Fox and other issues

[Midlumer]

Hello Smashboard,

I'm new to this forum and apart from introducing me, I have a bunch of questions to improve my play !!

I was a relatively good amateur player and regularly smash with a good fellow of mine, when I stumbled upon the eye opening Competitive Strategy FAQ by cheeseball341... I started reading and didn't understand a word. DJC, short hop, Z-cancel - I thought cool, but cannot nearly be that important 'cause I do not play so bad.
And then I mad the biggest mistake of all: I started watching some of the linked videos and I freaked out!! My mind went from 'WTF' to 'cheating is so lame' and finally to 'OMG, I am a newbie!!'.
After that I didn't know what to practice first. I decided in favor of Z-canceling, so the next time my friend came around I saw it as a training lesson and lost the first 3 hours constantly trying to Z-cancel every time I hit the ground . The next three hours it sometimes worked and I started winning again.
I rewatched the videos and realised that there is a japanese version of SSB64, which differs from the US one we were playing... With a cool 'smack' hitting sound, a stronger Link and a smaller but nevertheless smoother Mario.

So yesterday we played the J version and are planning on keeping it that way. My friend plays mostly Mario and I mostly Fox, and here comes my problem: I always was slightly better than my friend, while we were playing the US version, but now his Mario is smaller therefore harder to hit, my laser does less damage and the nerfing fireballs seem to have more KB.
So I constantly lost, could be because I had a bad day too; yet that is what indirectly brought me here. I desire to play technically better, to be able to use Fox'es abilities when and were I want. On the following I will list up the issues that came up when I started thinking about writing here.

• Z-Cancel: Does it make sense to Z-cancel every time I will hit the ground, disregarding if a landing lag would occur or not? To include it into my game as some sort of reflex? When I warmed up, about 1/2 times I still see the shield animation and if I land close to my opponent, he instantly grabs me which gives me a hard time recovering afterwards.
• Shine Cancel: Should I always shine cancel with Fox instead of Z-cancel? Is it like an attack on landing? Haven't tried it properly yet. Or does it mean short hop shine cancel to get the shield up and down immediately without recovery lag? Sounds hard to master.
• Jump Double/Triple Laser: I kind of know how to do it by now, I use my thumb on Left-C and slide to B tapping it. But only 1/10 I get the triple laser out, most times I just achieve to fire twice...
• Short Hop: I train really hard, but haven't even nearly found a way to pull that one off constantly. Currently I manage to short hop like 1/20 when I want it^^... I am trying to button slide Down-C -> A or Left-C -> B with my thumb for either attacking or Double Laser, but it is really inconsistent. Any pro hints on how I could improve that? Or is it just trying zillion times until it finally works?
• SHDL: Impossible for me. As described above, sometimes I achieve a SHL, but that's it. Not once I managed it...
• U-Tilt: Impossible for me to pull off this one from just standing. Every time I either jump and do an U-Aerial or it ends with an U-Smash how do you do it? Or can I just use it in combos with pre-directing up while in a jump or something? Kinda similar to F-Tilt. I always Dash-A or F-Smash.
• FF Z-Cancel: Unbelievably hard in my eyes.
• Fireball: Any good counter-tactics? If my friends spams those in my direction, I'm often screwed even with Fox. If I shield, it holds only so long, if I reshield a lot, I can't do anything else, if I shine, he uses the recovery lag to approach me and if I try JDL or land an attack I get knocked back and most times don't even reach him.
• Mario's U-Smash: Man, how do I counter this?! He is very good at timing it, so attacking from above is a death trap for me. But even when I attack from the side, my priority is lower and he lands it. I have trouble approaching him when he is just standing around, which is kinda sad^^.

Or am I just stupid trying to master Fox, which seems to be the most technically challenging character?! (Don't quote on that, I like his potential )

Many thanks in advance for any comments that may help me best regards,

Midlumer

€: Maybe some Mod can bump it in the Character Specific Discussion, I am new to this forum and didn't see it, sorry .

 

[Yodan]

You should try to learn Z cancelling first, since it is one of the most important things to know about the 64 version of smash. It completely removes any aerial A moves landing lag. So combined with a short hop, it greatly speeds up your game, no matter what other tricks and skills you may or may not have. For this, I used to practice with link's down A since it has a horrific landing lag time to it. You will know instantly when you did it right. When I play now, I usually go trigger happy with the Z button right before I land as a reflex.

The shine cancel is really just sliding your finger between the closest C button and B while holding down. Thats it. It makes you jump, and one frame later, shine, and one frame after that, land to cancel the shine. When done quickly by flicking your thumb, its almost instant. Takes practice but was one of the easiest fox tricks I learned early on.

Short hopping, I just peck at the controller with my thumb, as in a really quick jab of the C button. No special tricks here, just practice practice practice. It becomes like night and day when pressing for a short hop vs a normal jump.

Lasers will be easier once you can consistently short hop properly.

As for Mario...jump over the fireballs with short hops to be able to approach while avoiding them, and don't put yourself in a situation where you can get up A'd. If you're next to mario and you aren't attacking, then chances are he will be. I always try to save my double jump till the last possible second for anyone, just in case I should have to bail out of a crappy approach.

I hope that helped, just practice jumps and Z cancels first, the rest will follow much easier!

 

[Sempiternity]

Short hopping is really easy if you slide your thumb off the edge of the C-button and onto the controller frame. Just barely graze it and you'll be shorthopping in no time.

It does make a loud clicking noise which is kind of annoying.

 

[clubbadubba]

if you get shinecanceling down, you can always shine cancel the fireballs so you don't have that shine lag. Its really not that hard, it just requires a quick sliding motion with the right thumb from left-C to B while holding down on the joystick.

tilts in general should be pretty easy from a standstill. Go in training mode and try it out. It may be that your controller is really bad, but other than that you just need some finesse. Push the stick up slightly and press A.

Since you say your shield pops out when you land, either you are holding z too long for zcanceling, or you are mashing z repeatedly after the landing. I suggest trying to tap z just once for zcanceling. At some point it will become second nature, just keep at it.

As for mario's usmash, well you can't predictably fall straight on top of mario or you get usmashed. You can take advantage of his willingness to randomly usmash by tricking him into doing it, and then hitting him before he gets out of lag.

For now, I recommend learning zcanceling, short hopping, and tilting. All are pretty crucial basic techniques that can be used by any character, so if you do decide to switch characters they will still help you.

 

[asianaussie]

Hello Smashboard,

I'm new to this forum and apart from introducing me, I have a bunch of questions to improve my play !!

I was a relatively good amateur player and regularly smash with a good fellow of mine, when I stumbled upon the eye opening Competitive Strategy FAQ by cheeseball341... I started reading and didn't understand a word. DJC, short hop, Z-cancel - I thought cool, but cannot nearly be that important 'cause I do not play so bad.

oh god that guide

it might not be obvious, but im the author of that guide and i can tell you a good deal of the information in there is outdated and very poor, but i see no real reason to update it since i would literally have to rewrite several large sections from scratch

better to disregard most info in there and ask here

• Z-Cancel: Does it make sense to Z-cancel every time I will hit the ground, disregarding if a landing lag would occur or not? To include it into my game as some sort of reflex? When I warmed up, about 1/2 times I still see the shield animation and if I land close to my opponent, he instantly grabs me which gives me a hard time recovering afterwards.

• 
  
  Always Z-Cancel and learn to do it so you don't shield accidentally. Hitting their shield and Z-cancelling will more often than not lead to a free grab, your combos link more easily, etc. Every character needs it, make it a reflex.
  
  

  [*]Shine Cancel: Should I always shine cancel with Fox instead of Z-cancel? Is it like an attack on landing? Haven't tried it properly yet. Or does it mean short hop shine cancel to get the shield up and down immediately without recovery lag? Sounds hard to master.

  Z-Cancelling and shine cancelling are totally different. Get rid of all the pre-conceptions you have about it right now, my guide must have explained it in a rather awful way. Z-cancels apply when landing while in an aerial A-move animation and are universally needed. Shine cancels are unique to Fox and involve just jumping and shining (Down-B) really fast to get the 1 frame of hitbox that the shine has. This resets to a standing position so you can jab, D-Tilt, run away or even shine cancel again. It's an almost-instant option Fox has and is quite versatile once mastered.
  
  

  [*]Jump Double/Triple Laser: I kind of know how to do it by now, I use my thumb on Left-C and slide to B tapping it. But only 1/10 I get the triple laser out, most times I just achieve to fire twice...

  Not that useful. Triple laser gives you a ground level laser a lot, but you should train short hops. I'm removing this particular technique from the guide next (?) revision.
  
  

  [*]Short Hop: I train really hard, but haven't even nearly found a way to pull that one off constantly. Currently I manage to short hop like 1/20 when I want it^^... I am trying to button slide Down-C -> A or Left-C -> B with my thumb for either attacking or Double Laser, but it is really inconsistent. Any pro hints on how I could improve that? Or is it just trying zillion times until it finally works?

  The protip is to practise a lot. Fox is really hard to short hop with.
  
  

  [*]SHDL: Impossible for me. As described above, sometimes I achieve a SHL, but that's it. Not once I managed it...

  Learn short hops first. Then short hop single lasers. Then SHDL.
  
  

  [*]U-Tilt: Impossible for me to pull off this one from just standing. Every time I either jump and do an U-Aerial or it ends with an U-Smash how do you do it? Or can I just use it in combos with pre-directing up while in a jump or something? Kinda similar to F-Tilt. I always Dash-A or F-Smash.

  Um...if you're using a stick then just tilt the stick very slightly, don't jam it all the way up. Alternatively, you can buffer, but that's more applicable if you're using keyboard.
  
  

  [*]FF Z-Cancel: Unbelievably hard in my eyes.

  You'll get this with time.
  
  

  [*]Fireball: Any good counter-tactics? If my friends spams those in my direction, I'm often screwed even with Fox. If I shield, it holds only so long, if I reshield a lot, I can't do anything else, if I shine, he uses the recovery lag to approach me and if I try JDL or land an attack I get knocked back and most times don't even reach him.

  Shine cancelling is generally the optimal method. Fox's jabs and F-Air/B-Air eat through the fireballs. I doubt it's different in (J), but it might be, I dunno.
  
  

  [*]Mario's U-Smash: Man, how do I counter this?! He is very good at timing it, so attacking from above is a death trap for me. But even when I attack from the side, my priority is lower and he lands it. I have trouble approaching him when he is just standing around, which is kinda sad^^.

run up to him and shield (lol)

Or am I just stupid trying to master Fox, which seems to be the most technically challenging character?! (Don't quote on that, I like his potential )

If you can master Fox then everyone else is pretty easy in comparison. Except maybe Yoshi.

 

[okisme]

tip: dont get hit

 

[Midlumer]

Guys you really helped me a lot already best forum, didn't expect it to be so vivid!! Thanks especially to the longer replies from Yodan, clubbadubba and asianaussie.

Tilts work for me now, SH sometimes, even SHDL^^. Wow and Shine Cancel is damn easy and incredibly useful... But ofc I am still struggling to pull off everything frequently, still getting owned by my Mario-friend that frequency and KB of them FBs and those U-Smashes are a pain in the *** . Failing with Z-Cancel and teching is the thing destroying me the most at the moment. So you really Z-Cancel/tech everything, aight?!
I guess now it's just repeating and training everything a gazillion times until it's second nature, and after that beginning to internalize some starter combos.

oh god that guide

it might not be obvious, but im the author of that guide and i can tell you a good deal of the information in there is outdated and very poor, but i see no real reason to update it since i would literally have to rewrite several large sections from scratch

better to disregard most info in there and ask here

[...]

Well some information may be outdated/poor, but nevertheless it opened my eyes to a whole new world, without it I would never have realized that there are things like SHDL so thank you for that!!

I got some follow-up questions: How many frames does one second in SSB64 have? Is it 25, like in my favorite good ol' Diablo II?!

And: How many frames before hitting the ground I have to Z-Cancel so I neither see the landing nor the shield animation? Is it the same for teching?! Just for me to get an idea how much it is in millisec.

I had a few more questions, but I forgot them like 7 seconds ago^^.

Anyone got some pro videos on Fox vs. Mario? Might be a big help for me too . Thanks!!

tip: dont get hit

Best hint eva, gonna keep in mind !!

 

[Yodan]

Well, I don't know the technical number of frames for Z canceling, I just eyeball it at this point. I press the button slightly before my character lands. Same for teching. Just as a good reflex try to make it that whenever you get knockback, no matter what, slap the Z button a few times quickly while you're about to hit the ground. You'll get used to using it when needed and the same goes for Z canceling.

I would say for teching to use 99 stock and a level 6 or 7 computer to get hit a few times in a row and try timing the Z button. It really is easy once you know what your animations look like after a while. Each character weighs differently so each one has a certain feel to it.

 

[Sempiternity]

There are 60 frames in a second, and you have a giant 20 frame window to Z-cancel and tech.

Both are incredibly easy to pull off in this game, as you can simply mash the z button. This is especially useful for teching. I know in Melee, only one tech input registers each 60 frames, so if you're too early with the tech, you'll miss it (might be the same for L-cancel, not sure), but in 64, all ya gotta do is mash z as you're flying through the air. It is incredibly easy to tech every single time.

 

[clubbadubba]

hype match from Apex 2012 (early january) of 2 guys who finished top 10 in the tourney

Firo vs Nintendude

I'm afraid the metagame is going to be a bit better then mario stands still and headbutts, but the fox does a really good job of dealing with fireballs so maybe you can learn something from it.

Smash is 60 frames per second. As Semp just said 20 frames before the ground to zcancel, though I wouldn't be surprised if different moves have different frame requirements. Training mode is good for zcancel practice. Go there with fox, SH dair zcancel, then jump immediately and do it again Until you its fluid.

 

[Sempiternity]

though I wouldn't be surprised if different moves have different frame requirements.

I think some moves have wonky hurtboxes (like Link Uair and Fox Dair) and while they look like they're within cancelling range, they're really not, leading to missed cancels.

Pretty sure it's 20 frames all around.

 

[Sangoku]

Pretty sure semp is right.

And yeah, don't hesitate to mash z to tech (why bother timing it?), but learn the timing for z-cancels.

 

[kys]

There's no way I'm reading what everyone else replied, so I apologize if this has already been covered.

The ONE thing, if there is just one, that I would suggest to any Fox main is this: Whether or not you can SHDL or just SHSL, the most important aspect of that technique is to make sure it links into another move. Doesn't matter if it's jab, dtilt, fair, dair, grab, etc.

So many foxes sit there all fancy-like, hopping and pew-pewing to their hearts content, and then suddenly rush in. The result? Making contact with a fatty usmash. Or whatever move they feel like dishing out. Point being that SHDL can make people get lazy and predictable with their approaches.

THINK about what you're doing. A fox that only does SHL > grab effectively is nearly as infuriating and tough as a camping, utilt-happy kirby.

 

[asianaussie]

Training mode is good for zcancel practice. Go there with fox, SH dair zcancel, then jump immediately and do it again Until you its fluid.

disclaimer: this will not make you immediately able to z-cancel everything properly because you're over-focused on z-cancelling

i would recommend doing that a bit to get the motions down, then playing some CPU matches and slowly integrating Z-cancels into your play

if you ever play (U) then you will probably be screwed by the slowdown with drills, so pray this is never a problem lol

and to repeat what everyone eles has said: 60 frames/second in both (J) and (U), 20 frame (1/3 of a second) window before tech/z-cancel

 

[cheeseball341]

oh god that guide

What a good guide.

I learnt from that guide and became Aus' best player.

 

[Sangoku]

I learnt from that guide too. It brought me on youtube and here at least.

 

[asianaussie]

don't know if i should be flattered or depressed

maybe i really do need to update that dredge

 

[Ninja in Overalls]

that guide is still one of the best guides out there especially since it is not written by a noob and succeeded in opening a lot of peoples eyes, including mine, to the non ******** noob world of smash.
Luckily for me i have a pretty good noob bull**** detector or i would be a lot worse off...
In mario kart double dash for instance most of the guides either started with "heavy characters are fastest" or "staff ghosts are hard," so of course i immediately closed that ****. I actually considered sending the writers some rage mail but i got lazy
anyway, there is usually only a couple of actually good guides for each game, if we had more guides like the cheeseball one we would have a bigger competent smash community.
So thats basically why that is one of the best guides for a noob. And even if you think it is crap, it is a noob's goldmine. pros have no business reading guides

 

[M!nt]

well I guess im the minority never heard of your guide and i haven't even been to gamefaqs since like 2002, I completely forgot about that place.

 

[asianaussie]

you're not missing out on much

im sick and can't study properly, maybe ill update that thing

i should just kill the second half of the guide, reading it burns my eyes

 

[clubbadubba]

maybe you should just make a new guide that is mostly copy and paste with some edits, just so the original isn't lost if you mess it up. i haven't read it but most people with the exception of you seem to find it useful

 

[Ninja in Overalls]

well I found it when I had no idea how to actually play ssb, so not sure if someone like you would find it useful.

 

[ballin4life]

cheeseball thanks for this tip:

Remember, videogaming can be hazardous to your health. Attempt to rest or have a break at regular intervals.

 

[Ninja in Overalls]

what?? heresy!!

 

[asianaussie]

the shoutouts section is riddled with nostalgia

maybe ill attempt to start playing again

after my hiatus of 4 days

 

[cheeseball341]

1der - Probably the best player not named Kuromatsu at the moment. Excellent
Fox with proper combos, interesting shine/recovery tactics and a good, coolm
mindset. Plays other characters with gimmick tactics and still manages to win
handily: person who is the most fun to get owned by

That's the most beautiful thing ive ever read.

 

[asianaussie]

that was relevant about 8 years in the past

hence the term 'nostalgia'

 

[cheeseball341]

Seems pre relevant imo.

 

[asianaussie]

maybe after you start using actual good decks and not bad hipster ones

and maybe after you beat my terrible pikachu irl

 

[cheeseball341]

I just like playing defensive. Not my fault that equals bad in tcg.

And smash dont matter without 3 frames of lag.

 

[asianaussie]

play gigas truth

the secret is using seeker + re-evolving when you need to put eviolite on

80 a turn and infinity damage when you need it

 

[cheeseball341]

the secret is sabledonk.

$10 says we can get this thread closed for spamming