Frame Data talk

[HeroMystic]

Too lazy to make a usual fancy OP like I usually do. Basically, I figured we can talk about frame data since it's been a rather huge topic for awhile now.

Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219407
A2 Guide: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248362

Both threads are rather incomplete, but I also figured if we know more frame data we can find out what works and what doesn't.

 

[Justblaze647]

Or we can all emulate Boss...

<3

[/trolling mario boards]

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay, how do you exactly want to discuss frames? Why don't you just ask me questions since chances are, I know the answer to it if it has to do with frame data. The only thing I probably can't answer is what frame you can F-tilt slide on (or the frame you do Sliding Up-smashes), and we don't have complete advantage on hit data.

Random stuff: Mario's Jab is -6 between hits of the Jab combo, so the average shieldgrab timed perfectly can in fact shieldgrab it. 7 frame or slower shieldgrabs (Ike, Ganon, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Zelda, tethers) cannot shieldgrab between hits of Mario's Jab.

F-tilt ends one frame earlier than the spotdodge, so if the opponent spotdodges right as you F-tilt, you're at a frame advantage.

Jab2 on Mario's Jab sequence sweetspotted gets a 5 frame advantage on another Mario, meaning that 2Jabs -> Dsmash works on the same characters that Luigi can D-smash. Sweetspotting both Jab1 and 2 on characters results in D-smash being unblockable against everyone except Sheik, Falcon, Wolf, Fox, Falco.

Jab U-tilt, D-tilt, and F-tilt come out the same frame as D-smash, thus the same characters are susceptible to being comboed by those moves except for U-tilt, which has less range. Jab U-tilt is only good against Pit and Samus, who have hitstun animations that lean forward.

 

[HeroMystic]

I've been hearing some talk that auto-canceled aerials can go into true combos. What I personally want to know is if there is something we're not looking at in terms of true combos.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It depends on percent, but Mario's N-air, B-air, and U-air do true combo into all of his ground moves when you space them correctly. If you do it perfectly, you can actually do aerial -> reverse F-smash for like 30%.

D-air -> U-air at extremely low percents can be airdodged, but the position it puts your opponent is so tight that they probably will get hit by a second U-air anyway.

 

[HeroMystic]

I really really really need listed Damage and IASA frames for each attack, but mainly the damage. I'd get it myself but my Wii is a piece of ****.

 

[Famous]

Or we can all emulate Boss...

<3

[/trolling mario boards]

Never emulate, be original...Focus on the pros and cons rather than taking somebodys whole way of playing...

I have no clue about frame data...I just use what I think beats other moves off of feel...

 

[Flameleon]

-Barbarian Style isn't a very good style for us, Famous x9-

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I don't care about frames, I just play the game.

That's all for my discussion on frames.

EDIT:

Frame speed move tier list

S-tier = Fair
A-tier = Jab, Ftilt, Uair, Dsmash
B-tier = Everything else
WDF tier = Dtilt

Sounds about right.

 

[Kanzaki]

Who cares about frames? It's all bout what works and brings you win. It's not like Brawl Mario is like Melee Fox. I think the only thing I'd want to put time into to master is the ftilt -> spot dodge slide thingy... I found out it also works with utilt :]

 

[HeroMystic]

If you aren't going to contribute then don't bother posting.

 

[Calebyte]

I'm interested in learning about frames. I'll keep an eye on this discussion for sure.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I believe I contributed with my frame tier list. Not my fault if you have differing views about which moves are faster than others.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm only going to say this once and only once.

Shut the fuck up.

I made this thread, particularly, to enhance my metagame thread to give a more clear analysis on what works and what doesn't. I am trying to give factual information and push forward in Mario's metagame. The fact that discoveries can be made out of frame data is what makes this so important.

Bottomline: I (and many others regarding this) am doing a service here. I am not doing this for fun (who wants to sit here and type 10 pages of text talking about a game?), I am trying to inform the community, particularly this one, to show how to enhance Mario's metagame. If you are going to do nothing but spit on it then get the hell out of this thread and don't bother posting.

The fact that my target audience are the very people dissing this right now, is what aggravates me so much. I don't care if you don't like frame data. Leave it to the people who wants to go to the technical side of Brawl and enhance the game there, and wait to reap what we find from there. Don't hinder progress with a bunch of crap.

 

[Famous]

Woah...what? **** wasn't censored o.o

Hero, your helping out the boards so I have no problem with it...It would explain why certain moves don't work in "what if" situations...

 

[The Master of Mario]

The frame data for lingering disjointed hitboxes of Fireballs and Fludd as well as Multi-hit attacks like D-air could use some discussion. As well as the frames of hitstun or hitduration of attacks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most Mario players don't use U-tilt enough correctly.

U-tilt is an invaluable move that will really determine whether or not you know how your character works. The hard part about this move is the fact that the conventional horizontal spacing strategies do not help you land this move, but the amazing part about this move is the strategies and situations that do let you land this move. Not to mention the decent reward.

The thing that most Mario mains forget is that U-tilt is a lingering hitbox. If I am correct, and if it is like what it was in Melee, it lingers for about 7 frames. This is amazingly reliable for punishing airdodges on reaction, and the sick priority of this move keeps getting overlooked for the purposes of anti-airing. It was of course easier to do in Melee where WDing and a slightly bigger horizontal reach made U-tilt even better, but you really can't ignore U-tilt for how fast it comes out and how long it lingers with fairly high priority.

 

[HeroMystic]

Woah...what? **** wasn't censored o.o

Censor Dodge.

Hero, your helping out the boards so I have no problem with it...

That's all I require. If I was able to lay out the data myself I would, but I don't have the equipment and frankly I just don't have the cash to blow.

The frame data for lingering disjointed hitboxes of Fireballs and Fludd as well as Multi-hit attacks like D-air could use some discussion. As well as the frames of hitstun or hitduration of attacks.

Actually, FLUDD's frame data would be nice, particularly to analyze FIHL.

 

[Kanzaki]

I said I personally don't care bout frame data, but I also contributed by saying utilt -> spot dodge works just like ftilt -> spot dodge.. I really find potential in this

 

[HeroMystic]

I said I personally don't care bout frame data

I don't care if you don't care. Stop mentioning it.

I'll look into the F-tilt slide (and apparently U-tilt slide) whenever my Wii gets fixed.

 

[Calebyte]

There are tilt slides in Brawl? o_O

 

[Kanzaki]

I'm only going to say this once, and only once.

Stop getting butt hurt, kthx :]

But yea Calebyte , if you ftilt/utilt, then spot dodge at the end of it, you slide back a bit. Only works for Mario from what I know.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Pikachu can use Dtilt into any of his moves (particularly Fsmash) and he slides back a bit as well...

 

[Kanzaki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6Dj9UiUgGE

@ 1.00 there's the slide... I've been able to manipulate that with utilt.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Interesting, if anything it allows you to get a poke in with Ftilt, and if something doesn't go your way you can retreat immediately afterwards...

 

[:mad:]

Closed by request.