Fox Match-up

[kofinater]

So we've done 2 MU threads thus far, here is the one for fox. I'll post a new one every monday and also make a General Matchup Thread that links to these threads as well as old ones that aren't broken. Does anyone know how to go about getting that thread stickied? as well as the "Some Yoshi Information" thread that thread is god- ike.

1. Stages/CPing
2. Positioning
3. Neutral game
4. Punish game
5. Combo starters/combos/finishers
6. Mixups

Thoughts?

 

[kofinater]

Ok, so to me this is a Matchup that is very hard, but at the same time i feel like i can still think of some counterplay to a lot of the things that make it hard. aMSa says this is the hardest MU and i still think that title belongs to Peach, but maybe that is just a personal problem since i lose to bad peachs but the foxes i lose to are around the same level or strictly better than me, but with out further ado my thoughts on the MU.

Spoiler: 1.Stages/CPing

So I think stage choice in this MU is very much fox style and i don't have any automatic stage choices in the MU. but I'll go thought the list of stages in roughly the order of which ones i'll prefer to fight fox at.
1. Battlefield:
I think this is hands down the best stage in the MU. Edge guarding is simpler without the wall, the stage isn't super big so fox can't camp for free, blastzones aren't bad. If i have the option to strike here i will every single time, imo the stage is the perfect size to gauge the fox's style which will be important when I discuss the other stages. I'm of the opinon that if you can't win against the fox you shouldn't be able to win the set since there are 2 other stages the will only serve to augment his style.

2. Yoshi's Story:
This one favors the aggressive fox and will hinder the campy fox a bit, I'll strike to this if BF isn't available. I personally have been working my randall awareness and wavelanding on randall gives a good mixup during recovery. Edge canceled eggs can cover this whole stage but be aware of the timer since Randall will kill you if you throw them at the wrong time. The only real problem is the upwards blastzones are low, and fox can get pretty early kills off the top.

3. Fountain of Dreams:
This one is really nice since the upper blastzone is high and the platforms can mess up some short hop approaches from an aerial happy fox. The style of fox i wouldn't want to take here is one the camps with uptilt and backair, since at certain platform heights it becomes a bit tricky to maneuver around those along with the fact that when the platforms are low sheild drop upair won't come out.

4. Dreamland:
If the fox is pretty aggro but doesn't use platforms to the fullest this stage is actually super good, the problem comes with run away foxes, the stage is so large it becomes tricky even catch fox let alone get a solid combo starter.

5. Pokemon Stadium
Awful stage, I hate playing here so much, Ceiling is low, the stage is huge, the transformations help fox so much and the starter transformations platforms are super far apart.

6. Final Destination
This is probably the worst stage but i end up banning Stadium cause i don't like it. The plus side about this is that the combo game is simple. Recovering here is hard since here are no platforms to mixup to. Also the stage is large so fox can run a away pretty well, one benefit of no platforms is that he can't use them to escape from the corner here.

Will post the rest at a later time, have to sleep finals week coming up.

 

[winrus]

You should finish this. this is good stuff!

 

[Noyu]

Here's my opinions on stages when vs. Fox.

Yoshi's Story-Worst platformed stage. Every top tier character seems to like it, and so many yoshi's like it. I know I'm probably going to get egg'd over this. On yoshi's, Fox's up-smash kills at rediculously low percents. Fox's up-air kills at low percents. aMSa chooses it a lot, but he's a very smart aggressive yoshi player and yoshi can do really cool tricks on the platforms. Fox can wall yoshi's out with a bair if you're off stage really easily and his sakurai combo is really good there. Fox also can recover quite easily and has wall jumps. Randall imo helps fox more than yoshi especially when it comes to edge cancelled eggs seeing how Randall can pop out and screw you up. I'd give it for this matchup, a 5/10.

Fountain of Dreams-Best Platformed stage against fox. High ceiling, unpredicatable platforms (better for a yoshi who is comfortable in wavelanding), and great for gimps since many attacks knock fox off-stage really quickly. Fair goes through low platforms and a full-hop fair can hit a foe standing on the top platform. Your up-smash can also go through platforms. I feel yoshi is a character who needs waveland-movement as well as crouch cancel abuse. Short leveled platforms can stop fox's SH dair. I give this stage 10/10.

Pokemon Stadium-I'd never pick this stage. The ceiling is too low, stage transformations are good for eggs, but the benefit isn't that great unless you're a good egg camper. Up-smash goes through platforms on neutral barely. Egg roll on this stage can work really well on Air (windmill) transformation. Again, the CEILING IS TOO LOW. I give this 3/10.

Dreamland-Best wide-ground stage. You'll be Ko'd at high percents. If you're fast enough at wavelanding getting laser camped is not a problem (this might not be the case with Falco). Down throw->upair combos can end with them DI'ing onto a platform which can make the combo chain longer for yoshi. There's also this thing I'm pretty good at where I fast fall and fair when I'm knocked really high by an up-smash and DI to the right or left. Basically a fast-fall fair covers a lot of space-time. If you anticipate the fox's jump to try to bair you (which I assume 100% of the time), FAIR REALLY EARLY and begin to fast fall, you may just get an easy kill. I can't stress the EARLY part enough. This a quite reliable strategy. I see many yoshi's only fairing when they can guarantee the fox is going to be grounded. Let's say your fair misses, who cares? You probably scared them from jumping and you still have your airdodge or egg roll for the little hop you may need. The chance of them punishing a fast-fall fair is slim if done correctly.
I give this stage for the fox matchup a 8/10.

Final Destination- Don't pick this stage either FOR FOX, for other characters this stage is fine. No platforms for maneuvering. I don't believe eggs can go all the way across and if i'm wrong, it's still probably not safe constantly doing full-distanced ledge eggs. The ceiling is not too low, but usually at this stage i find foxes liking to up-smash a lot at. Great for down-throw up air chains but not as nice for an agressive yoshi who should use platforms to his advantage. I can't speak about laser camping but I assume it's really good for foxes on this stage. I give this 6.5/10.


Battlefield- Great stage for many reasons. Good platforms, good ledges that punish a sloppy fox's recovery, and a not-so-bad ceiling height. There is no randall and my fair trick can work here quite well. I do go for quick gimps with forward and back throw on this stage and if you and fox are below a platform they probably won't jump so you can get the grab and when you throw them Randall won't catch them.

I give this stage an 8/10 like dreamland.

:D

(((((I am a defensive yoshi who enjoys parrying, edge cancelled eggs, and going deep for gimps but never being stupid enough to suicide. In my opinion double jump cancels are an unviable way to play yoshi unless they are coming after a grab or are being used in a tech chase scenario, so if you're the agro-djc nair on shield yoshi like many I've seen, this won't apply to you. I like leffen's yoshi a lot and some of aMSa's style is not my type. I hate trading/getting killed at low percents/being hit out of super armor/ taking chances. I crouch a lot and take advantage of Yoshi's bulk and usually live to 100+ on most lives. I'm not reading what OP said as this opinion is my own, feel free to critique.)))))