Gameplay Feedback: Will the Smash Wii U/3DS mechanics receive changes?

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

During E3, Nintendo reps received feedback from plenty of Smash players, including participants from the Invitational, on some suggestions for the new games. The suggestions mainly consisted of various changes to the gameplay mechanics, such as more movement options(dash dancing) or lower landing lag after aerial attacks. The reps wrote down what people had to say, and even checked for correct terminology.

So, with the good amount of info and feedback Nintendo has received, do you believe the suggested changes will be made? I'm confident this game will receive changes, but Sakurai really considers this a party game. He may not even believe the changes are necessary. What are everyone else's thoughts?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

A friend of mine once told me that they will change.

 

[pickle962]

Oh definitely! It would be a waste for there to be Nintendo reps if feedback from the e3 2014 demo wasn't used to help fine tune smash 4 so it can reach its true competitive potential

 

[Ryan.]

Eh. I wouldn't care either way. I always considered Smash a party game myself, but there is no reason it can't be used for both parties and competitive matches. Hopefully they will make some changes to the mechanics so more people are happy.

 

[Tenkira]

I think he will even though he considers it to be a party game, because i'm pretty sure he said he wants to cater towards competitive and casuals. Hopefully the things suggested will be catered to in some way so we could have a game that would be for both parties c:

 

[RODO]

I sure hope so.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Well they made an effort to actually GET feedback, not many people do that, especially in person.
I'm not expecting wavedashes or any of those type of things to come back(maybe in a newly animated and newly named position however), but I'm expecting some form of L-cancel or just general speed increase to be debated.
All up to the Sak.

 

[LancerStaff]

Of course they'll be changed with the funky knockback. But like I've said before, first, it will NOT be anything major like adding L-canceling or even a significant lag reduction, and second, it all depends on what Japan thinks.

 

[RODO]

Of course they'll be changed with the funky knockback. But like I've said before, first, it will NOT be anything major like adding L-canceling or even a significant lag reduction, and second, it all depends on what Japan thinks.

Only going by what Japan thinks is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world.

 

[Senario]

Of course they'll be changed with the funky knockback. But like I've said before, first, it will NOT be anything major like adding L-canceling or even a significant lag reduction, and second, it all depends on what Japan thinks.

Pretty sure significant lag reduction is reasonable...Also, Nintendo is very receptive to the input. Sakurai isn't so we shall see who has more pull, the publisher or the director. I'm sure nobody can argue with a better game for everybody though.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I don't see why not. The release date would have been yesterday if they weren't planning on changing the gameplay.

 

[LancerStaff]

Only going by what Japan thinks is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world.

Only going by what Melee players think is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world.

Pretty sure significant lag reduction is reasonable...Also, Nintendo is very receptive to the input. Sakurai isn't so we shall see who has more pull, the publisher or the director. I'm sure nobody can argue with a better game for everybody though.

First, the whole game has been balanced like this and simply reducing it across the board would cause balance issues that would have to be fixed, leading into my second point, that there's only three months left until the Japanese release date and one of those months will be for printing copies.

 

[Miffa]

I don't see why not. The release date would have been yesterday if they weren't planning on changing the gameplay.

The game would not be released since the game always crashed and has to be debugged and balanced more.

 

[FrostShock]

I think Sakurai and his team realize how much is riding on this. They'll ultimately do what they think is best, but they didn't take all that feedback just to give those reps something to do.

 

[Miffa]

I think Sakurai and his team realize how much is riding on this. They'll ultimately do what they think is best, but they didn't take all that feedback just to give those reps something to do.

Does not mean he will follow it if those things were meant to be in the game they would have been there he said at E3 its a party game which basically says i ain't making this for competitive play.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Only going by what Melee players think is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world.



First, the whole game has been balanced like this and simply reducing it across the board would cause balance issues that would have to be fixed, leading into my second point, that there's only three months left until the Japanese release date and one of those months will be for printing copies.

I agree with your statements, but tbh I've seen you argue against Smash having advanced techniques in older threads. Dont know why you're so against L-cancelling. Because the only reason why L cancelling with Fox in Melee created insne shield pressure situations was because of the game's high gravity. Put Melee Fox in Brawl and that shine pressure would get shield grabbed by anyone but Snake. Smash 4 is floatier than Melee. Insane Melee shield pressure won't happen in this game. Besides, in Melee, no character was able to put up such immense shield pressure besides Fox and Falco. Maybe Peach. Thats it.

 

[Senario]

Only going by what Melee players think is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world.



First, the whole game has been balanced like this and simply reducing it across the board would cause balance issues that would have to be fixed, leading into my second point, that there's only three months left until the Japanese release date and one of those months will be for printing copies.

Because brawl wasn't completely different about three months before release as well. Honestly, it comes down to if nintendo can get the feedback applied to the game. The game has crappy balancing anyway so far. Sakurai has admitted to balancing some chars around 4 player free for all and some in 1v1 situations.

I know you hate melee players but we just want a game that can be good for us too. We want to like the game competitively as we are the biggest supporters of smash. But if we are given no reason to there isn't a point.

Again, changes are likely to happen if nintendo has any pull with the devs. Three months is a lot of time when they are still working out balance.

 

[spader13]

Will there be some changes? Absolutely. However, the sheer volume of suggestions, likely with some contradictory ones, would make it impossible to implement all of them and test the changes without a length delay. While it's possible either game could get pushed back, I'm sure that's a last resort.

 

[sunshinesan]

I made a tier list of things that I want back.

S-tier
Jump momentum preservation
SDI

A-tier
L-canceling/landing lag reduction
Dash dancing

B-tier
Directional Air dodges
Wavedashing

C-tier
Shines that don't suck
Float cancels

 

[Miffa]

Will there be some changes? Absolutely. However, the sheer volume of suggestions, likely with some contradictory ones, would make it impossible to implement all of them and test the changes without a length delay. While it's possible either game could get pushed back, I'm sure that's a last resort.

No chance Sakurai delays smash for competitive players or Nintendo allows it that game needed to come out yesterday.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Will there be some changes? Absolutely. However, the sheer volume of suggestions, likely with some contradictory ones, would make it impossible to implement all of them and test the changes without a length delay. While it's possible either game could get pushed back, I'm sure that's a last resort.

I'd be fine with a game delay if it means more improvements can be made. That's just assuming it comes down to that however. I doubt every suggestion will be incorporated into the final product, but I'm hoping some tweaks are made.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I made a tier list of things that I want back.

S-tier
Jump momentum preservation
SDI

A-tier
L-canceling/landing lag reduction
Dash dancing

B-tier
Directional Air dodges
Wavedashing

C-tier
Shines that don't suck
Float cancels

Wow, what I would do for jump momentum. Even in reality, it's illogical for one to have no momentum in the air after running quickly then jumping. No gamer, casual or not, should be forced to play a game some way. That's what makes Smash so great. That you can play how you want. It's sad to see control options limited. I really hope Sakurai takes the suggestions into consideration, even if he does consider Smash a party game.

 

[Hitzel]

Only going by what Melee players think is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world.

I'm not a Melee player.

I think that excessively laggy air attacks is a ****ing stupid mechanic.

 

[LancerStaff]

I agree with your statements, but tbh I've seen you argue against Smash having advanced techniques in older threads. Dont know why you're so against L-cancelling. Because the only reason why L cancelling with Fox in Melee created insne shield pressure situations was because of the game's high gravity. Put Melee Fox in Brawl and that shine pressure would get shield grabbed by anyone but Snake. Smash 4 is floatier than Melee. Insane Melee shield pressure won't happen in this game. Besides, in Melee, no character was able to put up such immense shield pressure besides Fox and Falco. Maybe Peach. Thats it.

I'm against L-canceling pretty much just because there's no choice involved, though, a simple lag reduction would be welcome in my book.

Because brawl wasn't completely different about three months before release as well. Honestly, it comes down to if nintendo can get the feedback applied to the game. The game has crappy balancing anyway so far. Sakurai has admitted to balancing some chars around 4 player free for all and some in 1v1 situations.

I know you hate melee players but we just want a game that can be good for us too. We want to like the game competitively as we are the biggest supporters of smash. But if we are given no reason to there isn't a point.

Again, changes are likely to happen if nintendo has any pull with the devs. Three months is a lot of time when they are still working out balance.

Bad balance? Weren't Zelda and maybe Villager the only truly bad characters in the demo?

I don't hate Melee players. But I don't like the entitlement that many Melee players have and the general whinning about how glitchity glitch #37 isn't possible anymore. Biggest supporters? No, you're equal to the rest of us.

The last two months are usually bug testing, minor graphical improvements, and smaller scale balancing. I doubt there'll be significant changes to the current build.

I made a tier list of things that I want back.

S-tier
Jump momentum preservation
SDI

Why is SDI so good, again? It ruins like a quarter of the game's moves. Wouldn't be easier to balance if, I dunno, all the moves worked as intended?

I'm not a Melee player.

I think that excessively laggy air attacks is a ****ing stupid mechanic.

"Only going by what competitive players think is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world."

Fixed.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Why would they take feed back if they weren't planning on listening to it?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Why would they take feed back if they weren't planning on listening to it?

To feign that they were?

 

[RODO]

Only going by what Melee players think is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world.

Agreed since I'm not a Melee player lol

 

[D-idara]

To feign that they were?

Yeah, sure, Nintendo is evil now. Why did people take Sakurai's party game comment so goddamn seriously?

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Yeah, sure, Nintendo is evil now. Why did people take Sakurai's party game comment so goddamn seriously?

I don't believe Nintendo is evil and I'm actually excited for Smash 4 just the way I've already seen it.

However...

I've all too often seen the "It's just beta!" and the several different variations of the exact same argument with so many games (especially MMO betas) only to find out that, surprise-surprise, the release product ends up being near identical save for maybe a few intricate tweaks.

What's really important is that the development team has a patch plan scheduled for balance tweaks (should they be necessary). I could honestly care less how broken the game releases as long as they plan on fixing it over time as new things pop up, especially.

 

[Impmacaque]

I suspect there will be a fairly significant difference in the build we played at E3/Best Buy and the final product released at the end of this year.

I wish I could read Japanese to see how the Japanese fanbase is reacting to the game in its current state, as I imagine Sakurai is much more receptive of their voices and concerns than he is ours. Literally everyone I've spoken to who played the demo (Both at E3 and at my Best Buy, including many people I've never met as well as people who've never played a smash game before) agreed that the game felt off.

 

[Miffa]

I suspect there will be a fairly significant difference in the build we played at E3/Best Buy and the final product released at the end of this year.

I wish I could read Japanese to see how the Japanese fanbase is reacting to the game in its current state, as I imagine Sakurai is much more receptive of their voices and concerns than he is ours. Literally everyone I've spoken to who played the demo (Both at E3 and at my Best Buy, including many people I've never met as well as people who've never played a smash game before) agreed that the game felt off.

Really media wise i've heard mostly good things except a few people not like the 3ds version controls. I did not play ir myself because Aus did not have a demo and the Japanese have not played the game either since they did not have a demo as well.

 

[skcye]

I don't understand this argument against advanced techs, I've read so many illogical post against it that I'm nearly convinced most players who are against it simply haven't had a chance to actually play with them. I'm not a top player, in fact I'm not even a good Melee player, however, knowing/watching people use these tech's motivated me to play. Knowing the game was full of depth, and the ceiling being so high made me strive to play more. I was never able to master hardly any of the AT's in Melee, but that didn't stop me from appreciating, and loving that they were in the game.

With Brawl, I felt like there was such a small ceiling, like there wasn't anything really to strive, or play for. The game has, without a doubt, far less depth than Melee and thus made me take the game less serious, I played it for what it was, a party game, a casual experience. Keep in mind again, I never mastered the AT's in Melee, and consider myself a mediocre to bad player most would even probably consider a casual player, and making your game require less technical skill doesn't make the game any more attractive. In fact, it makes me want to play the game less, and not strive to be better.

I hope so much Sak understands that adding a ceiling to your game, giving players advanced techs to strive for doesn't hurt one bit the casual experience for players. Being a casual player, if you have that friend that takes the time,(my brother was this person), to master these techs just shows you as a more casual player what you can become with some practice, it shows you that the game is something you can invest more time in. All we can do is submit our opinions, and hope that he reveres this opinion more than the opinions of people who perhaps haven't had the chance to play Melee on release, to see the amazing evolution of the game.

The game doesn't NEED melee techs, we don't need wave dashing, not even L cancel. However if they choose not to add these, Nintendo needs to add NEW techs that give the game EQUAL depth. Simply taking techs away and not adding ANYTHING but basic versions of old techs, and a few sprinkled in fairly easy things to pull off just takes from the game.

 

[Miffa]

I don't understand this argument against advanced techs, I've read so many illogical post against it that I'm nearly convinced most players who are against it simply haven't had a chance to actually play with them. I'm not a top player, in fact I'm not even a good Melee player, however, knowing/watching people use these tech's motivated me to play. Knowing the game was full of depth, and the ceiling being so high made me strive to play more. I was never able to master hardly any of the AT's in Melee, but that didn't stop me from appreciating, and loving that they were in the game.
With Brawl, I felt like there was such a small ceiling, like there wasn't anything really to strive, or play for. The game has, without a doubt, far less depth than Melee and thus made me take the game less serious, I played it for what it was, a party game, a casual experience. Keep in mind again, I never mastered the AT's in Melee, and consider myself a mediocre to bad player most would even probably consider a casual player, and making your game require less technical skill doesn't make the game any more attractive. In fact, it makes me want to play the game less, and not strive to be better.
I hope so much Sak understands that adding a ceiling to your game, giving players advanced techs to strive for doesn't hurt one bit the casual experience for players. Being a casual player, if you have that friend that takes the time,(my brother was this person), to master these techs just shows you as a more casual player what you can become with some practice, it shows you that the game is something you can invest more time in. All we can do is submit our opinions, and hope that he reveres this opinion more than the opinions of people who perhaps haven't had the chance to play Melee on release, to see the amazing evolution of the game.

The game doesn't NEED melee techs, we don't need wave dashing, not even L cancel. However if they choose not to add these, Nintendo needs to add NEW techs that give the game EQUAL depth. Simply taking techs away and not adding ANYTHING but basic versions of old techs, and a few sprinkled in fairly easy things to pull off just takes from the game.

Sakurai says Melee had a too high of a skill ceiling in an interview so i would not get my hopes up.

 

[Hitzel]

"Only going by what competitive players think is a terrible strategy when trying to sell a game to the whole world."

Fixed.

More than just the most hardcore minority of players care about base gameplay.

At my job, a few of us were talking about E3 and I explained to them what landing lag was and why people don't want it back in Smash 4.

"When you do an attack and land, your character hits the ground and gets stuck in a pose like *this* or something and can't attack for a split second. It's not very long, but it stops you from being able to follow-up properly after a jumping attack and it may get you attacked for your efforts."

Everyone thought it was dumb and understood why people don't want that. Yeah, this is a "my friends said this!" example but whatever. I've never talked to any sort of gamer who thought that basic actions in a game being sluggish and laggy is a good thing. You don't have to be a tournament player to realize that stuff's not fun and moves being too unsafe is bad design.

I (we?) don't want to make the game into some crazy advanced technical paradise for the 1%. I want the game to be able to hold up under pressure when people actually start getting decent at it. Too many games designed around the philosophy of removing the playstyles of competitive players in sequels without care of the consequences turn into a nightmare when played to win (at almost any level of skill!) because the mechanics left behind demand that players do really boring / one-dimensional things to win. I don't care if your game is a world-class sport or some silly drinking game, you have to design the damn game to avoid these types of pitfalls or it starts to suck because you can't expect that one guy who understands how to win to "play with honor" instead when the way to win absolutely destroys the game. We already know from Brawl that when attacking is all-around unsafe and combos aren't practical, the game slows down too much to be enjoyable by many. If you can't see why lots of people don't want that again, I'm sorry but it is how it is.

*Edit*
Sorry if this came off as a little aggressive, I just haven't had my coffee yet

 

[Impmacaque]

Really media wise i've heard mostly good things except a few people not like the 3ds version controls. I did not play ir myself because Aus did not have a demo and the Japanese have not played the game either since they did not have a demo as well.

I don't know the perspective of the media (I should say, the "old media"); I've only spoken to other gamers for the most part. I have, however, read two articles from prominent sources that I can remember which criticized the game-play for an apparent lack of depth.

What I do know is that youtube is absolutely packed with negative and lukewarm impressions of the game. Many, many popular youtubers have expressed some disappointment in the product they played at E3. I don't know how relevant new media is to Sakurai, but I imagine he's at least heard some of the criticism via his twitter account.

As for the JP fans, they haven't played the game but they've certainly seen it in action.

 

[LancerStaff]

More than just the most hardcore minority of players care about base gameplay.

At my job, a few of us were talking about E3 and I explained to them what landing lag was and why people don't want it back in Smash 4.

"When you do an attack and land, your character hits the ground and gets stuck in a pose like *this* or something and can't attack for a split second. It's not very long, but it stops you from being able to follow-up properly after a jumping attack and it may get you attacked for your efforts."

Everyone thought it was dumb and understood why people don't want that. Yeah, this is a "my friends said this!" example but whatever. I've never talked to any sort of gamer who thought that basic actions in a game being sluggish and laggy is a good thing. You don't have to be a tournament player to realize that stuff's not fun and moves being too unsafe is bad design.

I (we?) don't want to make the game into some crazy advanced technical paradise for the 1%. I want the game to be able to hold up under pressure when people actually start getting decent at it. Too many games designed around the philosophy of removing the playstyles of competitive players in sequels without care of the consequences turn into a nightmare when played to win (at almost any level of skill!) because the mechanics left behind demand that players do really boring / one-dimensional things to win. I don't care if your game is a world-class sport or some silly drinking game, you have to design the damn game to avoid these types of pitfalls or it starts to suck because you can't expect that one guy who understands how to win to "play with honor" instead when the way to win absolutely destroys the game. We already know from Brawl that when attacking is all-around unsafe and combos aren't practical, the game slows down too much to be enjoyable by many. If you can't see why lots of people don't want that again, I'm sorry but it is how it is.

*Edit*
Sorry if this came off as a little aggressive, I just haven't had my coffee yet

Again, I'm not against less lag. But the 1% are the only ones really complaining, and I don't think we'll get any major changes to the final build.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I don't understand this argument against advanced techs, I've read so many illogical post against it that I'm nearly convinced most players who are against it simply haven't had a chance to actually play with them. I'm not a top player, in fact I'm not even a good Melee player, however, knowing/watching people use these tech's motivated me to play. Knowing the game was full of depth, and the ceiling being so high made me strive to play more. I was never able to master hardly any of the AT's in Melee, but that didn't stop me from appreciating, and loving that they were in the game.

With Brawl, I felt like there was such a small ceiling, like there wasn't anything really to strive, or play for. The game has, without a doubt, far less depth than Melee and thus made me take the game less serious, I played it for what it was, a party game, a casual experience. Keep in mind again, I never mastered the AT's in Melee, and consider myself a mediocre to bad player most would even probably consider a casual player, and making your game require less technical skill doesn't make the game any more attractive. In fact, it makes me want to play the game less, and not strive to be better.

I hope so much Sak understands that adding a ceiling to your game, giving players advanced techs to strive for doesn't hurt one bit the casual experience for players. Being a casual player, if you have that friend that takes the time,(my brother was this person), to master these techs just shows you as a more casual player what you can become with some practice, it shows you that the game is something you can invest more time in. All we can do is submit our opinions, and hope that he reveres this opinion more than the opinions of people who perhaps haven't had the chance to play Melee on release, to see the amazing evolution of the game.

The game doesn't NEED melee techs, we don't need wave dashing, not even L cancel. However if they choose not to add these, Nintendo needs to add NEW techs that give the game EQUAL depth. Simply taking techs away and not adding ANYTHING but basic versions of old techs, and a few sprinkled in fairly easy things to pull off just takes from the game.

This. Thank you sir.

 

[Hitzel]

Again, I'm not against less lag. But the 1% are the only ones really complaining, and I don't think we'll get any major changes to the final build.

They are the only ones noticing because they went out of their way to look for it, but they aren't the only people who will like the game more without aerial lag. The people who are really into Smash are going to point things like that out.

I don't think that random people who are playing online will enjoy hitting someone with a jumping move just to get grabbed and combo'd as a reward. It's just not fun. Same for "block strings" or whatever you call them in Smash, I don't think people enjoy feeling like they are getting autopunished every time they try hitting buttons. Things have to be punishable at some point of course, but when everything is way too unsafe it's not fun for anybody as soon as any sort of game knowledge comes into play.

 

[Second Power]

Again, I'm not against less lag. But the 1% are the only ones really complaining, and I don't think we'll get any major changes to the final build.

The 99% are only concerned about content, the 1% concerned primarily with the engine. It's not like each groups' desires are mutually exclusive at all.

 

[LancerStaff]

The 99% are only concerned about content, the 1% concerned primarily with the engine. It's not like each groups' desires are mutually exclusive at all.

No, but the "needs moar Wavedashing" complaints are drowning out the constructive criticism.