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From a design perspective, how do you feel about L-Cancelling?

LovinMitts

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For instance, if they were to make Smash 5 very similar to Melee, bringing back many of the mechanics exclusive to Melee, would you want L-cancelling to be included? Do you feel it is a good design choice? Discuss.





(I didn't make this a poll because I wanted more descriptive answers than L-cancelling is good/L-cancelling is bad)

(This is relevant to a side project I'll maybe start but probably never finish, but hey. Whatevs.)
 

-ACE-

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It allows for a more intricate neutral game and better punishment options, while adding another skill to master. I believe this gives the game itself more depth (the addition of a new skill), as well as the actual game play (allowing for aerials to be preformed closer to opponent and still be safe).

The opposite would be lots of landing lag. Jumping is riskier, aerials must be chosen more wisely, and combos will be less extensive. This leads to players who don't approach as much, as there is no incentive.

So yeah I think it's good.
 
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Why give the option to have more landing lag? It's a perfectly worse choice that should never be done. It just clutters the controls
 

flieskiller

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L-cancel should have an alternate bonus if you don't l-cancel it.

For instance, you could either L-cancel, or not L-cancel and have something else on the attack, like a landing hitbox. This way, the players would have more choices (either less lag or hitbox).

Another example is immunity/armor to grabs/attacks on landing if the player don't L-cancel.

Maybe Melee has been popular for these years because of all the movement options that the players can use. I'm sure having the option to not L-cancel could be an addition, if there is a different reward for the player.

Not all attacks should have a bonus like this, maybe the stronger/slower attacks to help slower characters. Imagine a flame hitbox when Bowser lands, coming from its mouth in front of him.
 
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Flippy Flippersen

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The amount of lag after an l cancel is nice. I feel the lag after an l canceled aerials is the perfect amount of endlag for an aerial. The arbitrary need to press l r or z a certain amount of frames before landing is not. I think L cancel is a pretty terrible mechanic, that being said the rest of melee is pretty nice and l cancel isn't that hard once you get used to it.

I don't think that having an alternative bonus for l cancels like flieskiller flieskiller says would be a fun idea. Combos would obviously be unchanged because you'd still always want to l cancel in your combos but for neutral to potentially get immunity to certain punishes would make trying to go for a punish against certain aerials a lot harder which would could lead to a few theoretical situations I personally just wouldn't want to deal with.
 

PepaCorn

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You don't have to L-Cancel if you don't want to you'll just be able to do much less after landing with an aerial

L-Cancelling is sick, it just allows for way better combos and approaches; It allows you to get more mileage out of your moves if you're good enough to hit them

Benefits for not L-Cancelling would be stupid since missing an L-Cancel is just sloppiness. (L-Cancelling isn't even hard, just takes practice, you end up not even thinking about it) It would be like rage in Smash4 or Little Mac's KO punch, rewarding you for sucking.

I've never heard any complaints about L-Cancelling from anyone unless they suck at it, which is just bad on their part. Imo it is a highly contributing factor to the fast paced gameplay you see in Melee but not Brawl or Smash4
 

GenNyan

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I've never heard any complaints about L-Cancelling from anyone unless they suck at it, which is just bad on their part. Imo it is a highly contributing factor to the fast paced gameplay you see in Melee but not Brawl or Smash4
Well I can do it perfectly so get ready for the complaint bomb: It hurts my hand.

Also it really doesn't add anything to the game. It just makes an arbitrary wall that discourages new players.
 

PepaCorn

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Also it really doesn't add anything to the game. It just makes an arbitrary wall that discourages new players.
Imo it adds a lot of fluidity and combo potential to the game, as a Falco main you wouldn't get as much out of your dair -> shines etc. If you play a lot of Puff you probably wouldn't notice
Also I love the deepness of the game
 
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GenNyan

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Imo it adds a lot of fluidity and combo potential to the game, as a Falco main you wouldn't get as much out of your dair -> shines etc. If you play a lot of Puff you probably wouldn't notice
Also I love the deepness of the game
It adds nothing that wouldn't have been achieved if they had just gave everybody less landing lag by default. Complexity =/= depth
 

PepaCorn

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Complexity = <3
It's true that it adds nothing to the game if every character were to have their L-cancelled lag as their default. But as it happens, they don't
It isn't like L-cancelling is even hard to do, it just adds one more layer of skill to the game that's all, if anyone hates it that much then get 20XX and turn auto-l-cancels on
 

LovinMitts

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Complexity = <3
It's true that it adds nothing to the game if every character were to have their L-cancelled lag as their default. But as it happens, they don't
It isn't like L-cancelling is even hard to do, it just adds one more layer of skill to the game that's all, if anyone hates it that much then get 20XX and turn auto-l-cancels on
You're completely missing the point my this thread, bud. It was more about would you include L-cancelling in an offical sequel to Melee if you had the choice. Do you think it's a good design choice?

Also on the auto L-cancel thing, that's completely pointless since you can't do that at a tournament.
 

-ACE-

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It also introduces tactics that cause your opponent to miss the cancel to open up new punish options.

Without the ability to cancel the lag to some considerable extent, it all boils down to the amount of landing lag. Imagine lagless landing vs 20 frames mandatory lag. One is crazier than melee and one is most likely much campier than brawl.
 

PepaCorn

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You're completely missing the point my this thread, bud. It was more about would you include L-cancelling in an offical sequel to Melee if you had the choice. Do you think it's a good design choice?
I love L-Cancelling and would rather play original Melee than the sequel if they left it out
Sorry I thought you would be able to tell that I like L-Cancelling
 

Flippy Flippersen

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I love L-Cancelling and would rather play original Melee than the sequel if they left it out
Sorry I thought you would be able to tell that I like L-Cancelling
Cause pressing that extra button just makes aerials so much more fun.

I personally don't have any real issues with l cancel but seeing how it apparenlty hurts at least one person to consistently do it I'd rather have lag halved and l cancel removed for a melee sequel just cause I'd be able to play someone who would otherwise have to take a break for his hands longer.

Then again I don't believe in the added value of potentially making someone miss an l cancel by shield angling or random needles on the ground just on the merit of l cancel being a 7 frame window.
 
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What if in custom controls, you could set the effect of l canceling to manual? Just a compromise of the 2 sides I just now thought of
 
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GenNyan

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What if in custom controls, you could set the effect of l canceling to manual? Just a compromise of the 2 sides I just now thought of
Thats a feature in Project M, but its illegal in tournament. The main problem is that people are of the opinion that "I had to learn L-cancelling, so everybody else should too."
 

Sieghart

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The idea of having to press a button to cancel half your lag is stupid. There's no reason not to do it and there's no good reason for messing it up. The only reason people think it's a good idea is because it's already there and they've been forced to do it for years if they wanted to be competitive. If landing lag was halved by default and someone suggested we double it and add an arbitrary button press instead everyone would laugh and call them stupid. From a design perspective, and I say this as someone who takes game design very seriously, arbitrary skill floors like L-cancelling should only exist with a damned good reason or an offer of some added dynamic. (See:
)
 

-ACE-

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The idea of having to press a button to cancel half your lag is stupid. There's no reason not to do it and there's no good reason for messing it up. The only reason people think it's a good idea is because it's already there and they've been forced to do it for years if they wanted to be competitive. If landing lag was halved by default and someone suggested we double it and add an arbitrary button press instead everyone would laugh and call them stupid. From a design perspective, and I say this as someone who takes game design very seriously, arbitrary skill floors like L-cancelling should only exist with a damned good reason or an offer of some added dynamic. (See:
)
No, that's not the only reason. As I said before causing your opponent to miss an L-cancel is a thing that adds depth.
 

PepaCorn

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Cause pressing that extra button just makes aerials so much more fun.
I'm unsure if you're being sarcastic but to me hitting an L-cancel rather than landing without doing it with auto-l-cancel on does feel really good
What if in custom controls, you could set the effect of l canceling to manual? Just a compromise of the 2 sides I just now thought of
This would just be unfair for players who didn't use it, I get that it hurts some peoples hands. My hands ache sometimes too but I'm not complaining and I wear wrist supports etc.
No, that's not the only reason. As I said before causing your opponent to miss an L-cancel is a thing that adds depth.
I agree that it occasionally opens up more chances for punishment. But as I said before to me that's not the only way it adds depth, it's just another skill to master. Melee is clearly a very hard and technical game. L-cancelling fits with the other technology perfectly

Also to me the argument that they could have just gave them less landing lag to begin with is stupid. Certain characters, such as Fox and Falco, basically don't have to wait at all to move after L-cancelling. This seems like it would be slightly more overpowered than some people already say it is, since you don't have to work for it at all. At least with L-cancelling this evasiveness comes as a reward for being sick rather than a given.
 
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Flippy Flippersen

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I'm unsure if you're being sarcastic but to me hitting an L-cancel rather than landing without doing it with auto-l-cancel on does feel really good
It was sarcasm. I don't think l cancel is as much of a skill as it is just a thing. I mean new players don't l cancel cause it isn't muscle memory yet but after you played like a month (maybe a few iunno) it just becomes muscle memory and anyone with any chance of placing in a tournament doesn't actively have to think about it. All l cancel does force new players to learn something arbitrary whilst they could learn something else.

Also fox and falco require enough buttons for me to say that them not having to use l cancel would for any technical fox not have a relevant reduction in button presses and he'd still have an insane execution.

I dislike most of the arguments for l canceling cause they're either "It's mad skillz yo u just sux" Or if you l cancel wrong someone can maybe make you miss an l cancel with shield, ic shenanigans or needles. (if the l cancel window wasn't as huge as 7 frames this would actually be a point but if you l cancel on the I think 4th and onward frame for normal shield angle (don't quote me on that it's basically somewhat late) you just l cancel regardless of shield angle or needle (maybe some double ic shield angle stuff would be an exception to this but I don't think you can angle both ic shields differently at the same time)

I personally think the only argument for l cancel being something we have to deal with is cause vanilla melee is the most accessible melee and since l cancel is in vanilla melee we just have to suck it up. For any hypothetical mod or sequel it's a dumb mechanic.

After this post I think anything I'll say will just be repeating this post so I'll prolly make this my last post on this thread.
 
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Sutekh

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I like the mechanic, it does add depth the the game. It creates more separation between good and bad players, because the good players that can L-cancel more consistently are harder to punish and are able to combo a lot easier. It just helps create more interaction between the players, and it gives the opponent an opportunity to escape from a combo if the attacker makes a mistake. If everyone had the reduced lag on landing automatically, you wouldn't have to be as skilled to overwhelm the opponent with your speed, and there wouldn't be as many levels of competition as we have now.
 
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I'm unsure if you're being sarcastic but to me hitting an L-cancel rather than landing without doing it with auto-l-cancel on does feel really good
To me, not having to L cancel feels better. Have you ever played a fighting game? Landing lag is usually (close to) 0 frames which in my opinion feels nice. The same goes for playing as Peach (floats make aerial landing lag always 4 frames)

This would just be unfair for players who didn't use it, I get that it hurts some peoples hands. My hands ache sometimes too but I'm not complaining and I wear wrist supports etc.
It would be fair if someone willingly chooses to use manual l canceling. It'd be like choosing Roy instead of Marth, in a sense

I agree that it occasionally opens up more chances for punishment. But as I said before to me that's not the only way it adds depth, it's just another skill to master. Melee is clearly a very hard and technical game. L-cancelling fits with the other technology perfectly
"not the only way, "just another skill to master". That doesn't seem like it adds much

Melee seems like it's clearly a very easy game. Any casual gamer can pick it up and have a clue about what they're doing. What is your exact definition for what makes a game hard? There are technical characters though, so it can be a technical game (Fox, Falco and Ice Climbers are technical, whereas Peach, Marth and Jigglypuff don't need much)

How does l canceling fit with the other tech perfectly? Tell us an example

Also to me the argument that they could have just gave them less landing lag to begin with is stupid. Certain characters, such as Fox and Falco, basically don't have to wait at all to move after L-cancelling. This seems like it would be slightly more overpowered than some people already say it is, since you don't have to work for it at all. At least with L-cancelling this evasiveness comes as a reward for being sick rather than a given.
What if Fox and Falco were bad characters? The effect of l canceling being automatic would end up balancing the game, mostly at lower levels. Also, Fox and Falco are pretty fun characters. They have good approach options. Aggressive strategies are more fun than campy ones to most gamers
 

PepaCorn

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To me, not having to L cancel feels better. Have you ever played a fighting game? Landing lag is usually (close to) 0 frames which in my opinion feels nice
Yes I have played I fighting game, the reason for the reduced landing lag in traditional fighters is probably because they revolve much less around aerial attacks and moving fluidly across larger areas. The technical ability in those fighters lie in executing the moves, which are usually grounded.

Also I'm a player that likes to press a lot of buttons.
Melee seems like it's clearly a very easy game. Any casual gamer can pick it up and have a clue about what they're doing. What is your exact definition for what makes a game hard?
My exact definition for what makes a game hard would not apply to every game, you can't group every game into one category. In my opinion what makes Melee hard is a requirement for high knowledge of the game such as character and move properties, technical ability, good mind games etc. You can't really say that a casual would have a clue, since they would probably play it in a very different way to a competitive player. If you pitted a person who played the game for a single day against one of the gods, I'd be very surprised if they took a stock.
How does l canceling fit with the other tech perfectly? Tell us an example
A lot of tech in Melee revolves around movement options, such as dash dancing, wavedashing, moonwalking and so on. By reducing the set lag of a move, L-cancelling allows the player to move out of lag much quicker, therefore increasing the fluidity of the gameplay. As do the other techniques stated above.
Aggressive strategies are more fun than campy ones to most gamers
I never mentioned camping I said evasion. In hindsight I should have replaced that word with speed. Many more combos wouldn't work if the player was not able to reduce the characters landing lag (Don't make the argument that they could reduce the standard lag of the move, because as it happens the set lag does exist. If moves had the halved lag already then L-cancelling could just allow people to quarter it) If Fox couldn't reduce the landing lag on his dair from 18 to 9, then people could escape drill shine. If the lag was already at 9 then the drill - shine would be totally free, and take no skill at all (Even though L-Cancelling that isn't hard)
 
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Sieghart

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Also I'm a player that likes to press a lot of buttons.
This doesn't help your case much. It was pretty obvious already, though.
A lot of tech in Melee revolves around movement options, such as dash dancing, wavedashing, moonwalking and so on. By reducing the set lag of a move, L-cancelling allows the player to move out of lag much quicker, therefore increasing the fluidity of the gameplay. As do the other techniques stated above.
There are many glaring fundamental differences between L-cancelling and the other things you listed. One that's hard to miss is that they all directly influence movement in some way (ie, you actually move). The fact that they all make the game more fluid is pretty insignificant seeing as almost every part of Melee contributes to the state (in this case fluidity) of the game itself. That's generally the goal when designing a game. Each and every part is meant to contribute to a cohesive whole.

Blatantly obvious things aside, everything you just said is a nonissue seeing as the result would be the exact same if landing lag was half of what it is now by default. You seem to like ignoring such an obvious deterrent to your seemingly infallible viewpoint. I assure you that's not a good look. Some might even say it's a sign of some sort. What do I know, though?
Many more combos wouldn't work if the player was not able to reduce the characters landing lag
I'm getting a bad feeling...
(Don't make the argument that they could reduce the standard lag of the move, because as it happens the set lag does exist. If moves had the halved lag already then L-cancelling could just allow people to quarter it)
Oh, here we go again. Do you realize how stupid it is to tell someone you're arguing with not to make an argument? I mean, who do you think you are? The fact that set lag does indeed exist in reality is wholly beside the point. Trying to bar theory from a fundamentally theoretical debate only goes to show how misguided your means of "arguing" actually is.

It's heavily implied, and probably said outright by now, that if lag was half of the present lag by default L-cancelling wouldn't exist by extension. That's kind of the point. One might even call it a big part of the crux of the argument against you. Trying to wish it away now doesn't prove your point, it just makes everything coherent you've said so far look bad in retrospect.
If Fox couldn't reduce the landing lag on his dair from 18 to 9, then people could escape drill shine.
Obvious is obvious. You seem to be carrying on under the assumption that someone would be stupid enough to drop half of their clearly effective argument just because you said so. Life doesn't work that way and neither does debate.
If the lag was already at 9 then the drill - shine would be totally free, and take no skill at all (Even though L-Cancelling that isn't hard)
It would only be free if you just decided to ignore the rest of the match that led up to someone actually getting a drill shine, all the play and counterplay included, as well as the actual act of drill shining. Even assuming we did just ignore all of that, why is the skill or lack thereof found in drillshine important? Why do we need to make things harder than they need to be? We've already got hitlag changing timings on hit and SDI affecting the possibility of followups. There's plenty of blatantly skillful back and forth to be found in the realm of footsies, combo creativity, consistency, matchup knowledge, and so on. How can you compare such important facets of this beautiful game to something as paltry as the need to press L to halve landing lag rather than just letting it be that way by default? It's trivial.

If you intend on trying to prove you're right I'd advise you to stop avoiding or pushing aside parts of people's arguments. Argue or concede. It's a slippery slope, and calling you out on it is a very effective means of arguing against you.
 
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Fashion

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I think it is easiest to view this question from the balance and design approach of vanilla Melee, as that is the only thing we really have to go off of for a hypothetical Melee sequel, so fast-fallers and aggressive characters like Fox would be generally where they are currently in the meta in this scenario. And I think aggressive and fast play is one of the defining characteristics of Melee. Things would drastically change, however, if say... floaties were the predominant force in the top tier of the game.

Under these conditions, I think it would be unwise to assume that removing L-canceling, and having reduced landing lag would make the game strictly better. Here is my reasoning for that.

It would be impossible to deny that having a higher physical requirement for a character makes it harder to play. The more buttons you have to press, the more time you need to put into practicing tech and developing muscle memory. All other things being equal, the character that requires more inputs is more difficult.

Most tech related to L-canceling (SHFFLing and shield pressure) as many people have pointed out, are not terribly difficult once enough practice has been put in. But in the context of tournaments especially, there can be tons of variables that influence how consistent you are. Of course, the practice required to reach this level is a very real and daunting part of learning to play Melee at a competitive level. I personally believe this to be a good thing, but more on that later.

Fox and Falco, being the most physically demanding characters in Melee, are already a dominant force in tournaments, and will be for the foreseeable future. Compared to Marth, or say Peach, how many aerials are you L-canceling per match as a spacie? Every character that needs to L-cancel their aerials (i.e. all of them except G&W, wah-wah) is going to benefit from automatic L-canceling, but how much more so would spacie players benefit by not having that extra physical demand? In one set, or two, this may not make a huge difference, but I feel it would be short-sighted to not consider the long-term consequences of removing L-canceling. The longer a tournament goes on, and the more matches you have to play, the more the game takes a physical tole on the player. and I don't think this is bad. Yes, in a vacuum, people generally do not mess up their L-canceling, but it doesn't mean that L-canceling takes no skill. Every L-cancel is a bit of energy taken from you as a player and diverted to that action. And as we have certainly seen from this weekend's Smash Summit, one mistake can cost you a stock or even a game.

Just like with everything in Melee, you make choices and sacrifices when deciding what character to play and how to play them. What do you value more as a Marth player, neutral game or punishes? What do you value more as a Fox player, style or optimization? All of the decisions you make on how you develop as a player reflect what's important to you, and how you are going to handle interactions with other types of players. And I believe deciding how much of a physical requirement you want in the character that you play is a very relevant thing. In the top 8 of the tier list alone there is a wide spectrum of technical requirement. Fox is already almost universally considered the best character in the game. Now compare Fox's physical requirement to Sheik's. How much do you think the Fox player will benefit from automatic L-canceling compared to the Sheik player, assuming equal skill level? I personally wouldn't want to live in a universe where shield pressure required 1/2 the normal amount of button presses. Even if the shield pressure is almost always executed correctly, the more matches the Fox player has to play, the more difficult his task.

Ultimately, it comes down to how you view Melee, and Smash in general, compared to Esports. If you are a casual player, just hanging out and playing Melee with your friends, no aspirations to play at tournaments or to develop on a truly competitive level, then L-canceling probably matters very little to you. But the competitive scene is a bit of a different scenario.

Esports are literally electronic sports. That seems obvious, but it often is taken for granted. The main goal of the Esports movement, it seems to me, is to get the players of the various games (SC, DotA, Melee, CS:GO etc) to be taken seriously as athletes, which they most certainly are. Chess is not an Esport. I mean... obviously, but even if it was played on computers it wouldn't be. It's a purely mental game. It is certainly no less competitive for this, of course, but the very nature of electronic sports implies a physical component. And I think preserving this technical aspect of Melee, and Esports as a whole, is what separates these games from the wider array of competitive gaming, be it on a board or a computer.

Every sport has it's demands that it places on its participants. Runners blow out their knees. Boxers get concussions, or broken noses. Football players get concussions, torn hamstrings, you name it. Basketball players... more bad knees and such. The only catch is these people make a lot of money doing what they do, so we generally don't even question it. And those people wouldn't be making the kind of money they do if the sports they played weren't difficult and demanding and often required incredible sacrifices for great accomplishment. So the real question is, how do we as a community view the future of Melee as an Esport? Leffen said recently in the HTC Rivals video, that Melee is one of the few games to have survived almost solely on its game mechanics. I do believe a part of this is due to how difficult the game is to play, both physically and mentally. It drives people to want to improve. As spectators we can see the demand it places on its top players, and what it takes to achieve greatness.

Difficulty of execution is a very important component of traditional sports, and of Esports by extension. Half of the Olympic games are purely physical tests, and no one bats an eye at this. Why can't Melee, at least partially, be about testing who hits buttons the quickest, and most consistently? If you happen to be on the other side of the fence, and want Smash to be mostly a mentally focused game, then I'm not sure if there is much of a discussion to be had. You want something different from this game than I want, and that's OK.

At the end of the day, every sport is a series of arbitrary rules designed to make completing some task unnecessarily difficult. We kick the black and white ball all the way down a huge field into a net that has a dude standing in front of it, and he tries to prevent that, and gets to catch the ball with his hands, but we don't, and also knocking people down, in very specific ways, is totally fine. Yes, this is a gross over exaggeration of soccer, and the rules all work together to create a cohesive experience, but only in the context of assuming that soccer is the experience we want. These rules probably don't seem very fun to you if you want to play Tennis.

I think in the context of Melee, or an essentially Melee-esque sequel, L-canceling is fine, as the most physically demanding characters to play are also theoretically the best. I can see the argument being made that from a video game design perspective, L-canceling is essentially arbitrary which does not depth, but I don't personally want Melee to just be a video game, and I think this context has a lot of impact on the discussion.

edit: I clarified some wording.

As a side note... I think an argument could be made for Melee actually being one of the competitive video games closest to a tradition sport experience. So much of how your character acts is dictated by how you play the game physically, and how you choose to interact with the controller. With Melee being primarily an analog game, there is tons of room for personality both in play-style and general movement choices. It might be interesting to see some sort of four-way graph type deal that analyses where different Esport games lie in regard to physical vs mental demand, with something like 100m dash and chess representing the two traditional extremes.
 
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PepaCorn

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It was pretty obvious already, though.
That is not something I'm ashamed of, I find the most fun in technical play.
Blatantly obvious things aside, everything you just said is a nonissue seeing as the result would be the exact same if landing lag was half of what it is now by default.
Yes I see this point. Obvious is obvious. However in vanilla Melee the game that we play, the landing lag in the game is set to a higher amount, therefore the mechanic of L-cancelling allows people to reduce their lag. In any situation where there is landing lag, if L-Cancelling was an option, there would be the option to reduce it.
I assure you that's not a good look. Some might even say it's a sign of some sort. What do I know, though?
From what I read, that served no purpose to your overall argument. This is unnecessary and focuses on picking apart me as a person rather than the argument I have delivered. Many politicians are rebuked for this.
Oh, here we go again. Do you realize how stupid it is to tell someone you're arguing with not to make an argument?
I admit that telling someone to not make an argument is stupid. I just worded it incorrectly, I was trying to say even if the current set lag was halved, L-cancelling could still exist to further reduce it. If a Melee sequel was made however the standard landing lag was reduced then L-cancelling could still be implemented almost completely remove it from certain moves.
Obvious is obvious. You seem to be carrying on under the assumption that someone would be stupid enough to drop half of their clearly effective argument just because you said so. Life doesn't work that way and neither does debate.
This is obvious yes, however it's true. I was not trying to inform, but just use this as evidence of my point, this combo would not be available without the reduced lag. The opposing argument that the lag should automatically be reduced is later addressed however you separated the point.
It's a slippery slope, and calling you out on it is a very effective means of arguing against you.
It is clear that you have done this when responding to my post. Several of your quotes separate certain groups of information from each other, such as the statement about Fox's drillshine, the whole 'Obvious is obvious' thing separates one point into two parts, as if I were trying to provide information on the game. This was not the intention. The goal of that was to show that certain links would be unavailable if lag were uncancellable, and arguably too easy if the lag reduction was automatic.
It would only be free if you just decided to ignore the rest of the match that led up to someone actually getting a drill shine, all the play and counterplay included, as well as the actual act of drill shining. Even assuming we did just ignore all of that, why is the skill or lack thereof found in drillshine important?
I don't know about you, but I don't find landing one drill too hard. A properly spaced drillshine at the edge could lead to an edge guard opportunity and kill. This luxury I feel should at least come at a price (And not a large one at that, I think someone stated earlier that it takes around a month to learn L-cancelling, however with today's resources such as 20XX and the huge bank of information out there, I think it should take around a week. At least it did for me)

Sieghart Sieghart you gave a very good response, although I feel unnecessary in some areas, such as the 'sign of sort' comment, however my opinion is unchanged. L-Cancelling is the bomb. As you said Melee is beautiful and I have almost no complaints about it's mechanics.
 
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Sieghart

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From what I read, that served no purpose to your overall argument. This is unnecessary and focuses on picking apart me as a person rather than the argument I have delivered. Many politicians are rebuked for this.

The intent was not to pick you apart as a person, that's why I did not insult you directly. I insulted your argument, or at least the way it came across prior this post where you correct it. No offense, but for all intents and purposes I do not think of you as a person within the realm of this discussion. You are what you say as far as I'm concerned. If I knew you personally we probably wouldn't be having this conversation at all, we'd be playing some good Melee.

This is obvious yes, however it's true. I was not trying to inform, but just use this as evidence of my point, this combo would not be available without the reduced lag. The opposing argument that the lag should automatically be reduced is later addressed however you separated the point.

I separated the parts so that my responses made more sense. You addressed what I said later, yes, but only under the assumption that the opposition conceded that point. In my case this was untrue. I was not trying to ignore any part of what you said in that regard.

It is clear that you have done this when responding to my post. Several of your quotes separate certain groups of information from each other, such as the statement about Fox's drillshine, the whole 'Obvious is obvious' thing separates one point into two parts, as if I were trying to provide information on the game. This was not the intention. The goal of that was to show that certain links would be unavailable if lag were uncancellable, and arguably too easy if the lag reduction was automatic.

The overall intent is to make my response seem more conversational. I find it helps with understanding properly, assuming the other person doesn't misinterpret anything. Alas.

I don't know about you, but I don't find landing one drill too hard. A properly spaced drillshine at the edge could lead to an edge guard opportunity and kill. This luxury I feel should at least come at a price (And not a large one at that, I think someone stated earlier that it takes around a month to learn L-cancelling, however with today's resources such as 20XX and the huge bank of information out there, I think it should take around a week. At least it did for me)

Never meant it was particularly hard. Just that it isn't entirely devoid of skill.

Sieghart Sieghart you gave a very good response, although I feel unnecessary in some areas, such as the 'sign of sort' comment, however my opinion is unchanged.

Like I said, conversation. I thought it was funny at least, maybe at your expense in retrospect but somethings gotta give, eh? Anyways, it seems you've mended the unreasonable parts of your original post enough that I feel what you mean now is a reasonable opinion. Note that my feeling otherwise is the only reason I bothered to say anything in the first place. You weren't inherently wrong as far as I'm concerned.
 

SAUS

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I agree with Sieghart (and the general idea that L-cancelling is not good game design). The input for L-cancelling is basically just clutter to make the game harder for newer players.

Take a new player and tell them to short-hop drill fast fall with Fox. They will literally fail 100% of the time. Short hop with Fox is already so hard. The fast fall is hard. The amount of buttons is hard. Then they have to L-cancel it. That's not even getting into timing the shine so that it connects while also controlling your jump so you land where you want to. That's not even considering the waveshine you do after. There are enough buttons in melee.

I think if L-cancelling was never a thing (and landing lag was always as though the move was L-cancelled), no one would miss it. There are so many more beautiful mechanics in the game. Most notably, all the movement options are super fun to use and allow for a lot of creativity. They are also well balanced with the other mechanics in the game (such as shielding greatly limiting your movement options).
 

Jenna Zant

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I had an idea, that, when you l-cancel, it increases staling on the aerial by a small amount, to give not-l-canceling an incentive.
 

GenNyan

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I had an idea, that, when you l-cancel, it increases staling on the aerial by a small amount, to give not-l-canceling an incentive.
Nah, thats too broken. I could stale whatever move I wanted between stocks to get stupid combos. And staled aerials in general will benefit many characters or not affect them in the slightest. And people would still need to L-cancel pretty much every time that they actually hit their opponent to continue their combo or get out of range faster.
 
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EthereaL

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Two things.

1. L-cancelling is almost an absolutely bad choice in the game. If all moves were reduced in lag by default, it would remove a barrier for technical proficiency.

2. It DOES add in a mix-up game (with shield-tilting, multiple character hits, needle hits). In other words, you can punish people for failing at something, and you can control in certain situations their L-cancel timings to make it harder or easier. This adds depth.

The question is, is the depth added by these micro-interactions worth the entry barrier to general Melee?

In other words, what makes a game "good"? Why can we not simply have frame-perfect shield pressure macro'd to our controller? Frame-perfect multishines? After all, it's just a technical barrier.
 

Delta Chae

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Nah, thats too broken. I could stale whatever move I wanted between stocks to get stupid combos. And staled aerials in general will benefit many characters or not affect them in the slightest. And people would still need to L-cancel pretty much every time that they actually hit their opponent to continue their combo or get out of range faster.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure stale moves only affects the damage output of an attack in Melee and not the knockback. It's in Brawl that the knockback as well as damage was reduced.
 

GenNyan

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure stale moves only affects the damage output of an attack in Melee and not the knockback. It's in Brawl that the knockback as well as damage was reduced.
Nah you're right, I got it mixed up (If only my mixups were that good when I was actually playing, hehe). Though I still don't think that increasing staleness would be enough of an incentive to deter usage of L-Cancels at all or really add any strategy to it.
 
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The reason 64 and Melee has this aerial landing lag canceling mechanic is very likely because the devs wanted folks (read super casuals) to be able to quickly get their panic shields up after whiffing an aerial. I am basing this assumption off of the fact that, in both games, the buttons used to Z/L-cancel are the exact same buttons used to shield
http://web.archive.org/web/19991117180837/http://smashbros.com/moves_advattacklanding.html

It's not a glitch or anything else. Ever since Smash 64, it was intended to reduce landing lag to enable players to act sooner after an aerial

Yes I have played I fighting game, the reason for the reduced landing lag in traditional fighters is probably because they revolve much less around aerial attacks and moving fluidly across larger areas. The technical ability in those fighters lie in executing the moves, which are usually grounded.
It depends on the fighting game. Street Fighter, for example, is very ground focused while games like Guilty Gear and MVC2 have a lot of aerial movement and combat. Those 3 games have (near) 0 landing lag

Also I'm a player that likes to press a lot of buttons.
Also, I'm a player that doesn't like to press a lot of buttons

My exact definition for what makes a game hard would not apply to every game, you can't group every game into one category. In my opinion what makes Melee hard is a requirement for high knowledge of the game such as character and move properties, technical ability, good mind games etc. You can't really say that a casual would have a clue, since they would probably play it in a very different way to a competitive player. If you pitted a person who played the game for a single day against one of the gods, I'd be very surprised if they took a stock.
Requirement for what? For casual level, Melee doesn't take anything beyond intuition and using your 2nd jump + up B to recover. For a competitive level, the only requirement for entry are the advanced techniques you can learn in Wak's videos + some character specific stuff. It's not as much of a game about calculation as you might thing it is

That's not saying that there isn't depth nor skill gap. The game still has it. This game is like chess. The rules are simple but there's a lot to learn when playing to win

A lot of tech in Melee revolves around movement options, such as dash dancing, wavedashing, moonwalking and so on. By reducing the set lag of a move, L-cancelling allows the player to move out of lag much quicker, therefore increasing the fluidity of the gameplay. As do the other techniques stated above.
The other techniques you mentioned aren't just about speed, they also enable players to move in the directions they want to, even while facing desired directions. L canceling only increases speed

I never mentioned camping I said evasion. In hindsight I should have replaced that word with speed. Many more combos wouldn't work if the player was not able to reduce the characters landing lag (Don't make the argument that they could reduce the standard lag of the move, because as it happens the set lag does exist. If moves had the halved lag already then L-cancelling could just allow people to quarter it) If Fox couldn't reduce the landing lag on his dair from 18 to 9, then people could escape drill shine. If the lag was already at 9 then the drill - shine would be totally free, and take no skill at all (Even though L-Cancelling that isn't hard)
Isn't the discussion about manual l canceling vs automatic effect of l canceling? Are you following well? Isn't it easy to understand that having the effect automatic would mean that there would be no additional manual l canceling? L canceling isn't the only skill in drill shining

Short hop > down + A/Z on frame 3 or later > (depending on the (hypothetical) game) delay > (depending on the (hypothetical) game) L/R/Z > delay based on lag > down + B > wait I think it's 5 frames > X/Y/tapjump > down-forward (or down-forward-forward against certain characters) + L/R

Removing the section in bold would make drill shining take 0 skill at all. You're totally right
 
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GenNyan

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SPoitter

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I feel that L cancelling is a great mechanic. For one, l cancelling after a while becomes second nature, and it adds reward to beginner players who are trying it for the first time with quick success since it's so easy to do. Besides, landing lag of attacks is honestly kind of obstructive to the match in certain situations, for me it makes the game clunky, L cancelling was a experimental design choice and I'm fairly certain in smash 5 if they really did make it like Melee L cancelling would have to be a given.
 
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