Frame Data for Falcon's Throws

[Clamhat]

Hey guys, so a lot of people have been wondering-

jk no youtube intro

I couldn't find anywhere that listed FAF* data for Falcon's throws (especially his weight dependent dthrow) so I went to the lab to figure it out myself. Everything in this post can also be found here. Special thanks to @KuroganeHammer and @Fox Is Openly Deceptive for the character attribute data and labbing guides, respectively.

Falcon's Dthrow is weight-dependent, meaning it takes longer to throw heavier characters than it takes to throw light characters. The FAF for Dthrow ranges from 32 frames on Jigglypuff to 48 frames on Bowser. To put that in perspective, a 16-frame difference is equivalent to the the startup on Falcon's dair.

*FAF (First Actionable Frame) refers to the first frame that you can act out of a given animation. For example, when I say that the FAF of Falcon's Dthrow on Jigglypuff is frame 32, that means that once you start the throwing animation, you have to wait until the 32nd frame before you can start moving to follow up on it.

Spoiler: SOME NOTES ON FALCON'S THROWS

1. These values were counted out by hand using the 2- and 3-frame skip in training mode. I tested every character several times to ensure the numbers were consistent, but there's a slight chance some of the numbers may be off by 1-2 frames.
2. Uthrow, Bthrow, and Fthrow are not weight-dependent and have consistent animation lengths and FAF.
3. The FAF for all of Falcon's throws is not affected by any of the following:
   • Current Damage (yours or your opponents)
   • Rage
   • Opponent fall/fast fall speed
   • Opponent gravity
   • Cloud's Limit Break buff
   • Shulk's Monado Arts (all of them)
   • Lucario's Aura
   • Whether the throw is performed out of a standing grab, dash grab, or pivot grab

Spoiler: Regular Throw FAF data (consistent across all characters)

Throw | FAF
FThrow | 42
Bthrow | 51
Uthrow | 48

Spoiler: Dthrow FAF data for all character weights

Characters | Weight | Dthrow FAF | Dthrow FAF Advantage vs. Fthrow
| 130 | 48 | -6
| 122 | 46 | -4
| 119 | 45 | -3
| 116 | 45 | -3
| 113 | 44 | -2
| 108 | 43 | -1
| 107 | 42 | 0
| 106 | 42 | 0
| 104 | 42 | 0
| 103 | 41 | +1
| 102 | 41 | +1
| 100 | 40 | +2
| 99 | 40 | +2
| 98 | 40 | +2
| 97 | 40 | +2
| 96 | 39 | +3
| 95 | 39 | +3
| 94 | 39 | +3
| 93 | 39 | +3
| 91 | 38 | +4
| 90 | 38 | +4
| 89 | 38 | +4
| 85 | 37 | +5
| 84 | 36 | +6
| 82 | 36 | +6
| 81 | 36 | +6
| 80 | 35 | +7
| 79 | 35 | +7
| 77 | 35 | +7
| 75 | 34 | +8
| 74 | 34 | +8
| 68 | 32 | +10

Spoiler: Condensed version that places similar weights together

Characters | Weight Range | Dthrow FAF | Dthrow FAF Advantage vs. Fthrow
| 130 | 48 | -6
| 122 | 46 | -4
... | 116-119 | 45 | -3
| 113 | 44 | -2
| 108 | 43 | -1
... ... | 104-107 | 42 | 0
... | 102-103 | 41 | +1
... ... ... | 97-100 | 40 | +2
... ... ... | 93-96 | 39 | +3
... ... | 89-91 | 38 | +4
| 85 | 37 | +5
... ... | 81-84 | 36 | +6
... ... | 77-80 | 35 | +7
... | 74-75 | 34 | +8
| 68 | 32 | +10

SOME MORE NOTES, SPECIFICALLY ON FALCON'S DOWN THROW:

1. The range of all character weights goes from 68 to 98, but it isn't an even distribution. Even though Mario, Dr. Mario, and Corrin sit at the median weight of 98, there are more "light" fighters than there are "heavy" fighters.
2. The number of fighters upon which Dthrow is slower than Fthrow is significantly smaller. That group consists of the 5 super-heavyweights (Bowser, DJ, Dedede, Charizard, Ganondorf) plus Samus and Bowser Jr. Generally speaking, Dthrow is almost always going to be Captain Falcon's fastest throw.
3. As important as having this data is, it's just as important to understand that even though Dthrow is usually the fastest option, may not always the best one for followups. How well you can follow up from a throw depends on many more variables that are much harder to quantify.[/SIZE]

Conclusion: Frame data alone will not tell you the optimal throw in any situation. However, there is more analysis that can be done on the throw animations to determine which situations, if any, are advantageous to a particular one. The next thing I'm going to work on (if it's possible) is breaking down the animation to find out which frame the damage is dealt, the active frames of any hitboxes, and the frame that the knockback is actually applied and the character actually starts to fly away. The more practical the frame data is, the easier it is to understand how to use it.

Update #1: Damage Frames and Launch Frames

As I originally concluded, just knowing how long each animation lasts doesn't tell you how well you can combo from a throw. Throws function differently than normal attacks; there's a set number of frames where you and your opponent are stationary before they actually get launched away from you. These frames have absolutely no bearing on a throw's followup potential, so the next step is to factor them out which leaves just the frames where the target is moving away from you waiting for hitstun to end, and you're waiting for the animation to end so you can pursue them. I'm calling these "Wait Frames", and they differ on every throw as well as being weight-dependent for Dthrow.

Figuring out how many wait frames there are on every throw/character is pretty straightforward, but also potentially imprecise. For each character, I used the 3-frame and 2-frame skip and noted the first frame that their position started to move away from Captain Falcon (for the sake of I also recorded the damage-dealing frames for each throw . To exaggerate this movement as much as possible I set the target's damage to 999%. This is recorded as the "1st Moving Frame", and the frame immediately preceding it is recorded as the "Launch Frame". The number of Wait Frames for a throw is the diffrence between the FAF and the Launch Frame.

It isn't possible to exactly determine the 1st Moving Frame and measurement relies completely on my own observations, so I made every measurement as conservative as possible. Consequently, Wait Frames may be overestimated by 1 at most on any throw/character. However, ensuring that all of the error is in one direction means that you can still use these values to calculate frame traps.

As always, all of this information can be found on the doc. New data is on a new sheet.

Spoiler: Damage/Launch Frames for Fthrow, Bthrow, and Uthrow

Throw | Damage Frame 1 | Damage Frame 2 | Launch Frame | FAF | Wait Frames
Fthrow | 11 (5%) | 22 (4%) | 22 | 42 | 20
Bthrow | 12 (5%) | 19 (4%) | 18 | 51 | 33
Uthrow | 12 (4%) | 22 (3%) | 20* | 48 | 28

*That's not a typo. During Uthrow, the target is launched 2 frames before the damage is applied.

Spoiler: Dthrow Damage/Launch Frames for all Characters

Characters | Weight | FAF | Damage Frame | Launch Frame | Wait Frames | Advantage vs. Fthrow
| 130 | 48 | 25 | 24 | 24 | -4
| 122 | 46 | 24 | 23 | 23 | -3
| 119 | 45 | 24 | 22 | 23 | -3
| 116 | 45 | 24 | 23 | 22 | -2
| 113 | 44 | 23 | 22 | 22 | -2
| 108 | 43 | 23 | 21 | 22 | -2
| 107 | 42 | 22 | 21 | 21 | -1
| 106 | 42 | 22 | 21 | 21 | -1
| 104 | 42 | 22 | 21 | 21 | -1
| 103 | 41 | 22 | 21 | 20 | 0
| 102 | 41 | 22 | 21 | 20 | 0
| 100 | 40 | 21 | 20 | 20 | 0
| 99 | 40 | 21 | 20 | 20 | 0
| 98 | 40 | 21 | 20 | 20 | 0
| 97 | 40 | 21 | 20 | 20 | 0
| 96 | 39 | 21 | 20 | 19 | +1
| 95 | 39 | 21 | 20 | 19 | +1
| 94 | 39 | 21 | 20 | 19 | +1
| 93 | 39 | 21 | 20 | 19 | +1
| 91 | 38 | 20 | 19 | 19 | +1
| 90 | 38 | 20 | 19 | 19 | +1
| 89 | 38 | 20 | 19 | 19 | +1
| 85 | 37 | 19 | 18 | 19 | +1
| 84 | 36 | 19 | 18 | 18 | +2
| 82 | 36 | 19 | 18 | 18 | +2
| 81 | 36 | 19 | 18 | 18 | +2
| 80 | 35 | 19 | 18 | 17 | +3
| 79 | 35 | 19 | 18 | 17 | +3
| 77 | 35 | 18 | 17 | 18 | +2*
| 75 | 34 | 18 | 17 | 17 | +3
| 74 | 34 | 18 | 17 | 17 | +3
| 68 | 32 | 17 | 16 | 16 | +4

*Once again, not a typo. FAF scales faster than Wait Frames, so Rosalina occupies a sort of edge case here.

Spoiler: Condensed Version

Characters | Weight Range | Dthrow FAF range | Launch Frame Range | Wait Frames | Advantage vs. Fthrow
| 130 | 48 | 24 | 24 | -4
... | 119-122 | 45-46 | 22-23 | 23 | -3
... ... | 108-116 | 43-45 | 21-23 | 22 | -2
... ... | 104-107 | 42 | 21 | 21 | -1
... ... ... ... ... | 97-103 | 40-41 | 20-21 | 20 | 0
... ... ... ... ... ... ... | 85-96 | 37-39 | 18-20 | 19 | +1
... ... ... | 77, 81-84 | 35-36 | 17-18 | 18 | +2
... ... ... | 74-75, 79-80 | 34-35 | 17-18 | 17 | +3
| 68 | 32 | 16 | 16 | +4

SOME NOTES ON WAIT FRAMES:

1. Wait Frames provide a more practical look at the cooldown on throws, and it appears that the actual advantages/disadvantages of dthrow are more constrained than what we initially thought.
   
2. Dthrow still has no disadvantage vs. Fthrow against most of the roster. There are now 6 additional characters with a disadvantage in Wait Frames, but well over half of the characters in the game are at least even.
3. Once again, it can be said that Dthrow is almost always Falcon's fastest throw.

Conclusion #2: We now have a much better idea of how to use Falcon's throws. One of the last huge pieces of the puzzle is to determine how hitstun scales with % for each throw. That entails a LOT of calculation (and a lot of foundational research/experimentation to make sure the data is accurate) but it will allow us to get a substantially better idea of which throws are better on which characters, and at which percentages.


I'll try to keep the google doc and this thread updated with anything I find out.

hope you enjoyed, peace out

edit 3/13/16: Went back and found the FAF on Falcon's Bthrow is 51, not 49. Updated Google Doc
edit 3/14/16: Added Damage Frame/Launch Frame/Wait Frame data for all throws/characters. Updated Google doc and this post with explanations.
edit 3/16/16: Updated Bowser, Charizard, Sheik, Mewtwo with new weight values. Updated Google Doc

 

[Clamhat]

UPDATE: Added a bunch more data. Check out the doc/explanations!

 

[Ffamran]

I compiled data from sixriver's frame data compilations for throws into here: http://smashboards.com/threads/throw-active-and-recovery-frame-data-update-cloud.424510/. Recovery frames are off by 1 for most characters and I'm probably not going to update it since I'm taking a break from Smash for a while.

If anything, if you can read Japanese or are willing to memorize frame data to check what move is what and the formatting of stuff... or rather guess through what Google translate says, sixriver's frame data compilations have throw data for every character: http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm. Captain Falcon's name in Japanese characters is this: キャプテン・ファルコン. So, use Ctrl + F and search that. Or just click this link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...2nZeNxy1N0d_dZowoLLtY/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0. I also think you can translate the entire Google Spreadsheet, but you might have to be on Chrome for that... not sure. Google can help.