Ganon being OP in the year 2016

[Alter Requiem]

So aside from EVO, I haven't been to any tourneys for smash 4. A few social venues, but thats it. While this is the most cliche thing to say, I beat my friends a majority of the time so I think I'm hot ****. My solo maining of Ganondorf has gotten to the point where my friend (whom I consider one the best player in my circle of friends) questions how balanced Ganondorf is. (Yeah.) So I'm going to try to start secretly recording our friendlies even if its just top clips from audio sure to bring a smile to any serious player's face. If you want to know what to look forward to, think RoosterTeeth's "Ragequit" series, but 100% legitimate. Does anyone else have any deluded friends who complain about Ganon being OP? If so what are some of your favorite quotes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7LZyY1xPZY heres something to get you going

 

[Dark Phazon]

Ganon is life for sure i have mained him since 3DS release and he still is my #1 Main with DDD being #2.

Big hopes for Ground Wizkick increase knock back buff and also for his UpB.
What i must say though i really...REALLY hate Ganon Ditto's one of the worse Dittos imo it proves nothing really...just who is more patient..

 

[Koskinator]

Phazon get the cheese outta ur **** ganon dittos are the truth son

 

[Vermanubis]

Ganon is life for sure i have mained him since 3DS release and he still is my #1 Main with DDD being #2.

Big hopes for Ground Wizkick increase knock back buff and also for his UpB.
What i must say though i really...REALLY hate Ganon Ditto's one of the worse Dittos imo it proves nothing really...just who is more patient..

If patience is what wins the ditto, isn't that what makes the better player?

 

[Alter Requiem]

If patience is what wins the ditto, isn't that what makes the better player?

Yes and no, I feel like I have to side with the aggressor (in most cases) even if they lose because of how much more fun it is to watch. A Ganon that only dash>Pivot>F-tilts just to punish aggression from the other doesn't really prove anything to me.

I personally hate waiting for safe damage with Ganon. Id say my playstyle is 25% patience 75% hard reads.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yes and no, I feel like I have to side with the aggressor (in most cases) even if they lose because of how much more fun it is to watch. A Ganon that only dash>Pivot>F-tilts just to punish aggression from the other doesn't really prove anything to me.

I personally hate waiting for safe damage with Ganon. Id say my playstyle is 25% patience 75% hard reads.

If that's all they can do, shouldn't it be easy to beat?

Not that Ganon dittos prove categorically who's a superior player overall, but if you lose a Ganon ditto, no matter how someone plays, you lose the Ganon ditto. If you lose, you lose. Some say Ganon dittos are all about who gets the first hit or first hard read -- couldn't everyone who loses to Ganon undermine their losses and the Ganon's wins by saying "Ganon just got a lucky read/was more patient than me"?

What makes a good player is the ability to either 1) make someone play your game or 2) beat them at their own. If someone loses a Ganon ditto, I think they'll experience no greater *********** in growth as a player than to tell themselves that "had this not happened, I'd have won," rather, the ideal mindset should be "I should've just performed that much better to compensate for any mistakes."

While I agree that I always root for people who <don't> play lame, I can't say I fully engender the idea that someone not proving anything to me means I didn't earn a legitimate loss. If we acknowledge only the skills <we> deem virtuous and worthwhile, we essentially go into every match with the pretense that unless this person's skill set is exactly the same as mine, it doesn't count, which, obviously, doesn't much encourage a dynamic mindset, which means you'll only ever beat a small subset of players.

For the record, I disapprove of lame tactics to the extreme. I think playing lame is contrary to the spirit of the game and battle of wits it's intended to be, but ultimately, even if you think your opponent didn't deserve the win, it's fair to say you deserved the loss if you couldn't cope with what was happening.

 

[verbatim]

In his book on fighting games, Playing to Win, David Sirlin addressed the idea of differing playstyles in fighting games. His ending point was pretty pertinent, the best players are those that change their modus operandi and play to their opponents' weaknesses.

I like to explain this idea with Sonic players. 6WX is by far and away considered to be the most offensive of the professional Sonic players. This prowess lead him to an incredible 4th place at APEX. As Sonic got nerfed over multiple patches, losing most of his kill options in the process, 6WX, while still placing well, ended up being outplaced by more defensive Sonics throughout the summer.

A good example of a more defensive Sonic would be Heero (formerly staticmanny). The player who originally put Sonic on the map in America, his originally hyper offensive playstyle shifted towards a more passive one as Sonic started losing kill options. At APEX he timed out AnTi to win their set. This is kind of like the "patience" that you mentioned. That being said holding back isn't always the wisest option. He was eliminated at MLG because he threw away a full stock lead trying to time someone out on Duck Hunt.


Both players are amazing, but in some ways they can be tied to their archetypes. In my mind, the best Sonic player at this point is Komorikiri, #3 on Japan's December Powerranking. Whenever I watch Komorikiri play, I see him shift his playstyle to best suit the situation at hand.

All three are amazing Sonic players, and each have great placings to their names, but come Genesis, which all three are entered in, my money will be on Komorikiri having the best showing for a Sonic player.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Well the only Ganondorf I've personally lost to due to a skill deficit was:

A) A long time ago when I was far from my best
B) On for glory, with the overall lagginess catering to a reactionary turtle playstyle

So think of that what you will, and even then the games were always close.

I guess what I'm saying is, I see the true test of a Ganon main's skill as being able to stay viable against characters whole tiers above you, not someone who excels at Ganoning another Ganon better. Hence me not bothered, nor impressed by Ganon dittos.

Not to discredit the victory of the opposing ditto, but its a completely different type of fight. Against a competant Pikachu or ZSS for example, your tech skill and edgeguarding has to be on point to keep it in your favor. A fight against ganondorf is vastly less demanding in almost every way. To the point where they don't even have to know much about edgeguarding because everyones too afraid of getting 'cided to even try.

 

[Vermanubis]

Well the only Ganondorf I've personally lost to due to a skill deficit was:

A) A long time ago when I was far from my best
B) On for glory, with the overall lagginess catering to a reactionary turtle playstyle

So think of that what you will, and even then the games were always close.

I guess what I'm saying is, I see the true test of a Ganon main's skill as being able to stay viable against characters whole tiers above you, not someone who excels at Ganoning another Ganon better. Hence me not bothered, nor impressed by Ganon dittos.

Not to discredit the victory of the opposing ditto, but its a completely different type of fight. Against a competant Pikachu or ZSS for example, your tech skill and edgeguarding has to be on point to keep it in your favor. A fight against ganondorf is vastly less demanding in almost every way. To the point where they don't even have to know much about edgeguarding because everyones too afraid of getting 'cided.

Not trying to be pointlessly contrarian, but if it's that simple, why would you ever lose it?

It is indeed a different kind of fight. But I think we can agree that a player who is more complete is overall the better player. And if a player beats you in a Ganon ditto, it matters. If you can't adapt to their patience and pivot ftilting, then they succeeded in a place where you didn't.

I agree that a Ganon's steel's tested against characters like Pika or ZSS, but if you can beat these characters, you should by all means be able to consistently win Ganon dittos.

Like I said, once we start defining which wins and losses count, we begin limiting ourselves. One day, if you face a Ganondorf in grand finals, no one's gonna have this "well, I got 2nd because Dorf dittos are stupid and I'm probably better than that guy anyway" business. One might just as easily say the same about any MU.

 

[mgleed]

I'm not really sure where the anti-Ganon ditto attitude stems from, and I feel I've seen it more prevalent lately.

I personally feel the ditto means more than pretty much any other MU on its own, or at least tells more about the players. It takes away any perceived "advantages" or "disadvantages" in any certain MU and leaves the opponents in a battle of sheer grit, finesse, technique, and mental fortitude. Playing the ditto has been, at least for me, a way to improve without the option of chalking up my imperfect performance to my character's inherent weaknesses. I've learned how to play more patiently and how to use a smarter balance of aggression and patience against patient players (though Kosk might disagree), and the lessons go well beyond just the ditto and Ganon. "Hard reads" can only get you so far.

 

[Vermanubis]

Agreed with mgleed

Anyway, sorry, Alter Requiem , it seems your thread's been a bit derailed. Hopefully I haven't made you feel ganged-up upon. This mentality of which I speak certainly takes some getting used to. In summary, I'm just advising against arbitrarily deciding which MUs matter and which don't. You'll ultimately improve much more if you place any and all blame for losses on yourself rather than your playstyle. In a competitive setting, people will respond to this with "after all, you didn't lose because you made good decisions." The win screen doesn't determine who had the sweetest reads or most blind aggression, rather, whoever lost their stocks first, through whatever means. If superior patience was the means, nothing you had could beat that patience, therefore, it's a just loss.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Wouldn't Dorf dittos be considered one of the best ways to practice patience anyway? You're fighting the one character that puts more fear into anyone than any other character. Sure you can fight a Sheik or a ZSS or a Pika, but they don't instill the same fears because you usually know what to expect from them. Dorf requires a very strong understanding of fundamentals, patience, and adaptation to overcome the obstacles that are put in front of him, and it's because of this that I feel Dorf dittos are a good point of practice. Everything I've learned from maining Dorf for so many years has transferred to the other characters I play, and thus improves their performances as well.

 

[Dark Phazon]

If patience is what wins the ditto, isn't that what makes the better player?

Not Really....Not Really at all....so if.you.gotta projectile its called camping if.you dont its called being patient?
hohoho these smash shenanigans.
PS: Nice try....

Not trying to be pointlessly contrarian, but if it's that simple, why would you ever lose it?

It is indeed a different kind of fight. But I think we can agree that a player who is more complete is overall the better player. And if a player beats you in a Ganon ditto, it matters. If you can't adapt to their patience and pivot ftilting, then they succeeded in a place where you didn't.

I agree that a Ganon's steel's tested against characters like Pika or ZSS, but if you can beat these characters, you should by all means be able to consistently win Ganon dittos.

Like I said, once we start defining which wins and losses count, we begin limiting ourselves. One day, if you face a Ganondorf in grand finals, no one's gonna have this "well, I got 2nd because Dorf dittos are stupid and I'm probably better than that guy anyway" business. One might just as easily say the same about any MU.

Dude have you ever even played as Ganon?
Fact is Ganon cant take his own strength you see this in a Ganon ditto his bad recovery cant let him recover from getting hit with his own FSmash its a weired battle and could go either way fast....

 

[Alter Requiem]

Agreed with mgleed

Anyway, sorry, Alter Requiem , it seems your thread's been a bit derailed. Hopefully I haven't made you feel ganged-up upon. This mentality of which I speak certainly takes some getting used to. In summary, I'm just advising against arbitrarily deciding which MUs matter and which don't. You'll ultimately improve much more if you place any and all blame for losses on yourself rather than your playstyle. In a competitive setting, people will respond to this with "after all, you didn't lose because you made good decisions." The win screen doesn't determine who had the sweetest reads or most blind aggression, rather, whoever lost their stocks first, through whatever means. If superior patience was the means, nothing you had could beat that patience, therefore, it's a just loss.

I dont care, it was a meme thread anyway.

Yeah, Ganon dittos are just a matchup that I play so rarely, when it happens i usually just get caught off guard by something that never happens in any other matchup.
I suspect I would have a different opinion if I actually ever got to practice dittos. (not on For Glory)

Not Really....Not Really at all....so if.you.gotta projectile its called camping if.you dont its called being patient?

:^)

 

[Dark Phazon]

 

[FamilyTeam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7LZyY1xPZY heres something to get you going

Although I can see you are a competent Ganondorf...
...I will admit my reaction to that Mario was

Anyway, to answer your question: One of my Skype friends believes Ganondorf is OP because Reverse Warlock Punch kills some people in 0%.
Because you know, that happens all the time.

 

[Alter Requiem]

ahh For Glory how I hate thee

my reaction to that Mario was

In all honesty I bodied him that game, but he usually keeps it very close

 

[Vermanubis]

Dude have you ever even played as Ganon?
Fact is Ganon cant take his own strength you see this in a Ganon ditto his bad recovery cant let him recover from getting hit with his own FSmash its a weired battle and could go either way fast....

Don't get hit then.

 

[jmanup85]

Ganon is life for sure i have mained him since 3DS release and he still is my #1 Main with DDD being #2.

Big hopes for Ground Wizkick increase knock back buff and also for his UpB.
What i must say though i really...REALLY hate Ganon Ditto's one of the worse Dittos imo it proves nothing really...just who is more patient..

I recover in the ditto all the time though... and this is me playing against some pretty high level players. This post... this post... speechless is what I am. Gleed is right, many people lately are whining alot about the ditto and all this nonsense. I'm gonna just be a jerk and say many of them can't even hold their own against other characters, let alone Ganon in the ditto. Git gud scrubs.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Everybody's full of angst today! I love it!

 

[Vermanubis]

Alright, gentlemen, let's get back on topic now.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Alright, gentlemen, let's get back on topic now.

I was thinking of just changing the topic to... "Ganon Dittos: how salty do they make YOU?"

 

[Vermanubis]

I was thinking of just changing the topic to... "Ganon Dittos: how salty do they make YOU?"

I'd personally sanction this idea.

 

[jmanup85]

I really like the ditto though. There are other MU's to be salty about like Sonic. I can provide salt for days about that one.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Can't get mad about Ganon ditto's. I have fun even when I lose. And I learn strategies other players implement. Now fighting a Sonic or Yoshi over and over as Ganon or even as my main Bowser? That **** ain't fun at all.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Can't get mad about Ganon ditto's. I have fun even when I lose. And I learn strategies other players implement. Now fighting a Sonic or Yoshi over and over as Ganon or even as my main Bowser? That **** ain't fun at all.

I do hate the sonic MU, but I literally butthole annihilate Yoshis.

Also your picture is hype, know where I can find a full size?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I do hate the sonic MU, but I literally butthole annihilate Yoshis.

Also your picture is hype, know where I can find a full size?

I just play a good Yoshi player and he's mean. Feels like a stress test when as Bowser and Ganon I have to plan my moves carefully and you got stuff like Yoshi who can throw out aerials and be safe all the time. Still fun though.

Oh and here:

http://img05.deviantart.net/797e/i/...anondorf_vs__akuma_by_bustergarou-d4p1phs.png

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

Personally, I consider Ganon dittos to be the funnest in the game. No shenanigans, no tricks, just two people trying to outthink and outpredict each other with Ganon's quite limited tools.

Or just plain turning both your brains off and mindlessly beating the hell out of each other.

 

[Xinc]

Ganon dittos are a way to show how well you know Ganon and how well you can adapt to your opponent. That's basically it, imo. But the king of evil? There can only be one.

 

[Theosmeo]

Here is a huge stupid essay about passive Ganon:

Honestly my favorite MU to play is Captain Falcon, not even for thematic reasons either. His general speedy play style combined with similar hitboxes make him one of the characters I have too think the most while playing. While he has a pretty solidly advantageous matchup he also has an abusable recovery, but we have an abusable recovery as well. Both of us survive longer offstage by landing our up specials, which is a good metaphor for both characters and how useful landing a single hit is.

I have a friend that has played at least 2,000 hours of smash since its release last summer. He is definitely a stronger player than me with one catch: he only practices random. Few people I've played understand spacing and neutral as well as him but because he's never focused on one character his punish game always trails behind. When I play him, he specifically chooses whoever he wants rather than leaving it up to random. When he gets Falcon he beats me 10% of the time. When he gets Ganon he beats me 50%.
Despite having equal training with both character, he can more reliably defeat me with the character who more relies on defensive play rather than offensive play, and that is because I(like many others) have created my own style of play. Mine is best designed to combat offensive players by meeting them head on with more offense in an attempt to intimidate, then I watch what they do and set up for powerful punishes. My strategy is in no way the best however, as it makes some MUs abysmal. One could tell me to adapt my playstyle to fit some MUs better than others, but someone could also tell me to main Sheik and it has the same amount of meaning to me.

Oh wait, people said to get this back on track...

I would love to see a 20GX style write-up about Ganon and why he's going to become the new meta once we reach tool-assisted levels of technical play. For reference: http://www.meleeitonme.com/20gx/

 

[Aquasition]

The year is 2016...

Joke aside, I've been on the recieving end of getting wrecked by a Dorf before, courtesy of Vermanubis. and while I usually don't play as Dorf too often, Dorf dittos are always funny. ESPECIALLY IN FFA.

Also, I see you there Verbatim :]

just my 2 cents as someone who plays him for fun ('v' )

 

[adom4]

Wouldn't Dorf dittos be considered one of the best ways to practice patience anyway? You're fighting the one character that puts more fear into anyone than any other character. Sure you can fight a Sheik or a ZSS or a Pika, but they don't instill the same fears because you usually know what to expect from them. Dorf requires a very strong understanding of fundamentals, patience, and adaptation to overcome the obstacles that are put in front of him, and it's because of this that I feel Dorf dittos are a good point of practice. Everything I've learned from maining Dorf for so many years has transferred to the other characters I play, and thus improves their performances as well.

I'd say the Rosa, Falcon, DDD & Kirby MUs are some of the best to get better at being patient in general (though Kirby takes this to an extreme level because of how boring it is to fight against him), all of those are MUs where rushing in blindlessly will usually get you bodied hard.

 

[Gold_TSG]

I'd say the Rosa, Falcon, DDD & Kirby MUs are some of the best to get better at being patient in general (though Kirby takes this to an extreme level because of how boring it is to fight against him), all of those are MUs where rushing in blindlessly will usually get you bodied hard.

If you're rushing in blindless... Doesn't that mean you know what you're doing?

Jokes aside, I know those MUs are kinda nasty, but they're good for different reasons. Rosa for Luma, Falcon for speed and grabs, DDD for gordos and power/range, and Kirby for his stupid combos and gimping powers. I just think Dorf dittos helps with the basics before pushing against the harder stuff.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon dittos would be the greatest thing this game has to offer if Ganon FFAs didn't exist;

or Ganon FFAs with items;

or Ganon FFAs with items on janky custom stages;

 

[adom4]

Ganon dittos would be the greatest thing this game has to offer if Ganon FFAs didn't exist;

or Ganon FFAs with items;

or Ganon FFAs with items on janky custom stages;

8 player Ganon FFAs on Hyrule 64.

 

[Gold_TSG]

8 player Ganon FFAs on Hyrule Temple.

FTFY

 

[Dark Phazon]

I recover in the ditto all the time though... and this is me playing against some pretty high level players. This post... this post... speechless is what I am. Gleed is right, many people lately are whining alot about the ditto and all this nonsense. I'm gonna just be a jerk and say many of them can't even hold their own against other characters, let alone Ganon in the ditto. Git gud scrubs.

Ermm i consider myself a very good ganon and by the way i win majority about 80% of my Ganon dittos anyway the point is i just dont like Ganon dittos more so than any other char dittos...well i only play as Ganon & DDD anyway...i have never played as anyone else since launch but i do dabble in the other heavies D.K, Charizard, Bowser & Abit of Mew2 but thats it.

 

[Shmeckie]

Ganon dittos are fun, but they're so silly at times I dunno how much they work as a direct gauge of who has the better Ganon. It's basically a game of Chinese Hot Hands.

 

[Alter Requiem]

Ganon dittos are fun, but they're so silly at times I dunno how much they work as a direct gauge of who has the better Ganon. It's basically a game of Chinese Hot Hands.

Fking this. The dittos themselves are fine. But this.

 

[Vermanubis]

Ganon dittos are fun, but they're so silly at times I dunno how much they work as a direct gauge of who has the better Ganon. It's basically a game of Chinese Hot Hands.

A gauge of the better Ganon? Likely not, you're right.

Just for the record, this isn't addressing anyone in particular, just my personal philosophy regarding that topic, since you've brought it up.

The operative notion is similar to that of any other case of losing to someone. That is, regardless of whatever semantic gymnastics one does to minimize their shortcomings (e.g. I lost to him but I'm overall better, he beat me in this MU, but I'm better in this one, etc.), the fact is that one lost. I think thinking too broadly in terms of "I'm <overall> better," is dangerous, since it favors areas where you already succeed rather than focusing on areas where you're failing, i.e. if someone beats you in a Ganon ditto, they're <better than you at that>. Being okay with that is an anti-competitive escapism.