Fox Match-up thread (Stair Fax Temperatures)

[Berserker.]

Discuss vs

 

[The_Goofyborn]

Oh boy, this is a rough one for us in my humble opinion. Of course, we have to stick to the usual game plan of keeping them out of our zone, but Fox is a bit different in the sense that he can switch from an offensive playstyle to a defensive one on the fly.

Honestly, I find this match-up to be very similar to the Captain Falcon one. I think we should be focusing on keeping him out, and getting pokes at him ( possibly using Buster for more shield damage) but if or when Fox gets in, we're gonna really feel it. Fox is a quick mamal and someone who is very string/combo based in my experience and Shulk's lack of a quick aerial makes us combo food. Not to mention his laser pressure from far away.

Another threat from him are his punishes. Having such quick smash attacks, you can bet your bottom dollar a good Fox won't hesitate to give us a quick butterfly-kick to the face for a nice punish, so we need to make sure we stick to low-lag moves to prevent easy damage. I honestly think Buster may be of service to us in this match up, simply because of Fox's fast falling speed. Buster up-throw to utilt works on Fox longer than it should, but we still need to play careful and space, Fox does enough damage without Buster active.

Last couple points I have are that Fox has an incredibly predictable recovery and Fox's relatively light weight. Even with all of this in mind, I'm very tempted to say the match-up is even at best, if not just slightly in Fox's favor, but I'd love to hear others insight on this.

 

[Timbers]

I think Shulk has a lot of room to grow as a character, and until he reaches this point then it feels like an easy MU for Fox. It's hard to give an absolute opinion against Shulk, because I would not be surprised to see new and interesting things coming from Shulk as he develops. My current impressions, however:

I disagree that Shulk should ever be in buster in this MU. Outside of Speed, Fox can easily camp out Shulk and wait for the Monado to complete its duration. Speed and Jump should probably be your go-tos, as they're the only two Monado's that should force Fox's hand. Speed gives Shulk a way to bait out Fox's limited approach options, while also having a great grab that leads to followups against Fox. Jump has its own place in this MU as it gives Shulk the very real possibility of edgeguarding Fox to death.

Shulk is also one of the easier characters in the roster to jab cancel as Fox, and it's easy to keep pressure on in general against Shulk as he has no quick aerials, and Shulk's counter is awkward in the air.

Shulk does do really well at keeping Fox from gaining any sort of stage control, and should Fox be backed into a corner, it becomes very hard for him to break through Shulk's wall of disjoints. Outside of that though, it seems like Shulk just really struggles, and Fox can disrespect his slow aerial game and lackluster approach options.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Yeah not a fan of this match up. Foxes jab lock works really well on Shulk (no way to break out of it in Vanilla I believe outside of just trying slowly DI and eventually jump out). He can also combo into jab which make it harder to avoid. His other arts do affect how the lock works though but I don't remember how. @Masonomace has done the lab work for it so hopefully you could enlighten us. And even if he doesn't want to jab lock cause idk, he feels scummy for doing it or something, he can still grab you or hit you with a tilt or get a smash attack on you out of jab 2.

He's also annoying hard to edgeguard unless he's below the stage where his options are super limited. It could just be I need more practice but intercepting Fox Illusion seems like a real pain unless you just position yourself where Fox will stop (in which he simply just doesn't use it unless he absolutely has to) or catch him during the start up.

Fox is also one of the characters you really want to space your recoveries well against and probably want to avoid staying on the ledge. Dsmash hits below the ledge and is possible of hitting you through your ledge invincibility if Fox has the timing down.

I also feel like Shulk needs to be one trying to pressure Fox since he has the projectile, and since Fox is very good at punishing Shulks moves, he can just wait for Shulk to hit a button and punish accordingly. This could also just be a personal issue but I also have problems with Fox when he feels like approaching me as well. Nair and dair seem safe on block, if I try to punish an aerial approach with utilt or nair it feels foxes vertical airspeed is enough to just double jump and quickly fall back down and punish me. Dash Attack I know if punishable on block but I don't know if it's punishable on spot dodge if i was trying to avoid a grab, which also feels safe for fox even if I spot dodge.

Again could just be me as a player but I think it's an easy match up for Fox.

 

[Berserker.]

I was already on boat with saying that Fox was our hardest match up

I'm still correct about it. I hate this match up. I don't think it's a hard counter/3:7/-3 match up but it's definitely a -2 imo.

Shulk definitely has range. Speed and jump will help. Speed allows you to space while being mobile, and you can bait out Fox's rushdown options. Jump can lead to some seriously early kills or gimps (I managed to KO some Fox at FD with n-air > f-air >f-air at ~55%). I think my biggest gripe with this match up is how easy it is for Fox to bait Shulk into doing anything. Once Shulk makes a mistake, he's going to eat a lot of damage and he can't do much about it.

I WILL say, counter/vision (grounded, of course) works well in this match up. Landing KO's on Fox is difficult so pretty much most of my KO's actually come from countering u-smash with any art activated (sans buster) and countering weak damaging attacks like his f-tilt or d-tilt,etc. with smash art activated (near the edge)

I'm convinced that this is a -2

 

[Deleted member]

I would make a long informative post about both characters, but I don't have too much knowledge on Fox. That being said, I'll keep this brief.

Shulk's laggy attacks are a big liability here against Fox, who has great aerials, amazingly quick attacks with little end-lag, and can easily rush down on Shulk with smash attacks. Not only that, but Fox can u-tilt combo Shulk for days.
Never go for Buster, never go for Smash, rarely use Shield. Speed and Jump are by far the best Arts to use against Fox. Speed can help you space against Fox while Jump will help you make some quick escapes. Shulk's Vision also works well here, but the issue is Fox's baiting.
The thing with Fox is that he is just too good at baiting against Shulk. He might force Shulk to do a smash attack and then follow-up with his own attack or force Shulk to Vision only to up smash him.
It's just hard to get in on Fox and I think Shulk's spacing game is weakened because of that. Characters like Captain Falcon and Little Mac also have this speed, but Shulk has the tools to space them; his tools are severely weakened against Fox because he can rush in, shield, and just give Shulk a hard time.

Overall... this match-up is 60:40 Fox in my opinion. There is just too much Fox can do to hurt Shulk and there is little Shulk can do to respond to it.

This is why second mains and secondaries exist. If you are against a Fox, I recommend that you go to a different character that can handle him.

 

[Berserker.]

I think it's a -2. I don't think it's a 60:40. It's a 65:35 Fox imo unless you guys think overblowing it too much. I'd still opt to use Shulk but I come in knowing that I'm going to need outplay the opponent to actually beat him.

 

[DavemanCozy]

The two characters that I've spent the most time with in this Smash game.

Fox is my main, while Shulk is my secondary. All of this post is going to be very long as a result, but I can tell you I've tested all this data to the best of my non-frame perfect ability.

Some Fox things

- Among the fastest overall fighters. 4th fastest dashing speed, 2nd fastest walking speed, fastest vertical air speed. All these in combination make Fox's lack of range in most of his moves moot, he can chase Shulk to the ends of the earth or run away to shoot lasers.
- Jab on frame 2, U-tilt on frame 3, Dash Attack on frame 4 (lasts all the way up to frame 15), F-tilt and D-smash on frame 6. All these moves are faster than or just as fast as Shulk's jab on frame 6.
- D-air and F-air have multiple hitboxes and can be used to frame trap. N-air is long lasting hitbox and can be used for frame traps as well. Keeping this in mind with Fox's vertical momentum, air-dodging can be dangerous.
- Fox has the shortest amount of start up in his jump: he takes 4 frames to leave the ground. He can chase very fast, regardless if you're above him or far from him.

+ Despite Fox's startup data, he does have cool-down in his moves, most notably his smash attacks.
+ Fox has lost his way of forcing approaches efficiently. Lasers are no longer as reliable as they used to be.
+ A global change is that all characters lost the ability to shield to interrupt fox-trots. This hurt Fox a lot, since he can't run in with shield until the fox-trot (ie, dash startup) animation is finished.
^ This means that the best way to space out Fox is just outside his fox-trot distance and play footsies. Watch out for pivot and walk-up anything, since his walking speed is still quite fast, and side-B mixups.

The MU

The only time Shulk is at an advantage is when Fox is offstage, as he has a very predictable recovery and Shulk can go deeeep and far offstage with Jump. Fox wins the ground, neutral, and everything else.

• You can interrupt Side-B recoveries with F-smash, F-air, and D-air.

If you toss Fox up in the air:

• Careful of landing N-airs and D-airs. U-tilt will beat both these options, but you gotta be fast since Fox falls really fast.
• Fox can only stall once with Shine in the air (or rather, he should only stall once, as the second time won't hold him there long). This was nerfed in this game.
• Side-B lets Fox escape to the other side of the stage very quickly and has very little landing lag. However, the unorthodox Back-slash can actually get there fast enough when he lands from it, depending on how far you are from him.

Speed monado ties Shulk's dash speed with Fox's for 4th fastest running speeds: both are put on the same speed tier in terms of dashes. Shulk's walking speed becomes the fastest in the game.

Jab -> Jab 2 is an infinite on Shulk at any percent, though Fox must be frame perfect if Shulk is below 25%.

• Below 20%, Shulk can escape if he has Shield equipped by DIing down: he'll land right away and be able to grab Fox before his next set of jabs come out, thanks to the added weight.
  • This is a RISKY strategy, however, since Fox can also throw a U-tilt to start comboing you. Being in Shield and getting combo'd is not worth, even if the damage Shulk receives is lessened.
• If he's hitting you with the jab while you're slightly above the ground (ie, let's say you short-hopped and a jab stuffed you), since it takes longer for you to fall back to the ground, Vision counter here would activate before you land on the ground and suffer landing lag.
  • ONLY try to counter it if you get hit by the first jab while you were in the air. If you were standing, use jab or grab.
• Additional notes on jab -> jab 2:
  • You can also escape the jab -> jab 2 barrage if Fox spaces incorrectly:
    • DI in if he's hitting you close to his body. The second jab will make him step forward, missing the next string of jabs.
      ^ Beware of a follow-up U-tilt or turnaround grab, however.
    • DI away if he's hitting you right on the tip of his fists and if you're in Speed. Careful of the run up U-smash though.
  • Fox steps forward with jab 2, which means he'll run out of stage eventually and won't allow it to be a "true" infinite.
  • The second jab can make Fox step off a ledge. Be mindful of where you are, since Fox can act out of walking offstage into a N-air or potentially deadly F-air spike.

Buster and Smash, like Shield, are a risk in this MU:

• Fox's damage output isn't as scary as it was in Brawl's, but he still racks up respectable damage up close.
• Fox can also just run away while in these modes and shoot lasers.
  • If you are in Buster, Smash, Vanilla, or Shield especially, Foxes that like to run away and get greedy with lasers can get a nasty surprise with our dash attack. The long lunge forward can hit them to punish the guns lag. This will not work on smart Fox players who know when to stop shooting lasers though.
• Buster equipped means you also deal a lot more shieldstun and pushback, something Fox doesn't like being a light-weight character.
  • Make good use of the better range in this Monado against Foxes that like to use dash -> shield or walk -> shield to get in, this is how you will keep them off of you.
  • I recommend referring to Berserker's guide on Buster mode in the Shulk board.
• Smash equipped is safe at the start of the stock, where the risk of getting KO'd is low and getting knocked farther away serves us well to escape the vortex of Fox.

Other Monado advantages and notes:

• Jump short-hop B-airs come out just in time as you get close to the ground. Tomahawk jumps are risky since Fox can easily snipe with his own B-air, U-air and N-air, but if you get the read they're effective to land the grab on Fox.
• Speed use fading N-airs and F-airs to keep Fox out. After landing, use d-tilt if Fox is running at you or U-tilt if he's trying short-hop / tomahawk jump approaches.
• Shield lets Shulk punish Fox's Smash attacks using an F-smash out-of-shield.
• Buster on a 20% or less Fox: D-throw -> F-smash does 35% damage. At 25% and more, you can chase him with dash attacks if he starts DIing far away from you. At more than that, after 55%, F-throw -> Dash Attack, F-smash or F-air (dependent on DI) is hard to escape. Vision is gawd-like in this Monado as well.
• Smash helps out for KOs on the light character Fox is, and again is safe when at low percents.

Vision:

• Absolutely awful if Fox baits it, but absolutely incredible if you manage to land the counter.
• A Vision counter has turned the tides in this MU more times than I can count. To put it in perspective, a countered Fox Up-smash can KO him at ~50% from centre stage Final Destination, and this is not counting Power Vision.
• In layman's terms, be very smart about how you go using Vision, watch what Fox is doing carefully to find your openings.

Stages:

• Avoid Battlefield, Final Destination, Halberd, and Town & City.
• Smashville, Castle Siege, and Delfino are definitive recommendations.
• Lylat and Duck Hunt: if you like them. Otherwise, avoid them.

I've covered just about as much as came to mind regarding what Shulk can do in this MU and what will happen to him.

IMO:
35:65 in Fox's favor. (-2 Shulk)

In conclusion, I believe that Fox wins this with a notable advantage. Shulk's neutral game is slow, which means Fox can bait out his footsies and get in on him as soon as he makes the first mistake.
As I covered above in all my points though, there are things that you can keep in mind during the MU.

EDIT: added notes on offstage and stages. Cleaned up the post as well.

As a final note, I can't stress this enough: Fox can't shield to interrupt his fox-trot (dash startup) anymore like he could in previous games. You CAN play footsies with him if you think he'll dash forward. Stay just outside his fox-trot distance and space him there.
Learning this distance and using your range correctly will be what takes this matchup from 25:75 in Fox's favour to 35:65. It's that vital to learn how to play footsies vs Fox.

 

[Berserker.]

This match up is a -2. This match up was obviously a -2

Good **** though Davey

Not much posts but hey, we all saw this coming haha

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I was gonna post on this MU after just finding it given the few times i've fought @Masonomace 's Shulk with Fox (and seen how clear Fox has an advantage in it), but Daveman and Timbers (who are the real Fox mains here lol, i can't compare) already gave us the deets on the MU. I had a feeling this was our worse MU. But on the bright side, if this is our Worst MU, i guess we can be proud to say that we do better against most the tops/S tier than we do against Fox.

At least i have ZSS to fall back on for this match up, heh.

 

[Sonny Franceschi]

The two characters that I've spent the most time with in this Smash game.

Fox is my main, while Shulk is my secondary. All of this post is going to be very long as a result, but I can tell you I've tested all this data to the best of my non-frame perfect ability.

Some Fox things

- Among the fastest overall fighters. 4th fastest dashing speed, 2nd fastest walking speed, fastest vertical air speed. All these in combination make Fox's lack of range in most of his moves moot, he can chase Shulk to the ends of the earth or run away to shoot lasers.
- Jab on frame 2, U-tilt on frame 3, Dash Attack on frame 4 (lasts all the way up to frame 15), F-tilt and D-smash on frame 6. All these moves are faster than or just as fast as Shulk's jab on frame 6.
- D-air and F-air have multiple hitboxes and can be used to frame trap. N-air is long lasting hitbox and can be used for frame traps as well. Keeping this in mind with Fox's vertical momentum, air-dodging can be dangerous.
- Fox has the shortest amount of start up in his jump: he takes 4 frames to leave the ground. He can chase very fast, regardless if you're above him or far from him.

+ Despite Fox's startup data, he does have cool-down in his moves, most notably his smash attacks.
+ Fox has lost his way of forcing approaches efficiently. Lasers are no longer as reliable as they used to be.
+ A global change is that all characters lost the ability to shield to interrupt fox-trots. This hurt Fox a lot, since he can't run in with shield until the fox-trot (ie, dash startup) animation is finished.
^ This means that the best way to space out Fox is just outside his fox-trot distance and play footsies. Watch out for pivot and walk-up anything, since his walking speed is still quite fast, and side-B mixups.

The MU

The only time Shulk is at an advantage is when Fox is offstage, as he has a very predictable recovery and Shulk can go deeeep and far offstage with Jump. Fox wins the ground, neutral, and everything else.

• You can interrupt Side-B recoveries with F-smash, F-air, and D-air.

If you toss Fox up in the air:

• Careful of landing N-airs and D-airs. U-tilt will beat both these options, but you gotta be fast since Fox falls really fast.
• Fox can only stall once with Shine in the air (or rather, he should only stall once, as the second time won't hold him there long). This was nerfed in this game.
• Side-B lets Fox escape to the other side of the stage very quickly and has very little landing lag. However, the unorthodox Back-slash can actually get there fast enough when he lands from it, depending on how far you are from him.

Speed monado ties Shulk's dash speed with Fox's for 4th fastest running speeds: both are put on the same speed tier in terms of dashes. Shulk's walking speed becomes the fastest in the game.

Jab -> Jab 2 is an infinite on Shulk at any percent, though Fox must be frame perfect if Shulk is below 25%.

• Below 20%, Shulk can escape if he has Shield equipped by DIing down: he'll land right away and be able to grab Fox before his next set of jabs come out, thanks to the added weight.
  • This is a RISKY strategy, however, since Fox can also throw a U-tilt to start comboing you. Being in Shield and getting combo'd is not worth, even if the damage Shulk receives is lessened.
• If he's hitting you with the jab while you're slightly above the ground (ie, let's say you short-hopped and a jab stuffed you), since it takes longer for you to fall back to the ground, Vision counter here would activate before you land on the ground and suffer landing lag.
  • ONLY try to counter it if you get hit by the first jab while you were in the air. If you were standing, use jab or grab.
• Additional notes on jab -> jab 2:
  • You can also escape the jab -> jab 2 barrage if Fox spaces incorrectly:
    • DI in if he's hitting you close to his body. The second jab will make him step forward, missing the next string of jabs.
      ^ Beware of a follow-up U-tilt or turnaround grab, however.
    • DI away if he's hitting you right on the tip of his fists and if you're in Speed. Careful of the run up U-smash though.
  • Fox steps forward with jab 2, which means he'll run out of stage eventually and won't allow it to be a "true" infinite.
  • The second jab can make Fox step off a ledge. Be mindful of where you are, since Fox can act out of walking offstage into a N-air or potentially deadly F-air spike.

Buster and Smash, like Shield, are a risk in this MU:

• Fox's damage output isn't as scary as it was in Brawl's, but he still racks up respectable damage up close.
• Fox can also just run away while in these modes and shoot lasers.
  • If you are in Buster, Smash, Vanilla, or Shield especially, Foxes that like to run away and get greedy with lasers can get a nasty surprise with our dash attack. The long lunge forward can hit them to punish the guns lag. This will not work on smart Fox players who know when to stop shooting lasers though.
• Buster equipped means you also deal a lot more shieldstun and pushback, something Fox doesn't like being a light-weight character.
  • Make good use of the better range in this Monado against Foxes that like to use dash -> shield or walk -> shield to get in, this is how you will keep them off of you.
  • I recommend referring to Berserker's guide on Buster mode in the Shulk board.
• Smash equipped is safe at the start of the stock, where the risk of getting KO'd is low and getting knocked farther away serves us well to escape the vortex of Fox.

Other Monado advantages and notes:

• Jump short-hop B-airs come out just in time as you get close to the ground. Tomahawk jumps are risky since Fox can easily snipe with his own B-air, U-air and N-air, but if you get the read they're effective to land the grab on Fox.
• Speed use fading N-airs and F-airs to keep Fox out. After landing, use d-tilt if Fox is running at you or U-tilt if he's trying short-hop / tomahawk jump approaches.
• Shield lets Shulk punish Fox's Smash attacks using an F-smash out-of-shield.
• Buster on a 20% or less Fox: D-throw -> F-smash does 35% damage. At 25% and more, you can chase him with dash attacks if he starts DIing far away from you. At more than that, after 55%, F-throw -> Dash Attack, F-smash or F-air (dependent on DI) is hard to escape. Vision is gawd-like in this Monado as well.
• Smash helps out for KOs on the light character Fox is, and again is safe when at low percents.

Vision:

• Absolutely awful if Fox baits it, but absolutely incredible if you manage to land the counter.
• A Vision counter has turned the tides in this MU more times than I can count. To put it in perspective, a countered Fox Up-smash can KO him at ~50% from centre stage Final Destination, and this is not counting Power Vision.
• In layman's terms, be very smart about how you go using Vision, watch what Fox is doing carefully to find your openings.

Stages:

• Avoid Battlefield, Final Destination, Halberd, and Town & City.
• Smashville, Castle Siege, and Delfino are definitive recommendations.
• Lylat and Duck Hunt: if you like them. Otherwise, avoid them.

I've covered just about as much as came to mind regarding what Shulk can do in this MU and what will happen to him.

IMO:
35:65 in Fox's favor. (-2 Shulk)

In conclusion, I believe that Fox wins this with a notable advantage. Shulk's neutral game is slow, which means Fox can bait out his footsies and get in on him as soon as he makes the first mistake.
As I covered above in all my points though, there are things that you can keep in mind during the MU.

EDIT: added notes on offstage and stages. Cleaned up the post as well.

As a final note, I can't stress this enough: Fox can't shield to interrupt his fox-trot (dash startup) anymore like he could in previous games. You CAN play footsies with him if you think he'll dash forward. Stay just outside his fox-trot distance and space him there.
Learning this distance and using your range correctly will be what takes this matchup from 25:75 in Fox's favour to 35:65. It's that vital to learn how to play footsies vs Fox.

nice tips i find this matchup so hard, i think the best way to deal a fox is the patient because he can punish all the shulk moves.

 

[erico9001]

This thread has really helped me against Foxes. In For Glory, I ran into a Fox player that was able to get me into several jab jab combos. He seemed like a pretty technical Fox player. His name is xSinCarax, and I actually found him on youtube later. Anyways, I made sure to stay patient, using mostly monado speed, not tossing out smash attacks, not countering under pressure, and I won the matches we played! I was very happy.

 

[Grexin]

Just something I'd like to mention here , after some testing I've found that at 60% and above Fox cannot survive an uncharged U-Smash even while DI'ing correctly with Hyper Smash on from the center of Final Destination , I haven't tested yet but I think that Hyper Smash and Hyper Shield Shulk can escape Fox's double jab infinite on Shulk , I can't test it though ...
Also my perspective on the matchup , I have quite some experience on it and can say Shulk solidly loses this matchup and you cannot win without outplaying your opponent , I've read all posts here and can say , If you use Buster right , it can be EXTREMELY helpful , I've racked up damage all the way to 100%+ a couple of times and found more success with Hyper Buster since Fox, being a fast-faller, can be combo'd into oblivion with this , it is a double-edged sword but if used correctly can be extremely helpful, I agree that this is a 30:70 for Fox , make sure to abuse how light he is (as light as Pikachu and Olimar) and be wary with Smash on , even more so with Hyper Smash on , once you put these on , if the Fox is impatient and aggro you can think that they'll go with a kill move or setting up an advantage , I've once punished a Fox's dash attack with a JC U-smash OoS which was pretty cool , be patient and do loads of mindgames here , I've had more success in going in on Fox than him going on me before he can and setting up an advantage with mindgames and keeping him guessing , I will say this again , in order to win this matchup you must really outplay your opponent and I believe this is Shulk's worst matchup but there are things you can do in it.

 

[Berserker.]

Even until now, I still have no idea on how to make this match-up less of a pain in the neck. Jab locks are seriously my only gripe in this MU... that and Fox's frame data, but seriously. That jab lock annoys the hell out of me. I still think this is Shulk's worst MU (Solid disadvantage at -2) or in other words, 70:30/65:35 Fox

 

[Sonicninja115]

Fox has the ability to (almost literally) run circles around shulk. Using smashes as punishes is very situational as foxes moves have low enough lag that the optimal punish is usually a grab or a punish. However, Shulk does have the advantage in the air, as he has longer aerials , so shulk is able to box fox out at times. I also find that if shulk DI's away from d-throw he is able to get a fair off before fox can combo with an aerial. 70/30, Fox's favor.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't think Fox's mobility is the issue at this point (it wasn't even the issue in the first place) since speed and jump exist. His jab lock is really my source of hatred for this match-up. Shulk needs to avoid getting jab locked too much in the match-up since he's one of the easier characters to jab lock in the game. In speed art though, you can DI faster out of jab lock while in shield, you can reduce the damage output taken from jab locking while staling Fox's jab. Oh right, Fox's baiting options are really good and he can abuse it really well against Shulk. Once Shulk makes a mistake, he's ****ed unless he switches fast enough to shield (which helps in alleviating the punishment). Best thing you can do against Fox is to take advantage of your range and keep him out. Try not to get baited a lot, shield his approaches (because Fox lacks safe approach options which is why he relies on baiting), and don't let him get close to you

Oh and, use Shulk's d-tilt against Fox. It's one of your safer spacing options and it's also your fastest ranged option on the ground

But srs, **** this MU lol. We need to figure out which arts are good at the specific moments for this MU

Disclaimer: It's not an impossible match-up. Just an up-hill battle

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

I don't know much about this matchup, but I will say that it's a good idea to be just out of attack range but close enough to punish lasers in neutral. Approaching Fox can be tricky, so being in a safe area away from Fox can slow the game down, which I think Shulk benefits from greatly. I also find that we are often forced to play Fox's game with all the laser pressure. What if we forced him to play our game by just jumping around in Jump mode? The fact that he has to adapt to our play means that he could make a mistake, which Jump Shulk could capitalize on. I don't know, most of this is conjecture, but the hard deets on this matchup have already been covered.

I still think matchup sucks, though.
-2

 

[Berserker.]

I was thinking of using shield art to deal with Fox's damage output but using jump art was always a reliable option if played right right anyway. I guess

Better to avoid damage than to take it

 

[Sandfall]

A while back, Zero posted this tidbit on reddit. He was talking about Ness, but we might be able to apply this to our game in some form as well:

To beat Fox you have to abuse the fact that he has no kill throws, allowing you to spam shield at kill percents. You [Ness] have the best kill throw in the game, so you wanna use that.

While we obviously don't have Ness tier throws, we do have some pretty decent kill throws in smash art. The fact that Fox can't kill off of a throw means that Smash art might be slightly more safe to use than against other chars have kill throws (assuming we're spamming shield and playing very defensively). While this doesn't really do much to alleviate the jab lock issue, it still might be an option worth exploring.

 

[Berserker.]

Fox also sort of lacks safe approaches (most of his attacks are unsafe on shield) so he's gonna try baiting you out most of the time so that he can punish Shulk. Instead of committing to Shulk's aerials/attacks (d-tilt though is safe to throw out), hiding in shield (not the art) and focusing on reacting to Fox may be another good tactic against Fox. It's a bit more dependent on the player than the character though

Dave mentioned buster art's pushback being good against Fox. I second that. Buster isn't THAT risky against Fox tbh even with the defense debuff. Using b-air against Fox is really tricky since Fox falls fast and he can react out of hitsun really quickly even if you land clean hits with any attack in buster art. Buster is probably optimal at ~35%+

That's all I can think of for now

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

To beat Fox you have to abuse the fact that he has no kill throws, allowing you to spam shield at kill percents.

This is a great point, and I think it could be very useful with Air Slash out of shield in Smash mode. You can use it if Fox is spacing back airs on shield. Same thing with dash cancelled up smashes. Up B out of shield is a riskier option than shield grab, but it can be more beneficial to us in some cases, like when we're at center stage.

EDIT: Ok, I faced a competent Fox on Anther's Ladder today, and I agree, this matchup totally blows. He blocked every one of my aerials, retreating or not, and immediately shield grabbed me. My Roy seemed to fare much better.

 

[Sandfall]

Rejoice everyone! Fox's double jab lock got patched out. This will make the matchup a lot more bearable.

 

[Grexin]

Now that the jab lock is goooooone I say this matchup is 65:35.

 

[DavemanCozy]

This matchup is way better for Shulk now that jab-lock is gone.

I never really liked it tbh, I used it on MikeTavish before and felt dirty after, got back to Long Dong Ontario and took a shower.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We got around to doing this in the Fox boards:
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...discussion-thread-mr-g-w-shulk-mewtwo.393061/

Discuss Monado boy vs furry with a gun;
vs