I love you for posting this, Vermanubis. PX and I play this matchup a looooooooot.
Squirtle definitely gives Ganon the hardest time by far of the three. Like PX already pointed out, a shellshifting Squirtle goes under a lot of Ganon's attacks. As far as you saying Ganon's midair game beats Squirtle's, I gotta disagree. Squirtle ***** Ganon with aerials onstage. Now if I'm offstage trying to recover, Ganon can gimp Squirtle pretty easily with a dair or a upair. Upair's especially nasty in eating Squirtle's jumps and forcing him to where he can't recover with just his Waterfall. On a side note, Squirtle's ftilt beats Ganon's Wizard Foot. Is very niiice. Like you mentioned in your first post, Ganon kills Squirtle at low percents, but a good Squirtle's all about being annoying/hard to hit. Abuse your non-lag moves against Squirtle--if you use a laggier move, you'll get punished and take a good bit of damage. Predicting a backwards roll with an fsmash is also a viable KO strat for Ganon here.
Well, what I meant with Ganon's aerials beating out Squirtle's is that due to Squirtle's short range, things like uair can beat it out. Dair can be used as a deterrent for shellshifters, granted you're careful not to get hit by a DACUS. But, the main zone I was referring to when I said Ganon beats Squirtle in the air is anywhere but directly in front of him. Squirtle's aerials **** him at chest height, but at any other altitude, Ganon's range engulfs Squirtle.
But indeed Squirtle can wreak unmerciful havoc on Ganon onstage, no question. Just, a lot like Charizard, if you can get Squirtle in the air in any way above chest height, he's pretty easy to keep up there for a while.
Ivysaur can do more than just Razor Leaf camp and follow, but you're right, that is a good option against Ganon. Ivysaur mainly relies on bair and nair to rack up damage and combo, but he has trouble killing Ganondorf. Ganon, on the other hand, completely crushes Ivysaur with just a single upair at mid-high percents while offstage. That attack is nasty. Bullet Seed can trap Ganon well since he's a big target--that is if Ganon doesn't SDI Bullet Seed's hitbox properly. Ivysaur's fsmash is also great for punishing a grounded Wizard's Foot. FYI, Ganon's B moves aren't fire-based, so they don't have additional knockback on Ivysaur.
Aye. While I believe Ivysaur is slightly advantaged as opposed to disadvantaged versus Ganondorf, Ivysaur suffers most from his inability to deal with Ganon at close ranges and how easily he dies. But what I believe gives Ivysaur the edge is his ability to wall Ganon with his range and projectiles.
Charizard's only a "volleyball" for Ganon if Charizard is directly above Ganon. That's the ideal place to attack Charizard, as your upair comes out much, much faster than our dair/nair in this situation. Charizard does a very good job of spacing Ganon with his Flamethrower, dtilt, and ftilt. Ganon's bair beats Charizard's Rock Smash, so if Charizard is spamming it (which most do), bair ***** it pretty hard. There's certain frames where RS beats bair, but I haven't figured out the exact timing of that. The majority of the time, though, bair is a safe bet against Charizard. Bair's even easier to nail on Charizard since he's a big target. Our grab range is pretty ridiculous. I can't tell you how many times PX remarks about how shocked he is at our grab range, haha. Again, upair is your friend against an offstage Charizard. He has three jumps, though, so he's the most difficult to gimp out of the three. If you wanna go for a dair, be aware of Fly's super armor frames. Charizard suffers from recovery lag if he sweetspots the ledge with Fly (so does Squirtle, but the lag's not that big of a deal, unlike Fly), so pressuring him on the side of the stage is an efficient way to handle Charizard. Beware of SH nairs--they have no lag on landing and will lead to other followups such as RS, grab, etc. A sweetspotted fair offstage will force Ganon to an area he can't recover at mid percents and above. For Charizard, this fight's all about taking advantage of Charizard's superior spacing attacks.
Yeah, above him is where I was referring. Charizard's so weighty that if he's pressured, he can't jump over Ganon and is either forced to attack or roll, both of which can be punished. But Charizard's size also plays a big part, since, as you said, bair autocancels work. Agreed that Charizard's spacing is superior and he has the ability to wall Ganon to an extent, but what makes the match a little better is Charizard's susceptibility to most of Ganon's aerials.
I'm actually not much of a numbers guy, but I'd say that both Squirtle and Charizard have an advantage over Ganon, with Squirtle having the largest advantage. Ivysaur probably has a slight disadvantage, in my opinion. Ivysaur rarely does WTF things to Ganon, unlike Squirtle and Charizard. Against PX's Ganondorf, Ivysaur's pretty much useless since he knows how to Ivysaur Cancel.
Hope that helps.
I still say Ivysaur is maybe 45:55, but I agree he is definitely the most useless of the three. And yes, helped greatly, thank you. You stated similar things to me, but my goal is to get informed feedback so I can post this thread on the All is Brawl Ganon match-up thread to validate my statements. There is one person there who is adamant about the overall PT match-up being 80:20.
