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Fox Underrated?

Derpiology

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I feel like Fox is somewhat underrated.

It isn't really because of the release of many tier lists (accurate or inaccurate), I just think a lot of people have been bashing Fox ever since Brawl came out with its "sluggish" speed compared to the rest of the series (don't misinterpret what I'm saying, brawl is tons of fun to me). I just want people's thoughts on whether or not Fox is underrated in general.

Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who just plays casually and just joined this site today.

Keep Foxing :fox64::foxmelee::fox::4fox:
 

Timbers

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There's a rather high opinion of Fox in Sm4sh. A lot of people are putting him as Top 10/15 potential. If anything, I think people overrate his potential.
 

BradLeeTee

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Welcome to the Fox club. I definitely agree I use For Glory mode ALOT and encounter a Fox Id say on an avg of every 100 matches. Fox is one of those 'Jack of all Trades' characters and can do well in almost any situation. Definitely a little bias since I've been a loyal Fox main ever since I started playing Smash years ago but I'd say if mastered Fox may be one of the best characters in this game, and even without what used to be his best tools (shine/laser) he's got amazing speed and a great combo game to quickly rack up the dmg.
 
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Derpiology

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There's a rather high opinion of Fox in Sm4sh. A lot of people are putting him as Top 10/15 potential. If anything, I think people overrate his potential.
Mmkay. What kinda triggered this thread to be made by me is because of my friends usually never giving fox a chance because he is far from living up to his Melee legacy. I guess it depends on who you talk to.
 

Timbers

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Mmkay. What kinda triggered this thread to be made by me is because of my friends usually never giving fox a chance because he is far from living up to his Melee legacy. I guess it depends on who you talk to.
your friends are likely hipsters and are trying to get smash cred by dropping melee references.
 

luke_atyeo

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basing your opinion on a character based on how that character was in a completely different game is stupid and you should tell your friends that.
Think about it, how does the way fox plays in melee have any real impact on how fox is in smash 4?
 

Legato

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^ also, given the adjustments to every other character fox is definitely more viable in Sm4sh than brawl. Even then Brawl Fox was not a bad character, just other characters had more priority and the game play was slower so you couldn't get in as easy (camping metaknights were a nightmare). Now we have a great combo game and a very consistent kill potential across all of the characters. I encourage you to give him a chance. He requires extreme precision, but is a very rewarding character to play.
 

luke_atyeo

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fox in brawl was actually really ****ing good, but he had unwinnable matchups that were so bad the other player didnt even need to have played iceclimbers/sheik/pikachu/zss in order to win :<

was one of the characters who could argue to have an even matchup against metaknight.
 

Bullys

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basing your opinion on a character based on how that character was in a completely different game is stupid and you should tell your friends that.
Think about it, how does the way fox plays in melee have any real impact on how fox is in smash 4?
I absolutely agree, but I was talking about this with someone else recently.

This is not a phenomena limited to smash, I've encountered it in nearly every competitive/pro game I've played since the 90's.

If something was "great" in another iteration of a game or patch, even the reduction in its power will sometimes lead to people just shunning it now. X isnt as good as it was, so it cant be good now (despite a new patch bringing a new meta, or a new game ... bringing a whole new game and mechanics).

Now by at large the more competitive and pro level players will generally ignore this, as its in their interest to actually do well and explore options, but sometimes that information has to be outsourced (now not so much with smash since you can get a large volume of testing done in a relatively short time, but when I played high level FPS games, a practice match with 1 team would take up a 2hr slot, maybe 2 maps, you get a chance at running only a handful of strategies there, for example).

But as we know the elite players, at a general consideration, take up 0.5% of the gaming population, so the most vocal are not always the most competitive, and often the most vocal are the least informed.

Just my 2cents anyway.
 

Timbers

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fox in brawl was actually really ****ing good, but he had unwinnable matchups that were so bad the other player didnt even need to have played iceclimbers/sheik/pikachu/zss in order to win :<

was one of the characters who could argue to have an even matchup against metaknight.
I guess it depends on what we consider "good." If it weren't for those 4 characters, then he was really good. But I'm hesitant to just remove 4 MUs and call him a good character "if they didn't exist."

If we remove all other characters and just look at Fox then yeah, functionally, he was a solidly built character in Brawl.

You're also right in saying that an opponent could run to any of those characters and murder Fox, without knowing how to play the character. I'd be more inclined to call Fox bad because of that.
 

elmike

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imo, not considering fox to be at least top 10 is underrating him.

I'm surprised to not see more people playing fox. Yesterday i got to 1,000 for glory matches, and i have only encountered like 10 foxes, which i'm almost sure only one of them mained fox.

But to be honest, i kind of like not having too many fox players.
 

Timbers

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imo, not considering fox to be at least top 10 is underrating him.

I'm surprised to not see more people playing fox. Yesterday i got to 1,000 for glory matches, and i have only encountered like 10 foxes, which i'm almost sure only one of them mained fox.

But to be honest, i kind of like not having too many fox players.
There's a lot of things about Fox that is just..harder to do? People keep throwing around how you need to have an extra level of precision as Fox, and that's true.

Most characters get these fat meaty hitboxes on their aerials, or those aerials autocancel freely. Fox has very narrow hitboxes and very small windows of opportunity to throw them out without getting landing lag. Not having an actual jab (imo) is a huge deterrent. Jab cancels don't work on a lot of characters, dtilt/ftilt are slow for what they are, and so you're kind of forced to play this game of substituting nairs and (reverse) utilts where most characters could just jab to box people out. Grabs are not exactly as rewarding as most of the cast. You feel like you're working a lot harder than most characters to secure a kill, as your only kill options have these very tiny, yet very punishable hitboxes. Another huge deterrent, when you can grab most of the "top 10" cast and get a kill throw or free edgeguard options.

Not to discredit other characters, but a lot of characters make throwing out hitboxes to look kind of mindless. These huge hitboxes that sort of just cover their body for free with a lot of advantageous pressure behind them.

He definitely takes a lot of effort to do well with, but completely unrelated to the top half of this post, I still wonder where he may wind up as the game evolves.

I'm reserving my opinion on whether Fox will be Top 10 or not. No grab threat makes it easy to sit in shield against Fox, and having no edgeguard game really hurts. His kill setups prey on missed techs or bad DI, and I fear how much harder it will be for Fox to secure kills as people get better at this game (I'm all in favor for customs, as upB3 solves a lot of these issues). Nothing is safe on shield. Fox has awful disadvantage in that he has poor aerial mobility and mediocre aerials to land with. He's one of the easiest characters in the game to edgeguard, and being lightweight makes all of this very devastating.
 
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Legato

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But he is so fricken' fun to play xD

I will never give up on Fox in this game. Not top 10? We'll make him top 10.

But in all seriousness, he feels a lot like Marth from brawl to me. Marth seldom wins tourneys because of the incredible precision needed to handle other high-tier chars like MK, Snake, or Icies. I envision fox becoming a very similar character in this game. We won't see him sweep the tourneys, but he definitely can win when the person is playing on point.

On the other hand, I have the same sentiments as you because there is a very big difference between Sm4sh and Brawl. Sm4sh has a much more balanced roster, so there are definitely more threats to Fox in Sm4sh as opposed to looking at Marth in Brawl, who had to worry about a significantly smaller portion of the roster. The other obvious difference is that Marth could switch between a defensive and offensive play-style quite easily, both requiring extreme precision. Fox does not have the defensive play due to his short range and lack of grab range, so we are forced to be much more offensive and commit more. A flaw we must live with unfortunately.

This is why I like to use Link against defensive players. Overly defensive/campy players just aren't as fun to play against as Fox.
 

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Top 10 seems likely to me.

He did get directo nerfed from Brawl to this game. Thankfully, the changes to this game with pivoting and no chaingrabs indirectly buffed Fox
 

Probalo

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Fox is easily top 10 material IMO. He has good tools for almost any situation.
 
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NeoVanquisher17

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There's a lot of things about Fox that is just..harder to do? People keep throwing around how you need to have an extra level of precision as Fox, and that's true.

Most characters get these fat meaty hitboxes on their aerials, or those aerials autocancel freely. Fox has very narrow hitboxes and very small windows of opportunity to throw them out without getting landing lag. Not having an actual jab (imo) is a huge deterrent. Jab cancels don't work on a lot of characters, dtilt/ftilt are slow for what they are, and so you're kind of forced to play this game of substituting nairs and (reverse) utilts where most characters could just jab to box people out. Grabs are not exactly as rewarding as most of the cast. You feel like you're working a lot harder than most characters to secure a kill, as your only kill options have these very tiny, yet very punishable hitboxes. Another huge deterrent, when you can grab most of the "top 10" cast and get a kill throw or free edgeguard options.

Not to discredit other characters, but a lot of characters make throwing out hitboxes to look kind of mindless. These huge hitboxes that sort of just cover their body for free with a lot of advantageous pressure behind them.

He definitely takes a lot of effort to do well with, but completely unrelated to the top half of this post, I still wonder where he may wind up as the game evolves.

I'm reserving my opinion on whether Fox will be Top 10 or not. No grab threat makes it easy to sit in shield against Fox, and having no edgeguard game really hurts. His kill setups prey on missed techs or bad DI, and I fear how much harder it will be for Fox to secure kills as people get better at this game (I'm all in favor for customs, as upB3 solves a lot of these issues). Nothing is safe on shield. Fox has awful disadvantage in that he has poor aerial mobility and mediocre aerials to land with. He's one of the easiest characters in the game to edge guard, and being lightweight makes all of this very devastating.
I agree completely. I'm kinda new here, so I thought my insight on fox was kind of clouded due to personal experience, but no matter how many matches I was in with fox, I came up with those 5 problematic aesthetics with Fox in Smash 4.
1) His attacks lack the range and vertical hitboxes to compete with other ground options af other characters.
I'm mostly talking about Ftilt and Dtilt as their distance can be beaten by jabs from C.Falcon, Sheik, Luigi, Greninja, and others which make him lose the spacing game hard on the ground (I actually secondary Greninja because of this. He's a good mix of Fox and Sheik). I find myself relying on nairs for defensive spacing for the active hitboxes with a mix of surprise bairs because of their resemblance to Ike's bair (except the speed, hitbox and knockback)
2) Kills from Grabs.
Fox, unlike the top 10, doesnt have any kill throws. Even the characters that are arguably under him (Villager) have kill throws. Its hard for him to have kill setups from throws as well.
3) Kill options are predictable
I actually like customs for this reason as well. Twisting Fox kills early for Fox's other options, which are based mostly on prediction. Wolf flash is also good as an off-stage kill if aimed right. The Top 10 doesnt have to commit as much to their kill options.
4) Edge guarding game is terrible.
you pretty much said it all. Fox just isnt that good at securing the kill off-stage. Not only that, but if he was the one being edge guarded, Fire Fox is easy to gimp.
5) Easy to DI out of his setups.
You also mentioned this. I actually like Impact Blaster because of this.

I cant help but have the same worries for Fox as the meta grows. It seems that Fox's spacing options will most likely be his downfall (That is, if it weren't for customs). For vanilla Fox, I'd say hes Top 15.
 

Timbers

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2) Kills from Grabs.
Fox, unlike the top 10, doesnt have any kill throws. Even the characters that are arguably under him (Villager) have kill throws. Its hard for him to have kill setups from throws as well.
3) Kill options are predictable
I actually like customs for this reason as well. Twisting Fox kills early for Fox's other options, which are based mostly on prediction. Wolf flash is also good as an off-stage kill if aimed right. The Top 10 doesnt have to commit as much to their kill options.
4) Edge guarding game is terrible.
you pretty much said it all. Fox just isnt that good at securing the kill off-stage. Not only that, but if he was the one being edge guarded, Fire Fox is easy to gimp.
These are probably his only real issues, but the issues are a result of his other mentioned issues. His kill setups become predictable because he has a terrible throw game and no edgeguard. His throws' flaws are highlighted by him not being able to follow offstage with any edgeguard attempt. Being light and having one of the worst recoveries in the game will theoretically only become worse as players get better and more precise with their edgeguarding - there's no real room for improvement on Fox's recovery. It will remain bad no matter the level of a Fox player's skill with the character.
 

Roll-Spamming-Peasant

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Honestly, after this patch on the 15th hits Diddy and Luigi, Fox is going to rise to top 6 in the game I'm willing to bet.
 

Dee-SmashinBoss

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IMO I think he may be top 20? But not top 10.
He does have several flaws still, but not gonna lie, the no chain grabbing and other things that the new mechanics this game has, does significantly compensate.
I mean he is faster and stuff, but can't camp much
Would you guys say his KOing is the worst in this game compared to others?
I think his main KO moves are Usmash, Uair (Bair?) possible Fsmash. Is what I know mostly.
The new mechanics helped him a lot more then other characters and captain falcon.

Btw can someone explain his customs? What each one does or is there a thread?
 

Takehiko

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(Since I'm going to be picking up fox to complement my peach, I guess I can post here.)
I think a lot of the characters in this game are underrated. It seems that with this game as a whole, people keep trying to find the quick fix (i.e. Most broken thing) and abuse it while the community then bases it as a central reason for the game play to be messed up. (Rosa complaining, Diddy complaining, Soon to be "DK's UpB custom is broken and he's the new meta knight complaning. )
While at the same time the exploration of the game is being left behind. The most disappointing thing is to watch customs tourney and see DK players are the only ones using customs. But back on topic, I think fox and many others are underrated because over shadowing by people trying to shove a character to top tier, so they can complain about them later. However, I think that this will all pan out by either the end of this year or the next when characters metas become fully developed and they burst our forward.
 

luke_atyeo

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1) His attacks lack the range and vertical hitboxes to compete with other ground options af other characters.
I'm mostly talking about Ftilt and Dtilt as their distance can be beaten by jabs from C.Falcon, Sheik, Luigi, Greninja, and others which make him lose the spacing game hard on the ground (I actually secondary Greninja because of this. He's a good mix of Fox and Sheik). I find myself relying on nairs for defensive spacing for the active hitboxes with a mix of surprise bairs because of their resemblance to Ike's bair (except the speed, hitbox and knockback)

this is balanced out by his blinding speed, you have to use that speed to get in on people, and weave around them baiting out whiffs.
Fox has amazing horizontal AND vertical spacing (not many characters have both) in terms of movement, so I disagree that he has poor spacing.
Movement is probably the most important thing in this game, and also the hardest to get right.
 

Legato

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^ This. You are so right about his movement. Fox's fall speed isn't just combo fodder, it allows you to make quick fakes and micro manage positioning. In fact, his slower aerial mobility aids in that function as well oddly enough. If you control positioning, then range is not an issue.

Fox can do safe spacing that let's the opponent feel safe, when he or she really isn't, since Fox can close the gap so quickly. That paired with imo one of the best dash attacks in the game that even serves as a combo starter, then you have some nice options for spacing and getting "in" on an opponent. This is why Fox can compete with Sheik and Greninja.
 

Corgian

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Fox is a confusing character to analyze. I've always held he was top 10 in Smash 4, but is way better in theory than he is in practice. Fox in this game has a ton of things that make him fun, as have been mentioned by many people already.

For almost any issue people can mention about Fox, there is counterpoint. He can do everything the rest of the top-tiers can (combo, kill, stage control), and it shows. The only thing that is a massive stain on his viability is his recovery, which is nothing new. Fox has always had very predictable, gimpable recovery. You have to be careful and think carefully about how you plan to get back if you're off the stage. Customs totally help with this, seeing as Twisting Fox and Flying Fox change his recovery to scarier or faster, respectively. He may not have an off-stage game, but in all honestly, I don't think he needs one. He's so good on-stage, you'd hardly notice. Fox is a great character that isn't top 5, and I'm totally fine with this. I don't think he's overrated nor underrated. I just think he used to be underplayed due the precision he requires, and trouble fighting the old top 5. Since 1.0.6, I've seen Fox usage boom because the matchups have changed and the development of the customs meta has made him slightly more viable. I expect to see more people gain an appreciation of this character as time goes on, but I don't see an overwhelming divide in the perception of the character.
 
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Foster J.

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For almost any issue people can mention about Fox, there is counterpoint. He can do everything the rest of the top-tiers can (combo, kill, stage control), and it shows.
You know this isn't really the case, the thing is Fox is one of the only top tier characters without a throw setup. Sheik has Dthrow to Uair / Up Special. ZSS has Bthrow to Down Special. And Diddy had Hoo Haa, but still retains his Uthrow to Uair.

Fox doesn't have any real decent throw options, and this is honestly the main reason why you can be struggling with this character, cause just like with Sheik, it can be hard to kill, because fishing for kill will end up giving them a free punish.

But having decent stage control doesn't give you free kills, as off stage Fox's aerials have long duration, making it hard for you to fast fall it for a hit. Meaning ledge trumping is one of your best options, but the way it works, is he'd have to go for the ledge, as you can rarely just pop of the ledge with a Bair, as you're not Captain Falcon, thus the majority of your options exist on stage, meaning Fox have poor gimping potential due to the risk of his linear recovery and being a fast faller without the biggest jumps.
 
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luke_atyeo

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Fox is a confusing character to analyze. I've always held he was top 10 in Smash 4, but is way better in theory than he is in practice.

I agree with this, I think at a top level fox requires probably more precision than any other character in the game.
Mistakes hurt fox a lot, and its easier to make mistakes due to the difficulty of the character.

Thats a good thing though, it stops fox being spammed by everyone which makes him boring for us and everyone learns the matchup inside out.
I've always felt that making the best characters also the hardest to play is really good game design, unfrotunatly that hasnt really been the case in smash history but whatever.
when you are playing in the zone with fox, its a beautiful feeling.

He does lack in 2 areas though, foster is right he does lack that throw setup that the other top characters have. I've found that up throw can sometimes put you in positions to get an uair kill or to pressure them with uairs which can lead to getting a usmash punish on them, but against a really good player they'll just di out over the stage, going out and around back to the ledge, taking advantage of foxes other weakness, which as mentioned is his lack of any real offstage game.

I've found that focusing on getting really good at reading and punishing your opponents ledge getup options can make up for that lack of offstage game though. jumping up and down with an nair ready can actually beat almost all their getup options, if you read a roll from them you get an usmash if you are on the ball and a dsmash if you are a bit slower to react, you can dsmash them in the 1 frame ledge grab vunerabiliy depending on the character.
If the oppoenent does a regular getup (pressing forward on the ledge) there is a small window, I think 2 frames? where they are vunerable at the end of the animation but cant act yet, fsmash can hit that window pretty easily since it lingers and thats usually a kill for you. some characters will drop off the ledge and double jump onto the stage with an aerial, depending on the character you can beat it out with an fsmash. also standing at the edge can bait out getup attacks, you can walk away from the attack and then fsmash back at it (probably doesnt work well against top players who've figured out that getup attack is a **** option and wont do it)


Also with customs on fox does actually get an offstage game, laser 2 can take away double jumps for occasional gimps, and then there this...



anyways if you couldnt be bothered reading my ****ty long wall of text, take this to heart.
Fox in melee used to be considered the best in theory but not in practice because he was too hard to use.
As time went on and people got better at the game and better at fox, that sentiment went away.
Stick to fox and you'll be rewarded in the long run.
 

DavemanCozy

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We have jab -> jab -> U-smash, which is guaranteed on most of the top / high tiers at KO range. If we don't get a KO throw, so be it.
 

Corgian

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We have jab -> jab -> U-smash, which is guaranteed on most of the top / high tiers at KO range. If we don't get a KO throw, so be it.
Heeeey, its that counterpoint thing I was talking about. :p
 
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nubilepoopile

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I think a lot of people want to play Fox, but get intimidated by the timing you need to pull off some of his bread and butter combos. I Probably spent more time in training with Fox before I knew what I was doing than any other character I play.
 

IrkenPPG

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Fox is a bit underrated in Smash 4. I'd say he is definately top 15. He is a great competitive character and I think more people need to use him in tournaments, Just because he isn't like he was in melee that doesn't make him "sluggish"
 

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He's certainly not a character you can play on autopilot nor just pick up and play.

Imo, he's top 10. Around 8th - 9th place in my tier list
 

Driller7

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Focks is great in Smash 4. He just has too much good going for him to be underrated, and he is one of, if not the best tech chaser in the roster.
 
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