Forward Throw + Warp potential (other misc)

[JayWon]

Hey guys! I main Pikachu (Palutena's secondary) and tried transfering over Pikachu's utilizations of the Quick Attack playstyle to Palutena's Warp Up-Special. It seems like incorporating Warp in Palutena's neutral game hasn't quite received enough attention in this forum and I'm asking all of you to help out and experiment more aggressively with Warp. Warp has more than acceptable, decent start up and end lag to work with (relatively speaking, compared to Zelda/Shiek's similar Up-Special), and let's be honest, it's no where near as punishable than Palutena's tilts.

For starters, I encourage all of you to experiment mixing your throws (I know Down throw is amazing) by throwing your opponent towards the center of the stage with either the appropriate Forward or Back throw. I found out you can very easily follow up a Forward throw with a horizontal Warp to continuously maintain pressure. The knockback of Forward throw is not very affected by the amount of percentage the opponent has. Whether the opponent is at 0% or 100%, immediately Warping horizontally towards your opponent after a Forward throw consistently puts Palutena in a very great position to follow up with another set of attacks.
The knockback of the Back Throw, however, is not as consistent as the Forward throw because it is more affected by percentage than that of the Forward throw. The angle of the knockback of the Back throw is a lot more vertical as well, so I found myself aiming an Up-Smash and/or actually using the Up-tilt after Back throw >> Warp.

Have the mindset of finding ways to efficiently connect moves, rather than expecting to find true combos. (As a Pikachu main, it's very selfish if I feel entitled to have a guarantee Thunder combo after an Up-throw. That would be pretty OP and that's why many people find Diddy OP because he can guarantee combo after throws all the time.)
Though Palutena's dash is very fast, Warp is even faster when you want to position yourself at Warp's given certain distance. Warp also puts you back in neutral so you won't accidentally Dash attack or Dash grab. Keep in mind, it is possible to not go the full horizontal Warp distance depending on how much you angle the control stick towards the ground.

Additionally, keep in mind when hanging on the ledge, Palutena has the option to drop >> warp back on stage. Compared to rolling back on stage, Warping back on stage goes deeper in (about a character length more).

Also, for the potential development of Palutena's meta game, try perceiving Warp as a very long range shield roll; See where that might take her.

Please discuss and share your findings! Good luck!


________
Edit:
Hi guys, just a quick example I just did to show the potential. Obviously a jab or another grab would have been much faster than a F-Smash but in this case I got away with it and it worked out. I'll post more examples as I play For Glory.
https://vine.co/v/OvhB9HZzPmg

Here is another example. I could have Warped much much faster (as shown in example above) after the Forward throw but for some reason I took my sweet time:


(more to come...)

 

[MzNetta]

Ive played against a Quick Attack Pikachu recently and it seemed really effective. I like this, ill try it out.

 

[JayWon]

Hi guys, just a quick example I just did to show potential. Obviously a jab or another grab would have been much faster than a F-Smash but in this case I got away with it and it worked out. I'll post more examples as I play For Glory.
https://vine.co/v/OvhB9HZzPmg

 

[InfinityCollision]

Why are you using so much large bold text

Warp as a movement option actually has gotten a decent amount of attention on this forum, particularly since you can edge cancel it. I disagree with your claim that a typical grounded Warp is significantly faster for following up throws though; it's actually slightly slower if you don't ledge cancel it. That's also not a neutral game application, as you're not in neutral during that time

Warp's potential as a movement option is also limited by its inability to travel through platforms.

 

[JayWon]

Nothing is bolded in my post.

Let's say Warp's full horizontal distance is arbitrarily 5. Dash is faster at arriving at distance 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9,10 but Warp can get to 5 faster than Dashing to 5.

 

[InfinityCollision]

About 80% of the text in the OP is noticeably larger than the default on my end.

You arrive sooner, but you cannot act sooner. Even if you come to a full stop, you'll still be able to act sooner out of a run. If you jump, usmash, etc instead then the difference is slightly larger still.

 

[JayWon]

I'm not sure about the specific frame data but I guess it would be nice if someone can compare the speed of 'Warping >> Action' to 'Dashing to same location >> Action'

 

[xnine]

I feel like if you can forward/back throw and then follow up a ledge canceled warp, then it could be pretty crazy. If you are in the middle of the stage though, I do think that down throw is your best option.

 

[deepseadiva]

It reads like your yelling when you use huge fonts.

Uhm, also I like the concept of using Warp more, but the fthrow -> warp thing seems very punishable.

 

[Ganreizu]

DK might have been able to di up more and use fair to punish?

 

[Pale Tuna]

I only use warp to edge cancel and either Nair or Dair off ledge. Not sure if it can get more useful than that besides being safe and less gimpable than most other recoveries. Also a good spacing tool I guess. Ouo For forward throws, I generally follow up with auto reticle if I am close to the ledge.

 

[Rainiris]

I use Warp as a method to escape from terribad into good. As most opponent will try to dash into me after this, and most times the travel distance given rom teh warp gives enough time to land a smash for game. It has some uses related to distracting your opponent... but the usage proposed inthe gif is dangerous. A quick oppnent can just roll out of that smash.

I follow up Fthrows with AR. Forces them to take extra damage or stay in neutral.

 

[JayWon]

You guys are all missing the point. Of course DK could have reacted better and of course DK could have DI'ed as well (in that case DK ended up much closer than usual). And you should expect different players to react variously. The whole point is to show there are huge follow up potentials after the Forward throw >> warp due to good positioning. This is not a combo but just to show it provides Palutena the opportunity to react in her favor and maintain pressure.

Please experience it yourself before saying it's punishable because it really isn't that punishable. You'd be surprised.

 

[InfinityCollision]

It's not what you're trying to make it, sorry. If we were talking about ledge canceled warps that would be one thing, but what you're describing is a strictly inferior option.

 

[JayWon]

I literally wrote two paragraphs describing/asking people to experiment with Forward throw >> Warp because of the potential for it CONSISTENTLY puts Palutena in a great position to maintain pressure with proper follow up/reaction, and I literally posted one vine wtih a disclaimer saying I got lucky and got away with a slow Forward Smash. Yet I guess its my fault for not being clear enough and being misleading. And apparently it's more important for you guys to frown upon me posting in a bigger font instead. Jesus Christ.

Here is another example:

I never said this was superior than ledge canceling warps but for you to imply this to be disregarded and not worth exploring is extremely closed minded and ridiculous.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Calm down. I'll say it again, since you're misinterpreting our statements:

-Fthrow -> dash allows you to act sooner than fthrow -> warp at the same position. Warp also requires more commitment and leaves you punishable during endlag, which could be problematic if the opponent is able to act before you exit endlag or in a doubles/4v4/FFA situation. Therefore, following up with warp is a suboptimal option. This should be the takeaway regarding the OP. I get that you don't like seeing your idea debunked so easily, but it really is that simple.
-Fthrow -> ledge cancel warp is potentially a viable exception because it allows you to act sooner than out of a normal warp.

 

[MzNetta]

I spent the greater part of last night playing 1v1 with friends and I'm afraid to say that it really is quite punishable with most characters. At higher percentages though, it is a fairly viable option to mix in with all of the DThrows but isnt necessarily better than simply dashing. It makes for a bit of surprise and can prevent things getting predictable so thats something.

 

[JayWon]

It's stylish at least. I guess warping can be better than dashing in rare situations like when you forward throw Pikachu and Pikachu immediately thunders to prevent people from chasing it. Or when Ganondorf is charging his warlock punch and warp can be used to warp behind him or something

 

[Undeviated]

Hey thanks for sharing. While I cannot test this currently (hand injury), I'd say any potential option for Palutena is a good thing as she is probably one of the most monotonic character in terms of offensive capabilities.

 

[Shack]

Warp is cool, but no where near as effective as Quick Attack because Quick Attack has a hit box, can change directions and if done correctly, allow you to follow up with UTilts and other moves. Maybe try using it with edge cancels into aerials? Right now those 2 videos you shared are way too slow and gimmicky. People will just block or punish you

 

[Opana]

Palutena Warp Cancel

I use this often with nair for great gimps. There's a lot more wiggle room for timing this than Zelda's teleport cancel too.

 

[DeliriousPirate]

I actually kind of agree with the OP. Warp has a lot of really solid uses when you're on offense. Dash is slightly faster, yes, but I think your options after a warp when the enemy is at +50% end up being far greater. I find myself using warp after favorable exchanges that send my opponent flying in a diagonal position away from me because my option select after the warp put me in a better position to stay offensive. Dashing requires lag time to pivot if there's DI involved. Getting that initial dash animation after a warp give tons of momentum to stay offensive with aerials as well as dashing upsmash and small jump uair reads.

It has a lot of practical 1v1 uses, but I don't see it being viable for anything other than that. 4v4 or Teams make Warp a joke.

 

[Lavani]

I really wanted to like the idea of fthrow>ledge cancel warp, but there's nothing guaranteed off of it as far as I can tell. Hitstun is too low and it takes too long before Palutena can act out of it.

If someone can figure out a way to end a true combo like this then I might have to pick this character up:

 

[Opana]

U only ever use itn to gimp with nair as it drags them down.

Edit:

Thought it was worth mentioning, you can shorten the distance of a teleport by tilting the stick instead of pushing all the way. Also, gonna experiment with different warp cancel distances as holding different diagonal positions allows this, plus I think it's possible to teleport from the air into a cancel.

 

[mimgrim]

Nah. Any opponent worth their salt wouldn't fall for this trick and would punish you for attempting to try this. You're better of just sticking with Dthrow.

I really wanted to like the idea of fthrow>ledge cancel warp, but there's nothing guaranteed off of it as far as I can tell. Hitstun is too low and it takes too long before Palutena can act out of it.

If someone can figure out a way to end a true combo like this then I might have to pick this character up:

This might have some potential on the other hand.