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Fox = No Bueno (and why)

Valken

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
137
I am a die-hard Foxer. I enjoy light weight Foxing (ok, I'm done being clever) and in Brawl I loved him from the moment I layed fingers on him. I won with him, alot, but I soon discovered I was working alot harder than other players who were playing other characters. I would run gauntlet. I learned that you couldn't combo with him so I was all about using his speed and shining to hit, dodge, hit, dodge and other stuff to controll the battle.

But then I learned.

I learned that since you can't combo, it's all about the approach. Fox's approach moves are limited at best. This made most of Fox's moves pretty much forgotten. Not to mention the ability to mid air dodge so easily made his airials much more situational. The only one that K/O's is u/air which is hard to hit with do to the angle of the hit box.

Now let's talk about the moves that you can use with Fox if you successfully mid/dodge an attack. Jab, works well. F/tilt, works but can be punished if blocked do to recovery time that's just a bit to long. D/tilt, suprisingly slower in brawl and I'm not sure why, but none the less easily blockable. U/tilt, works well but easy to recover from and puts them in a good position to hit you.

His d/smash is quick and good to follow after a dodge but if you miss, it's easily the most punishable. Foward smash is good but punishable. Suprisingly enough his u/smash seems to be the least punishable and most effective when trying to get in a hit with fox.

His dash attack is quick and moves you foward but is easily block thrown.

I'm not bashing on Fox, I love him. I'm just saying that do to his limited knock back and limited stun time on his attacks, his arsenal of safe moves is limited.

NOW TO THE POINT!

With the fact that moves decay in this game, you have to save your K/O moves for when you need them. In Fox's case (not counting shinespike) it's his u/smash or d/smash if very damaged, or f/smash if very very damaged.

Now since these moves are also his most useful attacks mid battle, by the time you need them they are weak. If you save his u/smash for when you need it you will just be working do ****ed hard the whole match.

Fox is good. He's high tier no doubt. If you do enough dodging you can win any fight. You will just be at a huge disadvantage because you will not be able to K/O till much higher percentages. Fox used to be a really fast character with amazing shine and great u/smash. Now his a really fast character with a pretty good shine and a pretty good u/smash.

If you put as much effort into, let's say, Wolf as you would need to with Fox, Wolf would have a broken advantage over fox. This is why I say Fox is no bueno.

It pains me to say this.

IN LOVING MEMORY OF THE GREATEST CHARACTER IN MELEE
He was constantly criticized by Marth and Shiek for being below them in the tiers but in the end he, alone with Falco, ran melee and owned the top tier.
God bless him.
 

ThaDirtyG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
100
Location
Toronto
It's a harsh criticism, but definitely true. I played Wolf before trying Fox and there is no doubt that I work harder with Fox.

Too bad I just find it so **** fun :p
 

Valken

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
137
Exactly.

Fox is The Man!

There is no way around that.

Even though it's not as effective, how many characters have a shinespike?
He has multiple advanced techniques with names that only he has. Amazing.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
OH
Melee fox will always be better in the same way that melee Captain Falcon will always be better. It's just a sad fact of life that Nintendo nerfed the best characters in order to give people like Yoshi and Kirby more of a fighting chance.
 

ThaDirtyG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
100
Location
Toronto
Haha, looks like it :p

Fox has killer potential however and I feel like he will definitely come into his own in the future. It's just the speed: foxtrotting with him feels great, and his falling speed is quick and I like that.

I really like the feeling of jumping and fast falling, and this is mostly gone after Melee where it was lightning quick. Fox can still pull off some decent speeds.

I also like the challenge of using his shine effectively. Jump shining is difficult to pull off but seems quite effective in the right situations. His SHDL is tricky to pull off with zero lag and I have yet to do a SHTL (something to work towards!).

I guess what I'm getting at is just that Fox has a lot of difficult techniques that seem really useful if they're mastered. I don't feel that there are too many characters who can say that in Brawl.

FOX FTW!
 

RevN

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
186
Location
Miami, FL
I agree fox was the best in melee, even though they nerfed him in brawl I think he has potential but wolf is easier to use than fox

Even though wolf is easier... i rather go with fox.. fox has some what speed and in my opnion a better shine, but your right melee hes a god, i loved wave shining alot, but in this game its not about being technical its doin everything...
 

Valken

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
137
You hit the nail on the head RevN!

It's not about being technical, it's about using all of your moves so they don't decay.

I think the decaying of moves will definately be a major factor in determining character's effectiveness.
 

CurryLad

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
55
Location
losers bracket
I have been trying to main diddy since fox has been nerfed, but for some peculiar reason, i always happen to pick him for harder fights in the subspace.
 

ThaDirtyG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
100
Location
Toronto
"True" combos really don't exist at all in Brawl because it seems that in any chain of attacks, a skilled player can escape at some point, assuming they do it right.

The result of this I think needs to be seen. Hopefully it results in extremely competitive gameplay where good players can constantly escape dangerous combos only to set up their own, jumping back and forth between chains of attack in that way.

I think that in this style of gameplay Fox is very well equiped because he has plenty of quick moves that combo nicely.
 

super_bacon807

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
143
I don't think we should count out Fox just yet.

I mean, Brawl barely came out in the US a week ago. We have to give it a year or two before we find out who's the best and who's not. Of course, as new advance techs are discovered, the "best" character will change every now and then. Fox could very well end up on top. We just have to give it TIME.

As I see it, there are two main reasons why Fox doesn't seem so good. The most obvious one was that he was nerfed REALLY BADLY. As a Fox main, I think that was greatly needed to balance out the game. But think about this: didn't developers try to balance the game during the period from SSB64 to SSBM? The three best characters in SSB64 (Pikachu, Kirby, Ness) were nerfed beyond belief. And I'm sure when Melee first came out, Fox seemed like a bad character as well, with his unstunning Blaster and fast, jerky movements. Melee Fox a bad character? Yeah right.

Another reason why Fox doesn't seem so good is the fact that most Brawl Fox mains are playing Fox as if he was Melee Fox. The reality is that he isn't. Granted, I just can't seem to get out of mind that uThrow to uAir just doesn't work in Brawl. Or that up-smashing like a maniac won't kill consistently. Or that shining a person off stage doesn't mean auto-kill anymore. Or that waveshining is out. Fox now has a new playstyle that sort of molds the techniques from both SSB64 Fox (which I have no competitive experience in) and Melee Fox. We'll just have to capitalize on Fox's advantages and defend his weaknesses.

The point of this long essay-like post is, like in Melee, Fox didn't start out on top, but as years went by, he finally beat all the others and rose as the best. I believe that this will happen to Brawl Fox as well. He just seems to have some hidden and untapped potential that we have yet to see, and I'm eagerly waiting to find out what it is.

(And with this post, I just realized that I have upgraded from Smash n00b to Smash child. w00t!)
 

jnolan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 20, 2006
Messages
192
Location
Darien, IL
With what I have seen of Fox, and played of him... as well as what I have seen/played of Wolf, I would have to say this:

At a lower level, wolf is by far easier, and better. Yet IMO Fox holds more potential. So although wolf starts off ahead, my man McCloud will in the end, be the better of the two.
 

Deskclerk

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
5
Location
Houston, TX
well said, super bacon. well said.

im sticking with fox for now, at least, but playing zelda on the side. =p just to make sure i dont get screwed two years later when fox might end up in the lower tier. but of course, its possible both zelda AND fox are put in a lower tier...

or both are put into a high tier =)
 

Ryan-K

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Messages
3,107
Location
Staten Island, NY
"True" combos really don't exist at all in Brawl because it seems that in any chain of attacks, a skilled player can escape at some point, assuming they do it right.

The result of this I think needs to be seen. Hopefully it results in extremely competitive gameplay where good players can constantly escape dangerous combos only to set up their own, jumping back and forth between chains of attack in that way.

I think that in this style of gameplay Fox is very well equiped because he has plenty of quick moves that combo nicely.
Yeah except the drill to utilt is an actual combo because of how it works, floatiness has little to no effect on the combo not to mention it does alot of hits and forces them to the ground.

Also your secnod statement toally contradicted yourself. How would high level play revolve around escaping combos to "set up their own (dangerous comboes)" when you JUST said you can't combo/ can escape them?

Think man think
 

NESSBOUNDER

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,167
Location
somewhere sunny
"True" combos DO exist though. Certain characters at least are pretty adept at it.

Lucario for instance has a lot of good low-damage attack strings that actually combo. He can even combo up to 30% on most characters using his side B special alone.

Lucas's landing Nair to Utilt is a true combo, and so are all footstool attacks (attacking with a fast low aerial or special directly out of a footstool jump. Wario Waft for example.)
 

sesshomaru

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2004
Messages
303
Location
Inwood, WV
i put alot of emphasis on this for you people posting....**SHAME**

fox no bueno? fox so muy bueno it should make your eyes bleed. its just gettin started and trust me fox has alot of potential yet to be found. im not perfect at this game but my fox is gettin somewhere. countin him out and throwin around the word nerfed when its the playstyle that was nerfed is predictable seeing how different melee and brawl are. it should not make u drop fox though or think that hes not the match controller he once was. give him time, im finding hes best played slow and campy in the start and very offensive near the end. problem is as a fox main campy isnt something i, or most fox players, wanna do. patience with him is key though as his moves are very situational but punish severely when the right one hits at the right time. true fox players will learn this while tier whores will simply move on to meta knight and others. i for one will also get great satisfaction when i beat them with my fox too.
 

ThaDirtyG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
100
Location
Toronto
"True" combos DO exist though. Certain characters at least are pretty adept at it.
I have yet to see any true combos. There are definately combo possibilities but in general the hit stun is short enough on attacks that at any point during a "combo" an individual can perfect shield, roll, air dodge, or any other defensive movement.

I don't think that combos that consist of using the same move qualify as combos either.

I'm not trying to say this is necessarily bad, just that (at the very least) the argument that combos are not as prominent as they were in Melee appears to be quite safe.
 

Ryan-K

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Messages
3,107
Location
Staten Island, NY
I have yet to see any true combos. There are definately combo possibilities but in general the hit stun is short enough on attacks that at any point during a "combo" an individual can perfect shield, roll, air dodge, or any other defensive movement.

I don't think that combos that consist of using the same move qualify as combos either.
Then maybe you should play the game because even though there are few comboes lucario and fox can combo.

How does not using the same move qualify as a combo? That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. That means loads of characters in melee can't combo which is a really ****ing dumb thing to say LMFAO.
 

waks

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
281
LOL yeah, thats kinda stupid..

Like ryan said, then waveshine in melee wouldnt even count as a combo LOL
 

ThaDirtyG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
100
Location
Toronto
That sounds fair. I was under the impression that people did not consider combos using the same move as combos, but I guess I was responding too quickly. I forgot to consider some of the difficult techniques such as waveshining, or Marth's in-air Fair juggling (into a Ken combo :p). My argument was merely that in Melee there were combos that were, for the most part, inescapable if the attacker pulled them off correctly, and in Brawl I have not been able to find many. I could be wrong about Melee I suppose as I was not pro and had only been playing the game seriously for about a year before Brawl came out so, relative to many members here, my experience was somewhat limited.

I didn't mean to invoke the fury of SWF with the comment, I was only trying to make my point.

That being said, I am very interested to know what combos I should be using with Fox because thus far I have found nothing that is not escapable.

Looking forward to the replies :)
 

jimbob13ia

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
7
Location
Johnston, Iowa
fox is my best character in Melee and I have to say, I can't do very well with him in Brawl. Reduced speed, no jumping out of the shine, limited shine spiking, and no wave shine really make me want to go play as marth or pit.
 

super_bacon807

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 15, 2006
Messages
143
We just have to find new, more effective techniques for the Brawl Fox, which I am certain that there are.

You can go ahead and switch to an easier character to use. I, for one, however, am a die-hard Fox main, and he will remain my main even if drops to the lower part of the tier list (which I highly doubt).

We need to stop playing Brawl Fox as Melee Fox, because he isn't. I can't repeat this enough times.
 

Spyda

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 22, 2007
Messages
364
Location
Houston, TX
WOLF LOOKs like a little girl... seriously.. his upsmash is some lame gymnastics move... fox is the man!
 
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