Free Will(With regards to Christianity)

[Violence]

So I've been thinking lately, and reading the Bible.

I'm an atheist, just gonna get that out of the way so people know what direction I'm coming from.

I've heard it said many times throughout my lifetime that God gives everyone the free will to choose between good and evil.

However, there are several instances in which God manipulates or predicts the future in an absolute fashion, such as hardening Pharoah's heart, or Jesus predicting that Peter will deny him and Judas will betray him.

For people who believe that Judas had a choice, if Judas did choose to not betray Jesus, what would that say about Jesus' omniscience? At least, in the Bible's lore, every prediction he made came true, so what happens if he's wrong?

For people who believe that Judas had no choice, is betraying Jesus still sin? If Judas had no choice in the matter, isn't it the same as God making Judas for the sole purpose of betraying him?

 

[Pachinkosam]

Well am catholic and a person named paul made the bible.But theres nothing wrong that you choose to be good or bad.Judas was a fake friend to jesus and its true his evil ways. Like when jesus had a bottle of wine and were going to there friends house a girl to clear this.Then judas just got the bottle of wine and told the grown women that we brought this wine.but to believe that we just took wine from jesus i was shock.


But its true what i said.

 

[Dre89]

This is known as the free will and foreknowledge problem, because it appears that they are incompatible.

It appears that if God knows the future, he can't communicate this knowledge to relevant parties, because if they know what their future is, then they may act differently, and 'change their future'.

At the same time however, seeing as God has free will, there's nothing preventing God from communicating knowledge of the future, but him doing so completely violates everything.

 

[GwJ]

What Christians have is a sense of placebo free will. When you get down to what they believe, they DON'T have free will because everything they have and will ever do is already determined by a timeless, all-powerful deity.

However, they don't know what the plan is, so for all purposes, they might as well have free will since they have no way of knowing they have no free will outside of understanding their god. I am quick to point out to a Christian that they're wrong when they try and tell me they have free will though.


On a side note, if a person believes the brain and the conscious mind are separate, then that also sort of justifies not believing in free-will either, because the brain knows what it is that you'll be doing before your conscious mind, and by extension, yourself, knows (and proceeds to do it).

 

[ElvenKing]

What Christians have is a sense of placebo free will. When you get down to what they believe, they DON'T have free will because everything they have and will ever do is already determined by a timeless, all-powerful deity.

However, they don't know what the plan is, so for all purposes, they might as well have free will since they have no way of knowing they have no free will outside of understanding their god. I am quick to point out to a Christian that they're wrong when they try and tell me they have free will though.


On a side note, if a person believes the brain and the conscious mind are separate, then that also sort of justifies not believing in free-will either, because the brain knows what it is that you'll be doing before your conscious mind, and by extension, yourself, knows (and proceeds to do it).

No, that is incorrect. Such an argument for free will states that God did not determine actions, at least in the sense a person taking an action form the possible actions(God , of course, did determine all the possible action in the act of creating the nature of everything. However, this is not a problem because the "choice" is between actions God defined as possible- following God or not following God, not having the power to define reality yourself). This is, of course , incompatible with the notion of God have a "plan" for you, as that would require God to interfere to ensure you followed the "plan(or it might be that "plan" is nothing more than creating you knowing what choices you will make freely, but then all "plan" means is that "you will exist how you exist), but that is why coherent proponents of free will eject the notion of everyone having their lives "planned." ."

 

[Sucumbio]

Well am catholic and a person named paul made the bible.But theres nothing wrong that you choose to be good or bad.Judas was a fake friend to jesus and its true his evil ways. Like when jesus had a bottle of wine and were going to there friends house a girl to clear this.Then judas just got the bottle of wine and told the grown women that we brought this wine.but to believe that we just took wine from jesus i was shock.


But its true what i said.

what is this I don't even

OT: This article should shed some light on your questions.

"God can be all-powerful and all-knowing even while people continue to exercise free will, because God does not exist in time."

 

[GwJ]

No, that is incorrect. Such an argument for free will states that God did not determine actions, at least in the sense a person taking an action form the possible actions(God , of course, did determine all the possible action in the act of creating the nature of everything. However, this is not a problem because the "choice" is between actions God defined as possible- following God or not following God, not having the power to define reality yourself). This is, of course , incompatible with the notion of God have a "plan" for you, as that would require God to interfere to ensure you followed the "plan(or it might be that "plan" is nothing more than creating you knowing what choices you will make freely, but then all "plan" means is that "you will exist how you exist), but that is why coherent proponents of free will eject the notion of everyone having their lives "planned." ."

The answer can be determined easily.

Does your god know exactly what every action you ever will make be? Basically, is he omniscient?

if (omniscient == 1)
{
freewill = 0;
}
else
{
freewill = 1;
}

 

[ElvenKing]

The answer can be determined easily.

Does your god know exactly what every action you ever will make be? Basically, is he omniscient?

if (omniscient == 1)
{
freewill = 0;
}
else
{
freewill = 1;
}

An answer begin determined is not a choice being determined. Indeed, if there is to be a choice, there must be an answer(for it must be true that someone chose whatever they chose). This is the case regardless of whether there is a being that knows about it or not. This is why that argument is wrong. God knows what choice you make with your free will. God is's knowledge is determined by what action is chosen with free will; God's knowledge does not determine what choice is taken.

 

[GwJ]

I suppose it's a matter if you think your god observes the universe or controls the universe. Which is it?

 

[ElvenKing]

I suppose it's a matter if you think your god observes the universe or controls the universe. Which is it?

If free will exists, in the instance of the given choice of humans, God by definition does not control what happens in that instance, for the selection of a decision is up to the person. Note you have to be careful with rejecting that God controls the universe because a great level of control of the world could co-exist with free will. Indeed, it is dictated by the the defined nature of God. For example, being the creator of all things and knowing there nature, God actually, in the act of creating, defines all the actions that it is possible for a human to chose from(as one can never do something which is impossible). However, this isn't equivalent to dooming humanity to only being able to behave improperly. God can define that there is both the improper choices and the proper choices to freely select from.

Of course, many would not think that this absolves God or moral irresponsibility, for God could, assuming that you don't take this is the best world God could have made, have created a world where the suffering we see in this one does not exist.

 

[jaswa]

The answer can be determined easily.

Does your god know exactly what every action you ever will make be? Basically, is he omniscient?

if (omniscient == 1)
{
freewill = 0;
}
else
{
freewill = 1;
}

You're confusing logical with temporal order.

A free will act must logically proceed the knowledge of said act, yet the fore prefix means God has knowledge of it temporally prior to the choice.

Free will and omniscience are perfectly compatible when you understand this distinction.

As to Andre's point, yes God might leave scope for someone to 'change their free will choice' by communicating the foreknowledge of what they would have done. However I'm not sure this poses a problem for Biblical Christianity; the OT only foreshadows things like Judas betraying it doesn't explicitly mention him, the NT is written after the events it mentions, so a phrase like 'the one who would betray Jesus' is written with the end point of their gospel in mind, and as for the few instances like Judas betraying and Peter denying, well they came to fruition and weren't superseded