Future prospects for Ike

[SpiderMad]

SpiderMad, that hitbox data is really useful. I can see how the PMBR adjusted the angles and the hitbox sizes in an attempt to compensate for the loss in power and speed. Where did you find that information?

Thanks. The one with the red cape is 2.1 (actually 2.0 but nothing was changed but up-b reverse grab box, no one still hasn't gotten me a copy of 2.1) and 2.5 is in the green. I'm not certain if you got the two confused, but the concept of the changes can be seen as negative since they were just essentially reducing hit-box sizes around his arms. The concept tries to be positive though, since you've reduced the size of the hitboxes which they made horrible in power so that if you do hit you probably hit with the hilt (even though the hilt boxes are all still the same, they're just not covered or overlapped with the now weaker hitboxes which suck so much you don't want to even hit with unless you need to break out of a combo).
Information is from change log: http://www.smashmods.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=6266
And then more info is Metroid's write-up http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-6016.html

The other bad part of his arm hitboxes being made his worst (as well as smaller), is that it hurts his platform drop game: which was amazing but lots of people like Jolteon didn't even think he had one so he never did a platform drop aerial in his short lived Ike life (he mains TL now). Also the variable 2 frame lag from Brawl being removed hurt platform dropping somehow, as well as his non-charged QD being shorter makes it a little worse to get on far away platforms obviously, and then also the hitlag reducer being removed made it even worse on shield. With platform drop aerials, mostly concerning Up-air, you'd usually only be able to hit with the body hitbox. Fair also like Metroid said had its start and end frames lowered, so it hits less far up and down, so it can't reach through platforms to do this anymore at 0:14.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Ka54zALY0&list=PLovBMkMLex7xhb2XjvWL1l40KnxhgwIrN

The tips of Ike's aerials still have the 1/3 hitlag reducer, but his body hitboxes (the ones that got shrunk) should also have it to so platform drop Up-air isn't completely unsafe on shield.

With all this said though.. It'd be nice to NOT see any changes between 2.5 and 3.0 Ike for the same opposite reason I didn't want any with 2.1 to 2.5: I want the people who enjoy this current character and think he's viable to experience thoroughly that he can't compete.

 

[Oro?!]

I accidentally spent your Ike dollars. Do you mind if you money match my Ike some more so I can get more Mad signed dollars?

 

[Nguz95]

I see what you are saying SpiderMad. I was looking at the angles the hitboxes sent you if you got hit. I could see that the tip was actually horizontal like they said it was. I was confused about the color until I got to the dtilt, which was pretty obviously nerfed, and then I went and looked back at the other ones. I am pretty disappointed about the fair nerf though.

 

[Nguz95]

I spy a dying thread. How do people use the uthrow? Can you hancock like marth? Is it just a chain option against spacies? I find myself using the dthrow and both directional throws a lot more.

 

[Strong Badam]

it combos for a decent while still, and after that it works well as a positional throw. many characters aren't proficient at coming down against a sword user, so you can usually play a reactive chase game against them by abusing the disjoint you can place above you w/ usmash and uair, or just punish their landing with regrab, dash attack, fair, qd attack, etc.

 

[Nguz95]

That's awesome. Thanks for the help. I see what you mean about most characters not being able to handle a sword character. The uair is so good. How do you get the grab to come out faster on the qd? I know there is a 3 frame restriction on jumping, but i've seen metroid get it like right at 3 frames. Is it just a feel thing?

 

[Strong Badam]

the restriction is only 2 frames. i never played ike in 2.1, so when i learned QD stuff i just changed my timing until i did it as fast as possible. note that in 2.5 there ARE some cases where a dash -> JC grab is better than a qd jc grab.

here's the frame data if it'll help

there's a startup animation of 9 frames, this has to happen even if you somehow only press b for 1 frame.
after that, you go into charging. if you aren't holding b still at this point you shoot off. for 2 frames you can't jump. after that you can.

 

[Nguz95]

This is awesome, thank you Strong Bad. I see what you mean about the regular DJ cancel. In close range it would, in fact, make more sense to skip the QD.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I tried to post about this in the 2.5 ike thread, but that thread is long dead. To avoid thread necromancy and to hopefully stimulate some more discussion, I'm starting this here. I'll mostly just quote my last post to start off.

To summarize what I read in the last thread as I understand it: the changes that were made from 2.1 to 2.5 that were not addressing the core issues are:side-b, weight, grab range, fair, neutral-b. The changes that are somewhat up in the air are his recovery changes and being a slow character with close ranges. The needed changes were startup and cooldown on tilts, hitlag on shield, infinite walljumping.

With these in mind, I'm curious to know what direction you'd all like to see Ike go in into the future, because right now, for me, the changes that didn't address his core issues made him underwhelming. I love playing Ike, but that bad feeling I get when I hilt an aerial at kill percentages and they blow it off is... horrible. Yeah, I'm a noob, but even in watching gameplay of actual good players it hurts to see.

So, what would you like to see from Ike in 3.0? What direction should the character take? Is he good as-is or is he pretty objectively less/more powerful than other cast members? Perhaps some discussion on comparing the power of his kit with those of other characters (fox, falco, peach, etc.). Any and all discussion and opinions welcome, let's revitalize this board a little.

I would like to see Ike's movement speed restored. He had good grounded speed in 2.1, and I think reducing that was pretty unreasonable.

Also, if his power must be reduced so much, why not reduce the start-up on some of his normals? This would help him combo a lot better, since he can't just kill in 3-5 hits anymore.

Some people may disagree with the idea of a faster Ike, but with a great deal of his power gone, where's the harm in making him faster?

 

[Nguz95]

I would like to see Ike's movement speed restored. He had good grounded speed in 2.1, and I think reducing that was pretty unreasonable.

Also, if his power must be reduced so much, why not reduce the start-up on some of his normals? This would help him combo a lot better, since he can't just kill in 3-5 hits anymore.

Some people may disagree with the idea of a faster Ike, but with a great deal of his power gone, where's the harm in making him faster?

That would be pretty nice. I actually think that Ike's biggest hurdle is his lack of fast starting combo moves. He doesn't have anything like a sex kick to get himself out of sticky situations. This also means that he can't jist blitz the opponent and try to start crazy combos off the bat. I don't think this a terrible thing since a lot of slower characters are the same (ganon, charizard, etc), but I wouldn't mind seeing a move like his nair come out a bit faster.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

His dash speed might have been nerfed, but he got an increase in his initial dash speed, which basically translates to a better dash dance. So there is some good with that. Honestly why would you want to run when qd gets you where you want quicker. Also he still has a lot of power, its just fair that feels a little underwhelming. With all the space it covers its not really a bad thing imo. Go hit someone with bair and tell me he is slow, and had a good deal of his power taken, cause that move proves both those statements wrong.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

His dash speed might have been nerfed, but he got an increase in his initial dash speed, which basically translates to a better dash dance. So there is some good with that. Honestly why would you want to run when qd gets you where you want quicker. Also he still has a lot of power, its just fair that feels a little underwhelming. With all the space it covers its not really a bad thing imo. Go hit someone with bair and tell me he is slow, and had a good deal of his power taken, cause that move proves both those statements wrong.

So you're REALLY going to tell me reliance on quickdraw for good movement is okay?

You're REALLY telling me a fast back air makes Ike's speed a non-issue?

Lol, okay.

Ike as a whole is underwhelming. He deserves more than he has. He was nerfed far too harshly.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

.....he doesn't need anything, the pmbr did a good job with him. Could you give me a situation where running is a good idea with ike? Because I can guarantee you that most situations you describe, it would be more advantageous to be dash dancing, wave dashing/wave landing, and quick drawing, either using a jc grab, an aerial or a rar aerial, or just wave dashing. Again why would you run? Its like running with jigglypuff, there is barely any reason to do it because he has better means of movement.

It is one move so no not by itself, but it is a good example that proves he still has good power and speed. Ike has a range of moves of varying levels of speed and power. Generally though he is at the lower echelon of speed, that is true. So I can't say he is an overall fast character, but I can say with certainty that he has too many movement options and certain fast attacks to be considered slow.

 

[Strong Badam]

2.6 Ike tho...

 

[GeZ]

I don't know what you guys did to 2.6 Ike but he feels a lot... better... Have you restored some of his old data? Pulled the nerf bus off of him a bit? In any case he seems more solid. A bit more together. Faster. All that jazz.

 

[Strong Badam]

The full changelist will be out in the coming weeks, but there are actually only a few changes from 2.5 -> 2.6 Ike. We got really close in the transition to 2.5 and it only took a few things here and there to get him right for 2.6

 

[Nguz95]

Can't wait to try him out! Often times the small things make all the difference!

 

[Mono.]

 

[GingaBread]

yeah that new faster nair is awesome. plus it's fast enough now that you can use it to space forward and backwards! :D QD>reverse hop nair is too good