Further Gerudo Investigation

[hyperstation]

First, and most importantly, I want to say that I was an anonymous lurker in the Ganon community back through Melee, and only decided to sign up for Brawl so that I might contribute to the furthering of the sickest character in Brawl. On that note, I'm really glad to see that there are a lot of new faces stepping up to push this character into the stratosphere once some heavy hitting ganondorfs left for greener pastures (here's looking at you, Sliq). Every time I sin and think that I might need to start playing another character, this community pulls through with some new tidbit of intel that feasibly changes the entire way I think about and play my favorite character.

Gerudo, murder choke, whatever you want to call it...This is one of many areas of Ganon's game that I've begun to re-scrutinize with a fine toothed comb. I know that Sliq's thread has a some-what comprehensive list/chart of the guaranteed attacks against each character following a gerudo, but honestly, it leaves a lot to be desired. I think all Ganon mains would agree that the choke is one of the greatest improvements to ganon's move set, so I think we owe it to ourselves to REALLY get a grasp on what we might be able to do with this awesome skill.

First of all, familiarize yourself with the section about the choke in Sliq's OP here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164751 . Check out the chart (originally posted by Jekyll, one of my favorite Ganons on the board. Credit where credit's due). This is the base intel with which I want to start.

In my testing, I've found that there are seemingly a lot more follow-ups for the choke than this chart might let on. There are several things I want to test which are not mentioned in the choke write-up.

1. What about dash attack (DA), up-smash, down-smash, forward-smash follow ups? I haven't extensively tested any of these, but in my short testing of DA and f-smash, both seem very viable for certain characters and yield a lot more damage than a jab follow-up.

2. What are possible follow-ups for an aerial choke? We get 3 extra % for an aerial choke, so why not investigate that? If you use the aerial choke 5 times in a match instead of a standard side-B, that's 15%...nothing to sneeze at. I play mostly against a samus main, and, as we all know, one can't do the same follow-up out of an aerial choke as we would out of a standard one. My friend generally attacks on the get up, and I found that if I shield both hits of the attack, I can get a d-tilt instantly. This "combo" yields 24% while the standard choke to jab on samus yields 16%. That's a HUGE difference.

3. Combo potential. Obviously a guaranteed follow-up from side-B is basically a combo, but I almost think of that as one move. That is, you won't miss it. I found that a choke followed by an instant DA puts Samus in good aerial position for an uair. We could do a LOT of investigation into this, especially if DA turns out to be a viable follow-up.​

Obviously, it's a little hypocritical to call Jekyll's hard work on the choke chart into question when my OP here offers little to no new information. My hope is that ultimately, through our collective effort, we might be able to fully unpack EVERY option that one of ganon's greatest moves has to offer. I'm willing to put in a lot of work to get this done, but I'd be lying if I said I could (and would) do it alone. For starters, if anyone is as interested in this idea as I am, post your ideas, the things you think we need to investigate. My list of 3 topics above is probably a pittance compared to everything this talented community of evil lords can put together. So, let's spend a little time collecting our questions about this move so that we might assemble a complete list of the areas we need to investigate before we move forward with this.

 

[:034:]

Look at the FD Testing thread (which, hey, is mine!) for FC -> DA stuff, made by Swoops. Aerial FC is pretty much techchasing only, as you end up with a bit more lag than your opponent.. A few more frames I think, but enough to make your jab/dtilt miss. If you wish to use FC -> DA properly, you'll have to take diminishing knock back into account, as DA is a move that is seemingly more effected by it.

Also, we're Ganons. Rather than asking "Hey, could somebody test this?" or "Let's all test this together" - test it yourself instead. We prefer this.

(really, we do)

 

[hyperstation]

Also, we're Ganons. Rather than asking "Hey, could somebody test this?" or "Let's all test this together" - test it yourself instead. We prefer this.

(really, we do)

Already working on it, chief. Problem is, the best I can do for now is vs cpus and do my best to analyze what get up they're using. My buddy is going to take control of the other characters in the near future to tighten up the testing, and I'll start posting concise results. I'm going to start with high tier characters and work from there.

Listen, I'm not trying to put the work on someone else. One of the main reasons for making a new thread was in order to get all of the ideas that need testing organized. My OP was lengthy and perhaps that part got lost in the text.

Dutchman, I love your thread, and I (we all) appreciate the work you're doing, but it's becoming pretty cluttered...a lot of different things are happening at once in there. Choking is a really complicated topic, and it needs its own thread to reanalyze it's uses and fully unpack it's potential. Once a full gamut of uses/ideas for choking is assembled, we can start to organize all of the testing. And that's ultimately what's needed with this move...organization. But before we can do that, let's just start throwing ideas out there, alright?

 

[Swoops]

Dutchman, I love your thread, and I (we all) appreciate the work you're doing, but it's becoming pretty cluttered...a lot of different things are happening at once in there. Choking is a really complicated topic, and it needs its own thread to reanalyze it's uses and fully unpack it's potential. Once a full gamut of uses/ideas for choking is assembled, we can start to organize all of the testing. And that's ultimately what's needed with this move...organization. But before we can do that, let's just start throwing ideas out there, alright?

Well look through it and pay attention to some of the stuff anyways. We can organize it more in the future but all my Gerudo>DA data that I did is in there. Not really many Ganons know about it, and it's a shame because it kills <100% in most cases. If you want a launcher then look to d-tilt, and don't waste DA power.

Lol gerudo isn't a complicated topic. Gerudo>follow up, gerudo to punish, gerudo>mindgame tech chase, and overall gerudo mindgames. People need to stop revolving Ganon's game around it and figure out how to work it in to a general strategy, which I don't see a lot of people doing. It's definitely a good move, but stop worshiping it. Gerudo>jab/f-tilt/d-tilt/DA/useless quake. That's all there is for guaranteed. How do I know this? Cause I did the frame data, for christ's sake.

Lol, sorry if that came out a little harsh, I'm just frustrated lately with the smash community as a whole. But it might be a good idea to keep this thread up just for simple discussion and tactics. How to work gerudo into your game etc.

 

[hyperstation]

Well look through it and pay attention to some of the stuff anyways. We can organize it more in the future but all my Gerudo>DA data that I did is in there. Not really many Ganons know about it, and it's a shame because it kills <100% in most cases. If you want a launcher then look to d-tilt, and don't waste DA power.

Lol gerudo isn't a complicated topic. Gerudo>follow up, gerudo to punish, gerudo>mindgame tech chase, and overall gerudo mindgames. People need to stop revolving Ganon's game around it and figure out how to work it in to a general strategy, which I don't see a lot of people doing. It's definitely a good move, but stop worshiping it. Gerudo>jab/f-tilt/d-tilt/DA/useless quake. That's all there is for guaranteed. How do I know this? Cause I did the frame data, for christ's sake.

Lol, sorry if that came out a little harsh, I'm just frustrated lately with the smash community as a whole. But it might be a good idea to keep this thread up just for simple discussion and tactics. How to work gerudo into your game etc.

Wow, a real sense of community in the Ganon boards, just like I said in the first line of my OP...Jeez. Swoops, you're one of my favorite Ganons, but not because I like your play style or even think you're a particularly fantastic Ganon, but because of your consistent vigilance in the dissection of his game down to the very FRAME (as you so eloquently, angrily stated above). Surprisingly, if you're not interested in contributing your wealth of technical knowledge, then lay off. There's no need for lashing out because you're "frustrated with the smash community as a whole." Chill. Cut the LOLs and the passive aggressive attitude, it's not a help. You just said that Gerudo isn't a complicated topic yet the the sentence that follows gives 4 broad examples of it's use. Within "gerudo>follow-up" alone, we have more than half a dozen options. That's why it's a complicated topic...it's physical uses are exceedingly varied, and it's mental component is a constant, regardless of the way in which it's used.

Also...worshiping it? Where did that come from? The very reason I want to consolidate data on this move is so that it MIGHT BE MORE USEFUL. As it stands now, it suffers mediocrity due to the general uncertainty that surrounds it.

Don't try to pass judgment on me because I haven't posted here very often or for whatever other reason into which you've deluded yourself. What I'm doing here is called making an effort. If it seems like people don't care about making this a community effort, that's fine, we can let the topic die, but man, you guys are kind of crazy, huh? What's your interest in being here: exposing ganon's potential thus making him a better character or debating in the hopes that you might get a pat on the back?

Any takers here, or are we just going to continue farting at eachother?

 

[Swoops]

Wow, a real sense of community in the Ganon boards, just like I said in the first line of my OP...Jeez. Swoops, you're one of my favorite Ganons, but not because I like your play style or even think you're a particularly fantastic Ganon, but because of your consistent vigilance in the dissection of his game down to the very FRAME (as you so eloquently, angrily stated above). Surprisingly, if you're not interested in contributing your wealth of technical knowledge, then lay off. There's no need for lashing out because you're "frustrated with the smash community as a whole." Chill. Cut the LOLs and the passive aggressive attitude, it's not a help. You just said that Gerudo isn't a complicated topic yet the the sentence that follows gives 4 broad examples of it's use. Within "gerudo>follow-up" alone, we have more than half a dozen options. That's why it's a complicated topic...it's physical uses are exceedingly varied, and it's mental component is a constant, regardless of the way in which it's used.

Also...worshiping it? Where did that come from? The very reason I want to consolidate data on this move is so that it MIGHT BE MORE USEFUL. As it stands now, it suffers mediocrity due to the general uncertainty that surrounds it.

Don't try to pass judgment on me because I haven't posted here very often or for whatever other reason into which you've deluded yourself. What I'm doing here is called making an effort. If it seems like people don't care about making this a community effort, that's fine, we can let the topic die, but man, you guys are kind of crazy, huh? What's your interest in being here: exposing ganon's potential thus making him a better character or debating in the hopes that you might get a pat on the back?

Any takers here, or are we just going to continue this flame fest?

No, you're right the passive aggressiveness definitely doesn't help. Know that I'm not at all passing judgment on you. I'm pretty happy when I see people trying to do something contructive, and i appreciate it. It beats 5 quake threads. But I did contribute the only technical knowledge I had into that thread, I'm not trying to keep anything for myself.

Gerudo is somewhat complicated in the sense of memorization of guarantees. But what I'm trying to say that you have near limitless options with Gerudo, meaning the dissection of the follow ups would be close to futile. I mean with tech chasing you have f-smash,d-smash, u-smash, standards, gerudo, wizard's foot...practically his whole moveset. He has gerudo>guaranteed and gerudo>tech chase/mindgames. I meant gerudo to punish as in using gerudo to punish slightly laggy moves. That's basically gerudo. I'm kind of the opinion that people figure out their own mind games and tech chases but it would be nice for this thread to give tips.

I got worshiping from the fact that people don't underestimate Gerudo, they only over overestimate it. It gets beat out by a lot of things and actually can be punished, so in the end it's best as a punisher.

Again, not passing judgment on you. Though it's hard to discuss something that really has no end to the discussion. You could go on all day about Gerudo options, but I think it's better to figure out how to work it in effectively at high level play. But I will encourage you to go on with the thread and see where it leads...hopefully to some good discussion. Right now though I can't contribute anything cause I got nothin'