can't be CCed cause it is a throw)
    B-Throw: This move knocks you down at 0% (Can't be CCed cause it is a throw)



    Captain Falcon

    Jab: - Both the first and second jab are 100% CCable even at 999%
    Gentleman - 50% (Threshold is 63%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 122% (109% if Fresh))
    Ftilt: - 49% (Threshold is 60%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 106% (95% if Fresh))
    Dtilt: - 48% (Threshold is 60%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 116% (104% if Fresh))
    Utilt - 7% (Threshold is 20%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 70% (57% if fresh))
    Dash Attack: Strong hit - 48% (Threshold is 58%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 114% (104% if Fresh))
    ___________ Weak hit - 196% (Threshold is 203%) (Crouch Canceling works past 300%)

    F-Smash: - 6% (Threshold is 26%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 53% (33% if Fresh))
    Up-Smash: Weak First Hit - 0% (Threshold is 0%) (Crouch Canceling works past 300%)
    ___________ Strong Second Hits - 14% (Threshold is 28%) (Crouch Canceling Crouching goes below the hitbox)
    Down-Smash: First Hit - 6% (Threshold is 24%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 54% (36% if Fresh))
    ___________ Second Hit - 19% (Threshold is 35%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 69% (53% if Fresh))

    Side-B: - Always knocks down (Crouch Canceling stops working at 58% (51% if Fresh))
    Down-B: - 23% (Threshold is 35%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 102% (90% is Fresh))
    Up-B (Explosion Release): - 15% (Threshold is 32%)

    Nair: First Hit - Never knocks down. Always CCable.
    ____ Second Hit - 30% (Threshold is 37%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 103% (96% if Fresh))
    Fair: Strong Knee - 11% (Threshold is 29%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 59% (41% if Fresh))
    ____ Weak Knee - 66% (Threshold is 72%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 165% (159% if Fresh))
    Up-air: Front Hit - 39% (Threshold is 51%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 92% (79% if Fresh))
    _____ Back Hit (Toe) - 80% (Threshold is 90%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 152% (142% if Fresh))
    Back-air: Strong Hit - 26% (Threshold is 40%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 77% (63% if Fresh))
    _______ Weak Hit - 55% (Threshold is 65%) (Crouch Canceling stops working at 128% (115% if Fresh))
    Down-air - Can't be CCed whatsoever. stuns at low percents and doesn't pop you up until 3%

    All throws but backthrow will knock you down and backthrow sucks anyway so I won't bother with getting data on that move rofl.
     
    #1 Locke Robster, Jul 8, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
    PaperstSoapCo, -ACE- and tm like this.
  2. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
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    The Immaculate Ambitionist

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    Reserved...
     
  3. -ACE-

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    This is pretty cool. All moves fresh for all this data?
     
  4. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
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    Yup.
     
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  5. Superspright

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    Training mode doesn't stale moves...right?
     
  6. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
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    I kill myself every time I do a move to ensure that the move isn't staled. I can tell when a move is staled because the damage counter on the right.
     
  7. Superspright

    Superspright
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    I'm pretty sure that's the issue with training mode. It has some modifier that isn't present in a versus match. Summon the MIGHTY MAGUS !! Please. >.>
     
  8. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
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    Added Falco Information.
     
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  9. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
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    Added Captain Falcon Information.
     
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  10. -ACE-

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    Dash attack working at 12% on spacies and 16% on cf is pretty boss. I knew it was good for it but I had no idea what the exact numbers were.
     
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  11. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
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    Update 5/15/2015: Added new section (Opponent Knocking down Ganondorf) and Fox data to that section.
     
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  12. Russy

    Russy
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    Godspeed you magnificent warlock
     
  13. -ACE-

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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    Looking forward to falcon.
     
  14. Sebovich

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    More hitstun on Fox shine if cc'ed? Does this apply to Falcos shine as well?
     
  15. Locke Robster

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    Ah dang sorry man, I don't have any work tomorrow (or tonight really lol) so I could probably get this done real soon for Falcon. I'm curious to know as well. This will be next on my list of things I want to do.

    I believe not because Falco's shine sends you upward and will always put you into knockdown.
     
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  16. Locke Robster

    Locke Robster
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    Added Captain Falcon data to Section 2.
     
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  17. Thomas Tipman

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    awesome info. dunno if i missed it but get up attack (below 100%) from the ledge knocks down spacies at 0%. dunno how its affected with CCing but its useful to know.
     
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  18. X WaNtEd X

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    @Locke Robster

    Tipman is right. There's nothing on ledge getup attack knockdowns. This would be useful for both Ganon and when he knocks down with his ledge getup. Even more important might be getup attack from knockdown itself. If you know what percents certain getup attacks knock Ganon down, you can use cc to punish that option from a knockdown.
     
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  19. Locke Robster

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    I feel like I definitely covered this at a certain point in the main Ganon thread we always discuss in, but I feel like it got buried, cause I could have sworn I wrote about this.

    From what I remember, getup attacks from the ledge and from knockdown will always knock you down, even at 0%. I think they were designed that way in order for it to be a good option to get you out of a tricky scenario (intended by the developers).

    I distinctly remember testing to see what percents Ganon can CC a getup attack and a ledge getup attack and be able to dtilt it.

    I might have to go searching for that post, as I didn't think it belonged here at the time, but now that I see it's pretty relevant.
     
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  20. X WaNtEd X

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    Smash Lord

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    I tested for ASDI + CC knockdowns on Ganon against Fox's getup attacks from knockdown and the ledge.

    Knockdown getup: 109%
    Ledge getup: Way past death percent

    If someone tries to do the thing where they miss a tech and wait for you to commit to running at them until doing a getup attack, you can just hold c stick down and reactively crouch out of dash to avoid knockdown.
     
  21. tm

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    wow I never thought about using ASDI down like that. nice
     
  22. Locke Robster

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    That seems like unnecessary effort when the control stick takes priority over the c-stick in terms of ASDI. Holding down on the control stick does ASDI, so crouching out of a run is pretty much the same thing as what you mentioned here. Not to mention that even if you do successfully CC the getup attack, there is a specific percent range in which only certain moves will be able to hit Fox before he is able to do anything. Most notably dtilt.

    I gotta find that post soon.
     
  23. tm

    tm
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    ASDI prioritizes c-stick over the joystick.
     
  24. Locke Robster

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    Ah yes, true. Silly me. I keep getting my sticks mixed up dangit haha.

    Still, running towards a getup attack and having c-stick held down while running will make you stay on the ground, but you still get knocked down, since getup attacks will knock down no matter what unless you are crouch canceling.
     
  25. X WaNtEd X

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    Smash Lord

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    Yes which is why you cc and asdi. Hold down c sick and then press crouch on reaction.
     
  26. X WaNtEd X

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    Smash Lord

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    Dtilt is good though. And you can grab at lower percents. Why is that not worth knowing?
     
  27. -ACE-

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    I don't fully get this. Crouching after you're hit? What am I missing here? You need to already be crouching....

    Edit: typo
     
    #27 -ACE-, May 9, 2016
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  28. Locke Robster

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    Um, CCing and holding down on c-stick for ASDI isn't any different from just holding down as far as I know. Unless there's an actual difference I'm unaware of? Unless you're talking about ASDIing in a different direction from down.

    I never said it wasn't worth knowing? I'm sure you know why it's actually really good. beating getups attack with CC into dtilt and then fair/upair them is godlike.

    You go into crouch animation before you are hit in reaction to the getup attack starting, and then you wait until the getup attack hits you before you dtilt or do whatever.
     
  29. -ACE-

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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    I just didn't think you'd get the initial cc effect if all you're doing is holding c-down.
     
  30. X WaNtEd X

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    Smash Lord

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    I had it in my head asdi could enhance cc for some reason. I remember trying to cc getup attack in matches and it not working. Must've timed it wrong. Guess I was wrong. But those percents still hold true for cc.

    It also turns out asdi in is pretty useless because it lifts you off the ground slightly even when you're crouching.
     

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