ganon>falco

[TheGoat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JpcxpHZG0E
discuss

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Poor Matt. He's like the Red Sox of falco players.

 

[Renth]

Kage is a better player than mattdotzeb.

What are you trying to get across? The match up is winnable? If you believe that Ganon is better than falco or is supposed to win the match up you are horribly wrong.

 

[WINK ;)]

Kage is more skilled and very, very rarely messes up. One of the most solid players ever. Not flashy, just solid. MattDotZeb is just really crazy and SD's and really is not too good. Don't get me wrong, he would body me, but as the pros go he is pretty free.

Tech skill < player skill

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Kage is more skilled and very, very rarely messes up. One of the most solid players ever. Not flashy, just solid. MattDotZeb is just really crazy and SD's and really is not too good. Don't get me wrong, he would body me, but as the pros go he is pretty free.

Tech skill < player skill

don't sleep on matt. he's really ****ing good in a casual setting.

 

[WINK ;)]

don't sleep on matt. he's really ****ing good in a casual setting.

Idk, I mean I know he is skilled but he is too flashy.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Idk, I mean I know he is skilled but he is too flashy.

i'm not buddy buddy with mdz or anything, but since i'm in the boston area often, i've been to some of his smash fests at his house and seen him play in person several times. and i can tell you that it's not really his insane tech skill that makes him good, it's his jankiness. and it's not even him being flashy that brings him down. he just makes really dumb mistakes sometimes in tournament.

 

[WINK ;)]

i'm not buddy buddy with mdz or anything, but since i'm in the boston area often, i've been to some of his smash fests at his house and seen him play in person several times. and i can tell you that it's not really his insane tech skill that makes him good, it's his jankiness. and it's not even him being flashy that brings him down. he just makes really dumb mistakes sometimes in tournament.

Nerves?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Nerves?

the opposite. probably just getting too into it.

 

[Kadano]

MattDotZeb went for many unsafe choices with low reward/risk-ratios. He often over-extended instead of focusing on cutting Kage’s options.

If you don’t play a top-tier character to his strengths, you’re effectively playing a low-tier.

 

[Superspright]

That pretty much sums it up. I love when a space animal doesn't respect me and tries to hop all over my face. Pretty much any Ganondorf player learns to play under intense pressure, and Falco pressure is not even that real in the first place.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

dude falco pressure is very real. it's a playable matchup, but come on now it's still losing. falco's laser pressure severely cuts ganon's options and forces edge play often.

 

[Superspright]

It's not 'real' in the sense it can be worked around. You can eat the laser and SDI waveland, or uair. You can powershield wavedash into him and then jab. You can powershield roll and be behind him as the laser hits. You can use light shield so he can't poke you for the combo laser. You can use platforms to avoid his easy SH lasers and bait him onto a platform. You can even waveland under the lasers if they are high lasers. You can powershield the combo laser and then jump out of shield and aerial and do it faster with c-stick up and c-stick up again. You can rising fair over medium/low lasers and punch him in the face. You can roll through lasers. You can dair over them but that's not safe or profitable usual.

Against double laser you can grab him on the frame he releases the second laser and it will force grab release kill him [uber hard and lulzy]. You can dtilt/wizkick it if the second laser isn't low enough. You can duck and jab, or grab. You have a lot of options against the laser. It's just annoying to deal with, and most don't want to concentrate their game on working around something like that. They'd rather worry about spacing rather than map control. You have to adapt to him. I don't think lasers are as good as some people think.

Also, his pressure isn't really positive on shield unless it's a multi-shine. Any of his rising aerials are fake and are punishable except for bair because he can just utilt, but you can bait that and powershield up-b. But that's hard. This match-up is not in our favor but his pressure isn't real in the sense we can reset, or punish it if we get a read. It's not like he simply transmutes a win.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

It's not 'real' in the sense it can be worked around. You can eat the laser and SDI waveland, or uair. You can powershield wavedash into him and then jab. You can powershield roll and be behind him as the laser hits. You can use light shield so he can't poke you for the combo laser. You can use platforms to avoid his easy SH lasers and bait him onto a platform. You can even waveland under the lasers if they are high lasers. You can powershield the combo laser and then jump out of shield and aerial and do it faster with c-stick up and c-stick up again. You can rising fair over medium/low lasers and punch him in the face. You can roll through lasers. You can dair over them but that's not safe or profitable usual.

Against double laser you can grab him on the frame he releases the second laser and it will force grab release kill him [uber hard and lulzy]. You can dtilt/wizkick it if the second laser isn't low enough. You can duck and jab, or grab. You have a lot of options against the laser. It's just annoying to deal with, and most don't want to concentrate their game on working around something like that. They'd rather worry about spacing rather than map control. You have to adapt to him. I don't think lasers are as good as some people think.

Also, his pressure isn't really positive on shield unless it's a multi-shine. Any of his rising aerials are fake and are punishable except for bair because he can just utilt, but you can bait that and powershield up-b. But that's hard. This match-up is not in our favor but his pressure isn't real in the sense we can reset, or punish it if we get a read. It's not like he simply transmutes a win.

Yes those are all things you can do in the matchup. There are always options, as you've pointed out. But there aren't nearly as many as against other characters in my opinion and that's one of the main reasons it's 6-4. It's annoying having to play in my shield a lot against falcos. I actually in some ways like the fox matchup better because I have an easier time in the neutral game if I'm on point and keep myself out of shield spacing out moves a lot. Despite losing the neutral game against Falco way harder than fox, my punishments on falco are a lot more severe so I guess might make up for it a bit.

 

[Superspright]

Fox can just touch us and make us die with shine. I'd rather fight Falco over Fox any day. I'm pretty comfortable going in and out of my shield at this point. If you can't get comfortable with it then the match up will never feel better than 6-4. It's like 8-2 with no work around on the lasers, and probably more like 55-45 if laser pressure is literally useless on you. He's still got a winning match up, but I wonder if it's really that high. It probably is, but whatever.

Fox is definitely worse. I've played some decent foxes, and it's always harder to clutch out a win against Fox than it is Falco.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I've gotten way better at power shielding lately and it's made that mu way easier.

 

[Superspright]

If you pause the frame you run away and then shield you'll notice it protects you on a 45 degree angle. You should experiment using that in your DD game against the spacies...it makes powershielding much easier against the high lasers used to stuff aerials.

 

[spider_sense]

Remember Mattdotzebb getting **** on by one of our local players. :/

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon's worst enemy is a technical fox that plays the matchup correctly. Sheik is almost tied for this since a decent sheik that has matchup experience can beat any ganon. After that, falco. Then peach/marth/falcon in no order.

imo. They are all so close, but I believe fox and sheik are the worst for us.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

campy fox is depressing for me, personally.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Ganon's worst enemy is a technical fox that plays the matchup correctly. Sheik is almost tied for this since a decent sheik that has matchup experience can beat any ganon. After that, falco. Then peach/marth/falcon in no order.

imo. They are all so close, but I believe fox and sheik are the worst for us.

I think falcon is definitely harder than Peach and Marth. Peach and Marth matchups are pretty even if you play your cards right. Falcon and ganon however is a game of basketball. Both characters punish each other so hard. The difference is falcon has a superior neutral game and generally can set up combos, tech chases, edgeguards, etc. much easier with more consistency.

 

[VegiLohrd]

I think falcon is definitely harder than Peach and Marth. Peach and Marth matchups are pretty even if you play your cards right. Falcon and ganon however is a game of basketball. Both characters punish each other so hard. The difference is falcon has a superior neutral game and generally can set up combos, tech chases, edgeguards, etc. much easier with more consistency.

Agreed. Marth is a pretty even matchup, and Peach can be punished pretty hard if she slips up. But Falcon is fast enough that he can capitalize on openings they can't

 

[Superspright]

How is Marth near even? Maybe Peach, but Marth? We have a few tricks on him, but a very careful Marth with good spacing is a real ***** to get around. Our legs are always exposed for dtilts, and edge-guarding us is a joke, and his range is roughly even but spacing for him is easier.

 

[-ACE-]

Falcon is harder to get used to playing against, I'll give you that.... But don't forget he has obvious weaknesses even ganon can exploit. I've done a lot of thinking on this over the past 8 years. If I had to say, marth, falcon, then peach. But I'm not 100% sure like everyone else always is.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

How is Marth near even? Maybe Peach, but Marth? We have a few tricks on him, but a very careful Marth with good spacing is a real ***** to get around. Our legs are always exposed for dtilts, and edge-guarding us is a joke, and his range is roughly even but spacing for him is easier.

it is considered an even matchup by most people

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Falcon is harder to get used to playing against, I'll give you that.... But don't forget he has obvious weaknesses even ganon can exploit. I've done a lot of thinking on this over the past 8 years. If I had to say, marth, falcon, then peach. But I'm not 100% sure like everyone else always is.

could you write some stuff about the matchup? i'm really struggling with it. i personally have more problems with falcon than spacies at this point. not that i actually think it's a harder matchup...

 

[Superspright]

it is considered an even matchup by most people

Top lvl Marth vs Top lvl Ganondorf has to be like 60/40. Anything before that I feel is 50/50...but there's just a point where you're going to get exploited as Ganondorf really hard. He's way faster on the ground, and in the air he's slightly more dangerous, and his grab is way better. I'm not sure how that's a 50/50, and he combos the piss out of us. The only thing we have going for us is that if we make it past 120% we can just go into our shield a lot more because his grab game is useless after that point. A Marth who can flow-chart to kill is the one I'm talking about--some attrition Marth is gonna suck. If we do hit/grab him it's straight profit but I find it's pretty hard to do that against a Marth who is just DDing around and ducking all your hits. I'm pretty sure he can duck our entire move set except for dtilt/low ftilt. The bread and butter Marth is not the one I am talking about--the one who hates your guts and trains for that match up so you just get scraped. I'd put up a video of Mango playing Marth against Kage, but it's so stupid to compare Kage to Mango anyway, but Mango basically demolishes his character more than Kage himself.

 

[VegiLohrd]

Even though Loki loses this one I think this is a pretty good indicator of how the matchup tends to play out. Notice how when Falcon tries to shorthop knee he uses an up angled forward tilt to stuff it.

 

[Superspright]

Loki played pretty solidly there--there were a few missed opportunities but some of his reads were really on-point. His edge-guarding was nice and simple. Tipman edge-guard is OP. I felt so bad once he went to FD. If Loki won the first game he might have won the set. I still would have banned FD. What did he ban?

 

[-ACE-]

could you write some stuff about the matchup? i'm really struggling with it. i personally have more problems with falcon than spacies at this point. not that i actually think it's a harder matchup...

Stuff that doesn't get mentioned enough: Falcon is basically ready for your entire aerial set. I think a lot of Ganons spend slightly too much time in the air during this matchup. When you do go for an aerial against falcon it has to be spaced extremely well. You want to be in constant control of your character and be able to react to his approaches quickly, so you can bait him/punish his mistakes more easily. A strong ground game can help a lot. Ftilts, high ftilts, jabs, grabs, short dashdances, empty SHFL's, SHFF perfect wavelands, avoiding unnecessary platform work (random example: don't jump, waveland off platform and fair him, jump up ready to uair, but if he doesn't move, drift toward him and uair his shield just out of grab range), wavedashing back instead of doing a random retreating fair (situational), USING YOUR ROLLS WISELY. Spend a lot of time analyzing the mistakes you make with your "combo" or "escape" DI when getting combo'd by falcon, and try your best to correct them. Grab more. Upgrade your defense and more openings will come to you.