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Game Theory: Super Smash Bros TRAGIC Hidden Lore

ChikoLad

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Again, not replying because this seems to be more of an opinion than anything ("I like Game Theory" versus "I don't like Game Theory"), and we've already discussed this in the past.
It's not an opinion, I'm merely telling you that his catchphrase is shallow and meaningless and is not a reflection of MatPat's true feelings on his own theories.

It's not surprising either - 1 million subscribers always comes with a sense of arrogance.
 

Munomario777

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It's not an opinion, I'm merely telling you that his catchphrase is shallow and meaningless and is not a reflection of MatPat's true feelings on his own theories.

It's not surprising either - 1 million subscribers always comes with a sense of arrogance.
Being rude about something doesn't mean it's a theory. A theory is basically a fact that's not 100% proven and can still be disproven. People can believe a theory without it being 100% proven fact. MatPat has every right to believe in his theories; he's the guy who made them. The "opinion" part was more referring to the last paragraph of your post.
 

ChikoLad

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Being rude about something doesn't mean it's a theory. A theory is basically a fact that's not 100% proven and can still be disproven. People can believe a theory without it being 100% proven fact. MatPat has every right to believe in his theories; he's the guy who made them. The "opinion" part was more referring to the last paragraph of your post.
Him believing them isn't the problem - it's him trying to rudely force it down other people's throats that's problematic, especially when his points have been proven wrong and his theories have negative effects on communities. It's obsessive and desperate, and serves no purpose than to try and boost his own ego.

And no, the last part is not opinion either. His theory is 100% wrong, as it is based on things he made up or outright went out of his way to ignore. It has no merits to it, and raises no interesting thoughts about Rosalina or the Mario universe. Rosalina is in no way affiliated with Peach beyond helping Mario save her (and in the Super Mario-kun manga, they also share a positive friendship), and is no way affiliated with Luigi and Mario beyond being their friends and in Luigi's case, being a momentary love interest for Luigi that clearly didn't stick since Luigi's relationship with Daisy is much more prominent.
 

Munomario777

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Him believing them isn't the problem - it's him trying to rudely force it down other people's throats that's problematic, especially when his points have been proven wrong and his theories have negative effects on communities. It's obsessive and desperate, and serves no purpose than to try and boost his own ego.

And no, the last part is not opinion either. His theory is 100% wrong, as it is based on things he made up or outright went out of his way to ignore. It has no merits to it, and raises no interesting thoughts about Rosalina or the Mario universe. Rosalina is in no way affiliated with Peach beyond helping Mario save her (and in the Super Mario-kun manga, they also share a positive friendship), and is no way affiliated with Luigi and Mario beyond being their friends and in Luigi's case, being a momentary love interest for Luigi that clearly didn't stick since Luigi's relationship with Daisy is much more prominent.
Do you have any specific instances where he does do this? I'm interested. I only watch the videos themselves, and that's the only thing I'm judging here.

It's not 100% wrong, nor is it 100% right. Rosalina probably wasn't intended to be related to Peach, Mario, or Luigi. Luigi and Peach probably don't get together at any point. I get that. At the same time, however, there were some things that I think it got right, such as the genetics research; it is likely (but not proven, of course) that someone like Peach + someone like Mario (or Luigi) = someone like Rosalina (I will admit, however, that the handedness bit was pretty mislead). There were also some things I personally found interesting. For instance, I think it's a pretty interesting coincidence that those characters DO share those certain genetic traits (not saying it means the theory is correct; it's just interesting). I also found the castle appearing similar to Peach's Castle in the storybook to be an interesting coincidence (again, not saying it's 100% correct; just saying it's interesting; the castle very well could be that huge home we see Rosalina and the Luma building in the storybook). Whether something is right or wrong is a fact. Whether something interests you is an opinion. I might not find a documentary about the lifecycle of a moth interesting (I haven't actually seen one; I might find it interesting, but the point I'm making still stands), but there's probably someone in the world who DOES find it interesting. If that same documentary was false, then that's a fact. If it doesn't interest me personally, that's an opinion. The same applies to the GT episode. If it's wrong (which I do believe its explanation for Rosalina's origin story is), that's a fact. If it doesn't interest you personally, that's an opinion.
 

ChikoLad

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As I said, he did blatantly say that there was something wrong with anyone who doesn't believe his Rosalina theory. Most other instances are the sort of thing that gets buried in YouTube comments sections of other videos (I recall him and other theorists trying to advertise the theory, as it were, on both the Completionist's and SomecallmeJohnny's Mario Galaxy reviews, by basically trying to spin it off of things the reviewers said in their reviews - in the Completionist's case, it wasn't too bad, since they are friends with him, but in SomecallmeJohnny's video, it was completely unwarranted) and such after a while though. Convention related stuff is word of mouth, but his fans wouldn't say they have problems with his attitude on his theories if there wasn't one to begin with.

Also I believe he communicates thoughts like this on Twitter.

No, the Rosalina theory is 100% wrong:

At the same time, however, there were some things that I think it got right, such as the genetics research
No, because Rosalina is ambidextrous, and he would not accept that. His genetics research failed him.

For instance, I think it's a pretty interesting coincidence that those characters DO share those certain genetic traits
It's not an interesting coincidence, because there is no connection to be made. For starters, genetics research really has no place when talking about cartoon characters to begin with, because any animator will tell you that different rules apply. Game characters are not born by genetics, they are imagined by a designer, and real genetics can only apply to a game with a realistic art style. Therefore, when trying to portray a connection to between two characters in a cartoony game such as Mario, you approach it in different ways. For example, by giving them similar clothes, like Mario and Luigi do - because they are brothers, you need to portray a sense of similarity between them, so you give them matching outfits, as well as a moustache. Similarly, characters are designed to reflect their personality traits. For example, Rosalina is so tall because it is not only associated with ethereal beauty and elegance, it's portrays a sense of power and authourity.

MatPat did at one point say that Rosalina and Peach having similar ears was a connection too, but it isn't - every human bar Wario and Waluigi in the Mario universe has round ears. Even Daisy does. If you're gonna try to use ears as a "genetic link" between Rosalina, Peach, and Luigi, you'd have to try and force a bunch of other characters in there too. Plus, there is no reason why Rosalina can't have a certain eye colour, or a certain ear shape, and even if it did "fit" (which Rosalina does not with Peach and the Mario Bros in this case) in the connection, it doesn't have to mean a relation. Because you'd have to do a lot more than that - people share similar qualities all of the time, while being completely unaffiliated (I can't even count the amount of times I have been told I look like such and such a celebrity and what not). There is no "interesting" coincidence there. Rosalina and Peach share a few VERY vague similarities in appearance, and all are by virtue of being drawn in the same art style. Other than that, they don't even look anything alike.

I also found the castle appearing similar to Peach's Castle in the storybook to be an interesting coincidence
Hyrule Castle looks a lot like Peach's Castle, as do a lot of the other castles designed by Nintendo in their games. It doesn't mean anything. Nintendo just base all of their castles in fantasy games off of the Victorian architectural style.

There is a degree of objectivity to what is and isn't interesting actually, and I have just demonstrated it - sometimes you only find something to be an "interesting coincidence", because you are ignorant to the facts in play.
 

Munomario777

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Replies in quote.
As I said, he did blatantly say that there was something wrong with anyone who doesn't believe his Rosalina theory. Most other instances are the sort of thing that gets buried in YouTube comments sections of other videos (I recall him and other theorists trying to advertise the theory, as it were, on both the Completionist's and SomecallmeJohnny's Mario Galaxy reviews, by basically trying to spin it off of things the reviewers said in their reviews - in the Completionist's case, it wasn't too bad, since they are friends with him, but in SomecallmeJohnny's video, it was completely unwarranted) and such after a while though. Convention related stuff is word of mouth, but his fans wouldn't say they have problems with his attitude on his theories if there wasn't one to begin with.

Also I believe he communicates thoughts like this on Twitter.

Ah, okay. I wasn't aware.

No, the Rosalina theory is 100% wrong:

No, because Rosalina is ambidextrous, and he would not accept that. His genetics research failed him.

That's why I said "I will admit, however, that the handedness bit was pretty mislead" in my post.

It's not an interesting coincidence, because there is no connection to be made. For starters, genetics research really has no place when talking about cartoon characters to begin with, because any animator will tell you that different rules apply. Game characters are not born by genetics, they are imagined by a designer, and real genetics can only apply to a game with a realistic art style. Therefore, when trying to portray a connection to between two characters in a cartoony game such as Mario, you approach it in different ways. For example, by giving them similar clothes, like Mario and Luigi do - because they are brothers, you need to portray a sense of similarity between them, so you give them matching outfits, as well as a moustache. Similarly, characters are designed to reflect their personality traits. For example, Rosalina is so tall because it is not only associated with ethereal beauty and elegance, it's portrays a sense of power and authourity.

I'm aware that cartoon characters aren't actually the result of genetics. I'm saying it's interesting (to me; it's fine if it's not to you) that these characters share certain traits.

MatPat did at one point say that Rosalina and Peach having similar ears was a connection too, but it isn't - every human bar Wario and Waluigi in the Mario universe has round ears. Even Daisy does. If you're gonna try to use ears as a "genetic link" between Rosalina, Peach, and Luigi, you'd have to try and force a bunch of other characters in there too. Plus, there is no reason why Rosalina can't have a certain eye colour, or a certain ear shape, and even if it did "fit" (which Rosalina does not with Peach and the Mario Bros in this case) in the connection, it doesn't have to mean a relation. Because you'd have to do a lot more than that - people share similar qualities all of the time, while being completely unaffiliated (I can't even count the amount of times I have been told I look like such and such a celebrity and what not). There is no "interesting" coincidence there. Rosalina and Peach share a few VERY vague similarities in appearance, and all are by virtue of being drawn in the same art style. Other than that, they don't even look anything alike.

I never said that the genetics (or as much of it as a cartoon can have, anyway) proved anything. I said it was interesting to me personally. There is an "interesting" coincidence here... to some people. It's an opinion. The episode interested me, but it apparently didn't interest you (which I'm fine with; if you don't like it, that's nothing for me to get negative about). That's your opinion.

Hyrule Castle looks a lot like Peach's Castle, as do a lot of the other castles designed by Nintendo in their games. It doesn't mean anything. Nintendo just base all of their castles in fantasy games off of the Victorian architectural style.

Again, I never said it proved or meant anything as to Rosalina's origin (I actually said that the castle in the storybook is likely the one Rosalina and the Luma built in said storybook, if you had actually paid attention to the whole post, which you apparently didn't). I just said I thought it was an interesting coincidence.

There is a degree of objectivity to what is and isn't interesting actually, and I have just demonstrated it - sometimes you only find something to be an "interesting coincidence", because you are ignorant to the facts in play.

"Interesting: arousing curiosity or interest; holding or catching the attention." -Google Search
It aroused my curiosity and my interest, and it caught my attention. It apparently didn't do that for you. It's an opinion. That said, there is a degree of objectivity (X person found Y thing interesting), but whether or not something is interesting to someone is subjective, but you can't just say that something's not interesting (an opinion) and present it as a fact (which was one of your main criticisms on the show, was it not?).
 

ChikoLad

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I actually said that the castle in the storybook is likely the one Rosalina and the Luma built in said storybook
I read that but ignored it because it's also completely wrong and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. That castle was from Rosalina's memories of before she even met the Lumas. It really was just there for decoration in the context of the story, and meant very little. It's never even referred to by Rosalina herself (CTRL + F "castle" in any documentation of the story on a webpage, and you get nothing). The thing she built with the Lumas was the Observatory itself, which became mobile when a Luma turned into a comet to carry it.

It aroused my curiosity and my interest, and it caught my attention.
But only because you lacked objective information.

Something that is objectively interesting remains so even when you have the objective information - for example, whether or not someone finds a game interesting is subjective, but objectively interesting games remain interesting to those who do find an interest in them even after completion, because it's well designed to hold that interest and just to be a fun game.

If you lose interest in something once you find out the facts, then it never really was very interesting. Such is the case with that Rosalina episode.
 

Munomario777

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I read that but ignored it because it's also completely wrong and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. That castle was from Rosalina's memories of before she even met the Lumas. It really was just there for decoration in the context of the story, and meant very little. It's never even referred to by Rosalina herself (CTRL + F "castle" in any documentation of the story on a webpage, and you get nothing). The thing she built with the Lumas was the Observatory itself, which became mobile when a Luma turned into a comet to carry it.
Oh, right. Duh. Yeah, it was probably just a random background detail. I still didn't say it was Peach's Castle, though, which you said I did (unless you meant something else).
But only because you lacked objective information.
I still find the episode interesting now, even though I know the backstory is probably false (it interests more for the "what if" aspect than anything else, as well as some of the side information).
Something that is objectively interesting remains so even when you have the objective information - for example, whether or not someone finds a game interesting is subjective, but objectively interesting games remain interesting to those who do find an interest in them even after completion, because it's well designed to hold that interest and just to be a fun game.
Name something that's objectively guaranteed to interest everyone in the world, then.
If you lose interest in something once you find out the facts, then it never really was very interesting. Such is the case with that Rosalina episode.
It was interesting for the time that you had interest in it. I (and most people when they were little kids) used to be interested by little kids' shows(at least, I'd assume I was if I watched them all the time :p), but I'm not now. They were still interesting to me at the time. What you're saying is like saying that if a car stops moving once it runs out of gas, then it never really moved at all. Things that used to be true in past tense (the car was moving) can be made false in present tense (the car isn't moving) because of some reason (it ran out of gas), but it was still in that past state in the past.
 

ChikoLad

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I still didn't say it was Peach's Castle, though, which you said I did
I didn't. You said it resembled Peach's Castle, and I pointed out how what little resemblance it had was no different to how pretty much any other castle in a Nintendo game resembles Peach's Castle, for architectural theming reasons, so there's nothing of interest there that warrants examining.

Name something that's objectively guaranteed to interest everyone in the world, then.
-Aliens showing up and being communicated with, in a broadcast to the world
-The destruction of the world
-A god showing itself to the human race
-Money

It was interesting for the time that you had interest in it.
I never really had interest in it. I watched it when I had nothing else going on.
 

Zylach

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I'd also like to reply to this video by saying that the ideas presented definitely make me respect this subtle storyline that Sakurai put in the game. What I'm seeing a lot of in the comments is people caring/not caring whether or not the theory is true. When it comes to story analysis like this, it's not a matter of whether it's true or not. Did Sakurai intend this to be his personal narrative in the form of allegory? Maybe, maybe not. What's important is what we, as players and analysts of the story get out of it. Instead of saying, "this is the story of Sakurai," if we look at it as the story of anyone under these circumstances (making a franchise for years, being fed up with the sequel necessity of the franchise, being forced into working on it because it makes big money and people love it even though there are more important things in life), we find a meaningful narrative and message whether it was intentional or not.

It doesn't matter if Sakurai wanted this narrative to come out. The important thing is that this narrative did come out as a result of all the things Sakurai did with the narrative as a whole. Reading this narrative rather than "it's just a kid playing games and there are cool bosses wow..." provides insight into a life run for the continuation of something that one is tired of continuing because one doesn't have control over whether or not one can just stop doing it, the power that sales have over the people that make the stuff that make those sales, and the degradation of an individual starting from the innocence of childhood up through adulthood when one gets stuck in corporate cycles for one's entire life.

The meaning behind this theory, and the reason I like it so much, is that it forces us to think of all of this be it "right or wrong." Looking at it as a story of Sakurai is interesting but looking at it as a human being that can fall into this kind of lifelong situation is when the theory really shows itself as more of an analysis than a theory and the analysis is what really matters. Lingering on the literal translation of the game's scarce narrative has no meaning really. Considering the figurative translation of the game's narrative is where we gain wisdom as observers of the narrative.

*Sorry for the long wall of text, I'm an English major and narrative analysis is my thing :)*
 

ChikoLad

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I think the (Smash Bros) video is fine, but there are certain things that are just too flawed about it for me to give it serious consideration. Mainly, the "links" between the games - there really aren't any, except between SSE and Smash 4 (but those are much more literal and direct).

There's also the missing link of Master Hand being in a Kirby game, which breaks the theories immersion.
 

Munomario777

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I didn't. You said it resembled Peach's Castle, and I pointed out how what little resemblance it had was no different to how pretty much any other castle in a Nintendo game resembles Peach's Castle, for architectural theming reasons, so there's nothing of interest there that warrants examining.
Ah, okay. I thought you meant something else, my bad.
-Aliens showing up and being communicated with, in a broadcast to the world
-The destruction of the world
-A god showing itself to the human race
-Money
What about those things makes it so that it's guaranteed to be interesting to everyone? Those things are more likely to be interesting, but there's no objective guarantee. For instance, someone who wouldn't necessarily find any of these things interesting is an alien.
-"We communicated with a planet. Okay. We've seen it before; nothing interesting here."
-"That other planet got destroyed. Okay. I don't care, honestly."
-"A god showed itself to the human race. Not us, though. Eh."
-"Why would I care about this tiny piece of paper?"
I never really had interest in it. I watched it when I had nothing else going on.
Well, it caught your attention for the ten-fifteen minutes you watched it through. That means you found it at least somewhat interesting (as does the fact that we're discussing it right now).
 

ChikoLad

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What about those things makes it so that it's guaranteed to be interesting to everyone? Those things are more likely to be interesting, but there's no objective guarantee. For instance, someone who wouldn't necessarily find any of these things interesting is an alien.
-"We communicated with a planet. Okay. We've seen it before; nothing interesting here."
-"That other planet got destroyed. Okay. I don't care, honestly."
-"A god showed itself to the human race. Not us, though. Eh."
-"Why would I care about this tiny piece of paper?"
Ignoring the fact that you seem to have completely misinterpreted at least two of the points there, those are entirely different ball games that I am not willing to explain here.

Honestly, I'm annoyed enough as it is with you always dragging things off topic like this - I actually created this thread for the particular Smash Bros Game Theory since it's actually not that bad, not for you to defend Game Theory's worst episodes.

Well, it caught your attention for the ten-fifteen minutes you watched it through. That means you found it at least somewhat interesting (as does the fact that we're discussing it right now).
See, there you go again, talking like you know me.

Just because I'm enrolled in a class, doesn't mean I take interest in it. Let's leave it at that.
 

UltimateXsniper

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I like game theory. It is interesting in my opinion but I will admit that I pretty much always assume they are false. I'll just believe whatever game developers say what they mean. I mean, let's be honest, Nintendo wouldn't go that far on games MatPat talks about and even other game theorists. Not unless they are like "Yup, you cracked our code. Congrats". Let's not forget that you can't apply real life logic into a video game especially nintendo games (Looking at you, link is dead).
 

Munomario777

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Ignoring the fact that you seem to have completely misinterpreted at least two of the points there, those are entirely different ball games that I am not willing to explain here.
Good, I was getting a bit tired of talking about fact vs. opinion.
Honestly, I'm annoyed enough as it is with you always dragging things off topic like this - I actually created this thread for the particular Smash Bros Game Theory since it's actually not that bad, not for you to defend Game Theory's worst episodes.
I came here after the quality of the episodes was brought up, and after I posted my "probably won't post here again; just giving my two cents" post, you quoted it and started this long, drawn-out argument about facts versus opinions. I'm not defending the episode (I've said multiple times that I believe the backstory presented to be false); I'm simply stating my opinion.
See, there you go again, talking like you know me.
I'm going off of information you gave me. You said you watched the whole thing, and you've provided me reasons to believe that you were paying attention (you know quite a bit about it); therefore, I can conclude that it held your interest.
Just because I'm enrolled in a class, doesn't mean I take interest in it. Let's leave it at that.
Correct; it's not guaranteed that you were willing to attend, nor is it guaranteed that you paid attention. However, when you know the ins and outs of something, you at least took some sort of interest (as in, it captivated your attention for you to be able to know about it).

Anyway, I'm done with this. I tried to give my two cents and leave it at that, but it got drawn out into this long argument. Officially agreeing to disagree on this, with a side dish of unwatching.
 

ChikoLad

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I'm not defending the episode
...You explicitly tried to defend it's quality on multiple occasions.

I'm going off of information you gave me. You said you watched the whole thing, and you've provided me reasons to believe that you were paying attention (you know quite a bit about it); therefore, I can conclude that it held your interest.
I watched something out of pure boredom. It does not mean I had a particular interest. Interest =/= holding your attention.

I don't still discuss the episode because it's interesting - I discuss it when loyalist fans of the episodes follow in MatPat's footsteps, bringing up it's "greatness" in my face, and then I have to prove them wrong because misinformation is bad and I'm kinda sick of seeing people buy into it so easily.

Correct; it's not guaranteed that you were willing to attend, nor is it guaranteed that you paid attention. However, when you know the ins and outs of something, you at least took some sort of interest (as in, it captivated your attention for you to be able to know about it).
Again, his loyalist fans like yourself keep bringing it up in my face. Of course it's gonna be fresh on the mind. That, and I sometimes have an involuntarily good memory.
 

Aguki90

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The problem with Game Theory is sometime, they take toooooo seriusly or EXAGGERATED.

Sometime I prefer the theory about 'Autism Kid' than this one.

But Im agreed with one thing. Smash Bros. Take place of a Imaginary Child and Adult, Like in the 64, you see a Kids Bedroom in the intro AND then in Smash four on Trophy board when you take photo, Is a Apartment! Meaniing he Kid is now Adult!

That why Smash bros. has its own Timeline.
That why Smash bros. sometime not make any sense.(Jiggly vs. Ganon, don't make sense...)
That why Smash bros. is a crossover that don't destroy other games timeline. (Smash bros. is not on Part of any timeline, Just Smash bros Timeline.)

I hope the game Keep Living as a Imaginary World so they don't ruin everyone timeline.

Is just a Smashing Theory.
 
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Nintykid

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I think the Smash Lore episode was Okay at best. But like what sonicbrawler said, most of these episodes Matpat makes are just knowingly wrong if someone did the research themselves. His big ego is the main reason I don't watch the videos and after the Mario is Mental episode I was done with game theory.
 

Rueckkoppler

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I know this episode of Game Theory & found it quite entertaining. Then I skipped directly to page #2 of this discussion and right now I have no clue what you guys actually debating on.

But I guess this is just the...

 
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I don't see what's so debate-able about this. They're just theories. I mean, I watch them, and I'm usually interested by them. But I take them with a grain of salt. They're just theories. Meaning that It really isn't anything to take seriously.
 

Dan

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Anyone know the name of the song, or what game it's from at 12:38? Either way, brilliant video worth reviving. I'm 100% under the assumption that Matt is on the money with everything here, no debate.
 
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