Fox vs Samus

[Kiyoru]

I'm a Fox player and my friend is a Samus player. We're pretty evenly matched when I don't use any advanced moves, eg. wavedashing, waveshining etc. but I have been doing 4 stock battles against a lvl.8 Samus trying to work her attacks out, but it's so predictable and I'm not getting anywhere.

So, does anyone have any tips for defeating a Samus with Fox? I mean, she's hard to shine spike because of her up + B. btw, my friend doesn't know any advanced techniques, which helps.

I'm currently learning to SHFFL, and I am slowly getting the hang of it. It's the L-Cancel that's giving me the most trouble, but I can manage to get a few fast hits in with fast falling.


^^

 

[Ares.]

Don't face your friend :l find more people to play.

 

[mikeHAZE]

first - don't practice against anything but a level one.

 

[Kiyoru]

Ares, why do you say that?

Mike, why only level ones?



o___O; I was expecting different replies..

 

[v3x?]

Only play a level one bot for practising combos. Anything above level one will give you bad habbits (which you dont want).

If you can, find more people to play and learn from them.

Alternatively - if you really want to beat a samus, you have to learn ALL of the advance techniques, along with the fox specific stuff. Waveshining is you main friend in this match up. Try shffl'd nair combos (i know you're learning to shffl, but learning it while comboing is sometimes easier!) waveshine > usmash is your finisher against samus. And if your friend doesnt use advanced techs, i suggest learning the flatland drill shine infinate to get him to read into advanced techs! Once you infinate him 4times to death, he'll be curious

Also, try and get into the habbit early of learning when to wavedash, when to shffl - just when to use all your techniques. Watch plenty of videos on youtube - everything is there you'll ever need! Failing that, get on the hub and ask some people there too

Hope this helps!

 

[Kiyoru]

Thanks v3x?.

The only problem I seem to be having with shffl's is the short hop (which button to use best) and L-cancelling (such a short hop and able to get an L or R in, its tough).

As for waveshining a Samus, she always seems to slide too far away from me when I shine her.

 

[v3x?]

For shorthopping, use whatever feels comfortable... Although if you havnt decided yet - i recommend getting into the habbit of using y for everything, as it will come in handy when learning stupid advanced stuff... like doubleshines (although i still use x for double shines).

With samus, i actually find it easier to drillshine her, because your jump can add extra distance. Although it sounds like you just need to work on perfect wavedashes thats all And maybe jumping out of the shine quicker lol.

SHFFLing is just one of those things that comes with practise.... I recommend learning to shffl with a slower character first... then move to a medium, then to fox. (It really wont take very long! lol) You can have it down in like an hour if you put your mind to it... Try bowser, then falco then fox. Thats a good distance in jump speed between each, and falco is very similar to fox in the kind of moves you have to do.

Just go into vs mode against no-one (an empty controller if you have a spare) and practise shffling on FD (not against him) and see how you do, then start it against him. You'll notice you may have to change your L cancel time slightly when you hit someone, and when you hit a shield to. It seems like a lot to take it- but soon it becomes second nature, i really dont think about it anymore lol I stopped about 3days after i learnt

 

[Kiyoru]

The problem is, I have seen a few videos with people showing their hands while short hopping, and everyone uses X. I don't know how to clip my thumb off the Y to short hop, because it's at an awkward position on the controller.

and.. uh.. doubleshines? O__O;; whut are they!

heh, everyone says it comes with practise. I guess I'll be practising a long time. k, well I am using Bowser in training mode, practising short hops and L-cancels.

 

[v3x?]

lol doubleshines are when you jump then shine, then shine then shine... but you do it so fast you dont leave the ground - so you can multishine for as long as you want. Its just one of those things you wont REALLY need... But if you want to become a true technical fox - you might want to learn it lol.

But yeah, use y if you can - i garontee it will help you in the long run... Just... Practise run around FD short hopping with y. Always practise it moving, because its more likely you'll need to be moving when you're shffling lol.

But yeah, do it in steps - learn to short hop. Then learn to short hop and do a move. Then learn to fast fall it also, and then to L cancel. Make sure you can do each step consistantly before you move on!

 

[Kiyoru]

I see. I thought they were called JC Shine? because I can do 4 of them XD! pathetic, ya.

FD? k, I was getting nowhere with Bowser, so I'm now trying with Falco. Sorry, but I find it hard to do it with slower characters. Falco jumps so high if you don't short hop, and it's just frustrating, so I think I'm gonna go back to practising with Fox for now.

 

[ArcNatural]

Short hops with Y imo are more easily done when you learn to just "press" it fast, as opposed to sliding it off like most people do with X. It takes practice whatever way you choose, if you don't like the feeling of pressing it, I recommend you work on sliding off Y to the left. Which will enable you to have the tip of your finger closer to B, with the middle knuckle area of your thumb being able to hit A or the C-stick. If you have pretty fast fingers though, using X or Y will not matter. Just use whatver you feels comfortable.

I also recommend telling your friend about this site and having him/her learn advanced techs as well. There is nothing like competition to help yourselves get better. You will also be better off rather than trying to learn them by yourself just to try to make a fool of your friend.

 

[v3x?]

Lol yeah they are JCshines They have numerous names i think, jc shines, multishines, doubleshines and a few others i've seen around the boards lol.

I dont know why people think its good to slide off =/ Just press and release really quick! Sliding off prevents you from getting to either the Cstick, A or B as fast as you could if you just pressed it.

Then again, there's only really a few things you're going to need to be that quick for...

Only things that spring to mind are shine bair/nair, shdl and a few combos =/

 

[Kiyoru]

Arcnatural, thanks for the tips. I have tried getting my friend into advanced techniques, but he's simply not interested in them really. Nor can he pull them off very well. He tried wavedashing before and failed, then said he can't be bothered with it.

v3x?, I'll try pressing it really lightly. SHFFLs are definitely the hardest technique I have tried in Melee. Wavedashing and Waveshining came to me quite quickly. I mean, I have fast fingers, but not when it comes to pressing the buttons lightly or anything, that's probably where I am failing.

 

[v3x?]

Arcnatural, thanks for the tips. I have tried getting my friend into advanced techniques, but he's simply not interested in them really. Nor can he pull them off very well. He tried wavedashing before and failed, then said he can't be bothered with it.

v3x?, I'll try pressing it really lightly. SHFFLs are definitely the hardest technique I have tried in Melee. Wavedashing and Waveshining came to me quite quickly. I mean, I have fast fingers, but not when it comes to pressing the buttons lightly or anything, that's probably where I am failing.

Ah right, well it actually has nothing to do with how lightly you press it, it's based on how quickly you release the button. I think its 4 frames with fox, i could be wrong lol. So you might wanna try bashing it really hard for a change

I usually demolish my pad during a tournament lol But dont worry, they're very sturdy Havnt broken it yet and i've been a tech fox for like two years!

 

[Kiyoru]

Heh, I'll give it a go, thanks! I just took a video of my efforts so far, and I'm now uploading it, so I can post the link here and show you how I'm doing.

 

[ArcNatural]

Your friend would probably be much more inclined to learn advanced tactics if he played another character besides Samus at first. Speaking from experience. Before I really found this site and I played with my friends for fun the best players in my group were two Samus players. Samus just has a lot going for her (CC, projectile, good recovery, spotdodge, slow aerials) in the beginning skill days. Then I found this site and watched Wound of the Wind and well since then both of those Samus players never wanted to learn advanced tactics... and they both quit a few weeks later. Luckily I have a decent amount of tournaments in my area and a brother who didn't play Samus in the beginning...

 

[v3x?]

Arcnatural - thats quite true actually... The only reason i continued to play after being intimidated by the best, was being inspired by a really technical player - someone that made the game look easy but still cool... So maybe try watching some phanna combo vids

Phanna's SW skillz should do the trick ^^

 

[Kiyoru]

Phanna is a really good player. I'll show Phanna's videos to my friend and see if that will make him wanna learn some more techniques.

Meanwhile, my video has only 11% remaining.. *shakes fist at slow internetz*

 

[Kiyoru]

Sorry for the late reply, my computer completely messed up and I couldn't do anytihng.

And sorry for the double post, but here's the vid I made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tahrQL0NcvY

Believe it or not, I have actually got better since that video. I only made it about an hour ago, but I have been practising since, and I can pull it off better now. So, I'll probably make another video to post here later.

^^

 

[Oskurito]

Advice based on your vid: Work on waveshining and shuffling

Advice for shuffling : Press X then A (try to move your thumb from x to a as fast as you can) then press Down+L (both at the same time) after you hit the character (the height of your enemy doesn't make a difference because you'll always get to the same height with your short hop). Practice this after running (nairs), you can use the c-stick if you find trouble doing other aerials like shuffled uairs or bairs (going forwards). Practice waveshining after aerials, they set up for extremely good combos.

Advice for waveshining against samus (or mario, or doc, or yoshi) :

this has 2 solutions:

first one: do a fast and verylong waveshine then up-smash, but that's way harder than it sounds

second one: do a fast (with decent speed at least) and normal wavedash (like you usually do) then WALK a little towards your opponent and before the stuns of the shine ends up-smash him/her.

And yeah drillshine kinda gives you the momentum to connect with up-smash easier than with just a waveshine

Watch my combo vid or some of my matches for ideas on combos.

And keep practicing, AND DONT USE FIREFOX ON A REAL MATCH unless is for recovering of course

 

[Brookman]

lasers, drill up tilt

 

[Kiyoru]

Wow, thanks Oskurito, I'll definitely keep those in mind.

Btw, I didn't mean to use Firefox twice in that match. It was an accident ;P


I have made another, better video of my SHFFLs and I have almost finished editing this one. So again, I'll post it here when I'm done.

 

[Kiyoru]

Sorry for yet, another double post..

but here is the link to my second video http://youtube.com/watch?v=XDKh7BV1ONE


^^

 

[Rob_Gambino]

lasers and back air.

 

[v3x?]

yeah you definately need to be consistant lol

but yeah most of the time, you're getting the sh (sometimes) but missing the l cancel... so its the l cancel that needs the most work lol

 

[Retroking2000]

shine missiles to be a nuisance
if she cc's, shffl a u-air
shl and reflect missiles, drives scrubs nuts
waveshine if you know how, if not, learn. it's handy
if you grab her, u-throw to u-air for the ko
shine -> wavedash -> upsmash is good for kos on samus too


shining the grapple ...but the screw attack...that's like next to impossible to shine...

When up against a missle spamming samus, try to stay in the medium range...that way, he can't hit you with ground attacks, and reflected missles are too quick for him to missle them again. Against a camping Samus, laser spam is an extremely good idea. And jumping right over the missles is somewhat effective, if you expect the follow-up dash attack. Grab Samus when she tries to dash attack...and otherwise...just challenge her air. A Samus in the air is a sitting duck for Foxes, because all her air moves do not over prioritize Fox's Usmash...although her nair does hit at the same time.

 

[v3x?]

shine missiles to be a nuisance
if she cc's, shffl a u-air
shl and reflect missiles, drives scrubs nuts
waveshine if you know how, if not, learn. it's handy
if you grab her, u-throw to u-air for the ko
shine -> wavedash -> upsmash is good for kos on samus too


shining the grapple ...but the screw attack...that's like next to impossible to shine...

When up against a missle spamming samus, try to stay in the medium range...that way, he can't hit you with ground attacks, and reflected missles are too quick for him to missle them again. Against a camping Samus, laser spam is an extremely good idea. And jumping right over the missles is somewhat effective, if you expect the follow-up dash attack. Grab Samus when she tries to dash attack...and otherwise...just challenge her air. A Samus in the air is a sitting duck for Foxes, because all her air moves do not over prioritize Fox's Usmash...although her nair does hit at the same time.

you cant uthrow uair saums for a kill....

as for missile spam, fox's fulljump triple laser counter acts the timing - so if you fulljump straight after the higher missile, you'll jump over the lower one, and always be underneath the top, whilst giving her damage.

 

[Retroking2000]

thanks V3x

 

[Kiyoru]

Thanks guys.

About the L-Cancel, I never really know when to press it. I always press it just before I hit the ground but Eggz was saying do it when I hit the ground. I never really know if I L-Cancel or not too, so that's the main problem.

 

[LunInSpectra]

Its ALL about the drillshine.

 

[Kiyoru]

Its ALL about the drillshine.

Oh. Well, as it happens, I'm learning that now.. so thanks ^^