Game and Watch beats us out...? </3

[*P*L*U*R*]

Okay so I was playing at a tournament doing friendlies. For the most part, I'm an IC main BUT I play Game and Watch in tournies to if my IC isn't cutting it in doubles, which is the event I prefer to play anyways.

Anyways, I was doing singles friendlies when this one guy came up and picked IC. Anyone that knows me can tell you that I absolutely HATE Ice Climber dittos more than any match-up. I'd rather go against Peach or Marth than another IC user. Since my Mewtwo was bad that day and so was my Young Link, I decided to pick Game and Watch.

The beginning of the match was relatively even but then he grabbed me(D: ) and wobbled me to 200% -> Dthrow Dsmash Dead.

How did I respond, you ask?

cue epic man-voice:

That's the laaaaaast time you ever grab me.

ENGAGE **** MODE! I made a comeback like I've never made before. He didn't grab me for the rest of the match at all. Hell, I don't even think he took another stock.

Well, the point of my story isn't to brag but it's to discuss the match-up. Did I win because my character has the advantage or did I win because I had alot of knowledge about both characters in the match-up and I know how to exploit IC's weakness because I main them?

Let's check it out:

IC:
+
devestating grab game
a good general ground game with the 2nd longest wavedash in the game, quick smashes and good tilts
decent air game with their Bair/Uair/Fair
good crouch-cancelling counters through grabs or Dsmashes
the ability to hog the edge and smash at the same time.

GaW
+
a good anti-ground game in his Dtilt, fast jab, low cool-down Fsmash. Hell, even his aerials can be used to halt ground based approaches, like retreating FAirs/Bairs
Some of the best priority in the game. This guy's hitboxes are almost as dumb as Marth's. Yeah, they're BEEG. HYOOJ, I tell you.
Fair. I can't stress how awesome this move is.
The chute. <3
Aw **** it, his air game in general is just stupid as hell. It's awesome.
Good power on his KO moves
Good range on most of his moves



I think that Game and Watch, when he spaces propertly definitely has the tools to beat IC. In the match I played, I would constantly just focus on keeping him out of my face. He approached with a wavedash, I would retreat a FAir or a Bair into a jab. You can also spam DTilts to discourage them coming on the ground. Multi-hit moves tend to seperate IC really easily, I've noticed that more often than not, Bair desynched IC, which let me Fair Nana off stage into a Chute. If they sheild the Bair, the move usually hits their feet anyways with the grounded hitbox so that's another desynch. I believe that GaW's Uair out prioritizes thier Dair, his Utilt CERTAINLY does. Hell if you're feeling daring, you can try timing an Usmash THROUGH the Dair if you predict it(GaW's head is invincible during the Usmash, methinks) for some early KOs. Most ICs tend to Squall Hammer to recover, when they have both and are going solo. Chef intercepts that easily. But who gives a **** about chef intercepting when your can just chute their ***. ****.

Basically, Game and Watch has the tools to halt alot of their approaches, seperate them, prevent getting grabbed, kill Nana and just generally stay on the outside. That's not to say that all IC has are grabs, they have much more than that. But I think that GaW out-classes IC in almost all aspects of the match-up, which is weird, given both of their tier placements. Maybe the tiers are alot more compressed than I thought.


Sorry guys, I would add more but I kinda have to leave now. I have a date to get ready for. Still, you guys give me your opinion on the matchup.

HAPPY VALENTINES DAY!! <3

 

[Binx]

The thing about GnW is that he isn't quite as fast as Marth, and doesn't have quite the range, so certain things that aren't punishable at all vs Marth, retreating Fairs, become punishable on GnW, if you predict the aerial you can time wavedashes to catch him with grabs, also the timing on dash dancing and grabbing when he approaches with fair is easier as well, also vs his dtilt you still have the same fair option you have vs Marth.

I'd say the match is more even than most people give it credit for, but the thing is, that Ice Climbers grab game is really, really good, and GnW still doesn't have any exceptional options when he grabs Ice Climber, like Marth, so ICs can shield camp all day

IC vs Marth - Marth grabs quickly forward throws into the other climber, continues pressure
IC vs G n W - GnW grabs and quickly gets dsmashed by the climber he didn't grab before he can do ANYTHING.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

dude, this is copy and then pasted thread from the G&W boards. unless i have been looking in the future again. true story

 

[choknater]

Yeah, I've had a lot of trouble with G&W back when I used to play Snap.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

I'll have to go against a GAme and Watch that knows his character as well as I know IC in order to make a final decision. But if I do, I'll probably play GaW dittos, since they're way too fun.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

dude you already posted this stuff in the G&W boards

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

dude you already posted this stuff in the G&W boards

well, yeah. I want the IC forum's opinion on the match too.

 

[Smasher89]

Isn´t IC's dsmash too good in the matchup?, G&W gets KO'd really early and can be beaten easily even without grabs...

 

[PB&J]

down smash ***** gdub but i remember playing dire vulcan and remember i hated gdub's d tilt it ***** qnd kills...i think u won because u knew what to expect

 

[Binx]

You won because you are a better player, the plain hard fact is, that Game and Watch doesn't have any sort of advantage in this match up, both characters range and power are pretty similar, Game and Watch plays vs Ice Climbers the way any character should, by poking and spacing well and being careful, and at the end of the day Ice Climbers are faster, and do more damage and have a much better grab game.

I would like to hear what Wobbles thinks.

 

[Wobbles]

Fun fact, I was reading this thread hoping to learn because I know nothing about fighting GaW. F-air and d-tilt make a pretty big wall to get around, d-air's tough to beat from below, and he has no trouble gimping Nana and edgeguarding with his n-air. Plus d-tilt outranges d-smash and you have to space just right to hit him through it with f-smash.

What little experience I have in the matchup, I know that de-sync'ed blizzards are your friend (aren't they always)?

Again, d-tilt is the big problem, IMO. D-tilt's IASA is 26 frames, comes out on 6 and ends on 13; that means you have to be wavedashing in to punish *before* the move has ended... if you want to pull out a d-smash, then you'd actually want it going before he'd even started or else his shield could come up. You've got a 19 frame window if he tries to d-tilt again and a 17 frame window if he jabs--it's not much. The real issue is that he'd have to be bloody stupid to d-tilt if you were at the range where a WD punish would be feasible. If you play it really close with dash dances and break in with a dash attack, that could work too; the timing is unforgiving though.

This is one of the few matchups I can think of where going to platforms would be advantageous for the IC player, but I don't really know. You want him to go high so he can't d-tilt, but then b-air and d-air become problems as well, and he can poke at YOU with n-air.

So... camp him with blizzards, get a lead, and make him approach blindly? Seems like the winning strategy to me. Again, speaking from a lack of experience.

 

[PB&J]

when i fought dire vulcan it was an annoying match up and the d tilt kills us..but once your inside u can kill him easy...all im saying is the match up aint know walk in the park...but now i will spam f tilt because gdubs shield sux

 

[Kyu Puff]

F-air can at least trade hits with his d-tilt. And d-tilt isn't as dangerous when you're coming from the air; you'd probably end up in the better position after trading. Frankly, though, I don't think it's *that* difficult to bait out his laggy aerials and land punishing grabs that kill him at absurdly low percentages.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I got rocked when I tried to use GaW against Cloudz.

 

[Wobbles]

I guess I just assume GaW players won't be throwing out d-tilts blindly and actually try to use them in positions where it's likely to help. If he's d-tilting when you're in the air above him or you can easily punish with f-air (which has more startup frames than d-tilt takes to become active and end), then you're playing somebody who clearly doesn't pay attention to what he's doing. Unless he assumes that d-tilt is completelyunpunishable, any GaW with experience would be paying attention to your spacing and movements and would use it for zoning and interrupting approaches.

I agree that f-air *would* beat it or trade with it, but it just seems really... inefficient and obvious. If it works for other people though, I can't criticize.

 

[Kyu Puff]

f-air (which has more startup frames than d-tilt takes to become active and end),

What did you mean with this? I'm not as knowledgeable frame-wise, but f-air hits on frame 19, which would be 23 if you include the time it takes to jump beforehand. So theoretically, you could punish his d-tilt on reaction if you had a near perfect reaction time.

Anyways, I do think G&W players will overuse d-tilt, considering it's one of his best tools to separate ICs and beats almost any of your WD approaches. I've only played a few G&Ws myself (and none of them were dire vulcan ), but intuitively, they tend to throw d-tilt around for general spacing and whenever they expect you to approach into it. So instead of trying to punish a whiffed f-air with WD jab or d-smash, try sh f-air because a lot of the time he'll follow it up with d-tilt.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, that's my point; he'd have to d-tilt before you were even doing anything, when you were well out of range. If he's so insistent on just throwing a d-tilt out that he doesn't care where you are, then I agree f-air would work. Maybe if you're just at the edge of d-tilt range and you begin the f-air, then slightly move into his range after the d-tilt ends you'd be able to bait *and* punish, but you really couldn't react to that--you'd need to predict the d-tilt was coming. If he decided to f-smash (another relatively common option at this kind of range), you'd be pretty boned. It just seems really risky and based on the d-tilt being there when it's a bad idea for GaW to use it.

What it comes down to, IMO, is getting in there before he has the chance to put the d-tilt out. Either slide in to punish the f-air during its landing lag with f-smash, trick him into f-airing deep on your shield so you can get the grab, or just not being somewhere where he would want to d-tilt.

That said, you could always just wavedash into the d-tilt on purpose and CC it if you were at a really low percent.

I guess I'd need to try f-airing out in a match though, because I've been horribly wrong about stuff like this before.

 

[Binx]

Kyu if they whiff with an aerial in that range, it should be because the approached with it, and you should be able to get a grab by dash dancing.

If they were stationary and close by, then, as wobbles said its sort of a guessing game, although I'm pretty sure your fair would trade hits with a GnW fsmash as well as a dtilt, so it should be a VERY viable weapon until higher percents where you would die or become edgeguarded because of it. They could also shield, but fortunately they don't have any really strong options against fair, most characters would grab, but GnW's throws are too slow for that.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Kyu if they whiff with an aerial in that range, it should be because the approached with it, and you should be able to get a grab by dash dancing.

If they were stationary and close by, then, as wobbles said its sort of a guessing game, although I'm pretty sure your fair would trade hits with a GnW fsmash as well as a dtilt, so it should be a VERY viable weapon until higher percents where you would die or become edgeguarded because of it. They could also shield, but fortunately they don't have any really strong options against fair, most characters would grab, but GnW's throws are too slow for that.

LOL even if GaW were to sheild, if you space it right, you'll hit him anyways. His shield's sooo bad. and aside from OoS aerials and OoS WD tilts, there isn't much he can do about shield pressure from IC. I guess GaW still has the disadvantage in this match-up but he has to be play against very differently since he can shutdown alot of our approaches.

I guess we have to play really campy and use desynchs a little more?

 

[Binx]

My most played match up is vs Marth, so thats a natural way for me to play =)

that's why I was confused about people thinking that we would have a disadvantage, because I'm used to match that plays the same, only the character is faster with more range and better edgeguarding.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

My most played match up is vs Marth, so thats a natural way for me to play =)

that's why I was confused about people thinking that we would have a disadvantage, because I'm used to match that plays the same, only the character is faster with more range and better edgeguarding.

Well, I was thinking that GaW had a slight advantage. Like a 55-45 or a 6-4 as opposed to MArth's(IMO) like 8-2.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I've never played a great G&W, but if I ever had to play one, I think I'd actually play it more like the Jigglypuff match-up than the Marth one since G&W can't punish epic shield-camping the way Marth can. I'd probably just try to stay a bit out of his fair's range most of the time, randomly wavedash in and shield occasionally, and punish whatever openings I see, probably with fsmash/dsmash/fair instead of grabs (unless wobbling is legal) since I don't know what the heck I'd do to a G&W out of a grab unless he's at reasonably high percentages.

Of course, I have little experience in this match-up and this could fail miserably; this is just how I envision myself playing against G&W.

 

[PB&J]

its no walk in the park..like icy vs yoshi