Food for thought/The future of Sm4sh (an open discussion)

[davidcrimsons]

So yesterday I get home to read this tweet of Anti stating "PEOPLE WERE ASS IN BRAWL THEN WHEN SMASH 4 CAME OUT THEY GOT A POWER BOOST SMH" and then went on to say "IF YOU WERE ASS IN ALL OF BRAWL BUT YOU GET GOOD RESULTS IN SMASH 4, DONT ACT LIKE YOU TURNED INTO A BETTER PLAYER, THE GAME IS EASIER."

After immediately realizing that this was a salty post or a declaration of war (click bait) to all sm4sh and potential sm4sh players, I closed out of twitter and went on with my day. I come back to twitter X amount of minutes and Anti begins calling people out and getting defensive. At that point it isn't click bait, it is the rich white sediment-esque seasoning that we as gamers are all very well aware of, salt. Salt aside, this is not an appropriate way for a professional level Smash player (or any gamer for that matter) to act. To say that individuals gained a "power boost" because they decided to play sm4sh. It is perfectly normal for someone to play what is new at the time and become more successful at it. As many great commentators have said, skills between fighting games are transferable. Meaning that the possibility of skills/tech ability indisputably can translate over from game to game. So you can be "Ass at brawl" (quoting Anti) and "get good results" in Sm4sh because of your previous experiences with other titles and the passage of time. Sometimes, certain games just don't work for certain people and that's okay. There is nothing wrong with being mediocre at a game and somewhat better at it's predecessor. Without experimentation, there is no proven correlation between a player being bad at brawl and that same player being amazing at Sm4sh (correct me if I'm wrong and please have an example if corrected).

Throwing out a statement like Anti did honestly just hurts the community and deters new players from picking up the game or sticking with it. Learning curves and ease of learning a game is relative to the individual. Some people naturally pick games up and are good while others seem to struggle. For some, Sm4sh is the first game they have ever picked up seriously and considered to get competitive at. Perhaps Anti was under the influence of alcohol ( he later uploads a picture of himself drinking some) or just trolling but so what? This behavior is not justified. As a competitive player, he, like all other players, must uphold their responsibility of developing and nurturing a relatively new community. I'm not saying top level players have a job of keeping a game alive or recruiting new players but I do believe that individuals should be aware of the fact that they possess an influence over the community and to use it in such a negative fashion benefits noone. Also, by quoting Sakurai from an interview, which Anti conveniently did not scroll down and read the rest of Sakurai's opinion, and then stating "**** Sak" refutes his own argument which in turn, invalidates it.

( https://twitter.com/Anti_SSB/status/661764821814288384 )

Just because a developer says that a game was not made to be competitive, doesn't mean it can't be. The fact that there are gaming communities for fighting games developed by Nintendo (brawl notably because it was made to not be competitive at all) is living proof of that. A game becomes competitive not because of some developers decision or opinion, but because of the individual gamers who decide to support it. While Sakurai sees no competitive future for this game, this decision is ultimately up to us as a community to decide. It is up to the community to help a game develop and evolve.

Anti also brings up an interesting point that the interview linked above is only in reference to sm4sh. Unfortunately for him, if he had scrolled down just a little bit more, he would have noticed this:

( https://twitter.com/theharddd/status/661766553436823552 )

Sakurai states how he feels this game and it's mechanics appear to be "more interesting than the previous three titles." The very interview that Anti used as some sort of source (an incomplete one at that) refutes the only backed point that he made in regards to Sm4sh's future.

(Conclusion)

This post was made purely for discussion purposes. No I'm not salty, butthurt, or mad about the behavior described above, but I am rather disappointed in the overall behaviors of our Smash (not just Sm4sh) community in general as of late. I hope that people reading this read it all the way through and realize that this is my opinion that I backed up with a few facts. I'm open to discuss this or debate this because intellectual conversations are one purpose that forums should be used for.

P.S. I forgot to mention that the Sakurai interview has been cited as a bad translation so unfortunately, Anti's only "legitimate" source was falsified. I would also like to state that I am not a competitive brawl player but I did keep up with the scene as I will and have done with each iteration of Smash. While all Smash games are interconnected by elements like characters, controls, and gameplay format, we as a community need to realize and agree on one thing. That regardless of the skill gap or the ease of learning a game, all Smash games are different. They are their own individual games, each with their own mechanics and elements. This is what makes each iteration that much more interesting and enjoyable for such a large community. I also did not touch on how Anti called out specific players and insulted them. I feel that it may be something beyond what I am currently arguing but that is also open to discussion as well.

Sources:
Anti's original post: https://twitter.com/Anti_SSB/status/661757064969089024
Anti's twitter: https://twitter.com/Anti_SSB
Anti covering his tracks after much refutation from the masses: https://twitter.com/Anti_SSB/status/661778274692018176
https://twitter.com/Anti_SSB/status/661769815644835840

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

What an amazing read. I salute you.
This is exactly the reason why this community gets a bad rep. Erroneous statements like anti's, and the more "filthy memers" that alpharad and etika spawned. it's good to see that we are growing as a community.

 

[Smudges]

Ah, the mistakes of the few
it's happened before, its deja vu
trying to act cool
you looked like a fool,
our community you misconstrue.

Wow. Best poetry ever.

All seriousness, people need to watch what they say, especially as a competitive/well known representative. What Anti says reflects on our community highly. Hope it doesn't continue. Memers abound... oh no.

It just dawned on me that I spent more time on my limerick than on my actual post. And that my limerick sucked.

 

[davidcrimsons]

What an amazing read. I salute you.
This is exactly the reason why this community gets a bad rep. Erroneous statements like anti's, and the more "filthy memers" that alpharad and etika spawned. it's good to see that we are growing as a community.

Thank you for reading. And while I do appreciate alpharad and etika creating content for the Smash community, I do wish they would realize the effects they have on the community. I'm not against them creating content for our community but I feel that they have a responsibility of managing the meme/trolling of their fans to an extent. I don't expect them to be parents to their fans or anything but I would just like them to be aware of their influence on the community. I would speak on this further but I don't want to stray to far from the topic at hand.

Ah, the mistakes of the few
it's happened before, its deja vu
trying to act cool
you looked like a fool,
our community you misconstrue.

Wow. Best poetry ever.

All seriousness, people need to watch what they say, especially as a competitive/well known representative. What Anti says reflects on our community highly. Hope it doesn't continue. Memers abound... oh no.

It just dawned on me that I spent more time on my limerick than on my actual post. And that my limerick sucked.

Firstly, thank you for the poem.

Secondly, yes I hope Anti realizes that his actions not only make him look bad, but also make our community look bad. This is true for people who see our community from the outside and inside.

 

[PartlyAwesome]

A game becomes competitive not because of some developers decision or opinion, but because of the individual gamers who decide to support it.

I had to make an account just to quote this. I want to point out the silliest example of this being true which proves the case for every other game. Shrek SuperSlam; that game is a mess, and the scene was pretty much created by one of my friends joking around, but hell, people are actually playing that game seriously, modding the game to remove items, find techs, etc.

It's all about the players, the developers can try all they want to squash it (I'm looking at you Sakurai), but that'll just make the community stronger.

 

[davidcrimsons]

I had to make an account just to quote this. I want to point out the silliest example of this being true which proves the case for every other game. Shrek SuperSlam; that game is a mess, and the scene was pretty much created by one of my friends joking around, but hell, people are actually playing that game seriously, modding the game to remove items, find techs, etc.

It's all about the players, the developers can try all they want to squash it (I'm looking at you Sakurai), but that'll just make the community stronger.

I'm impressed. There is living evidence of my statement even to a game that I thought died long ago (shrek superslam). I'm honestly impressed by such dedication to a game not many may have heard of. Do you have video of the competitive scene/gameplay? This is definitely something I would like to see. Also, welcome to Smashboards! Thanks for making an account and joining a pivotal part of the community.

 

[PartlyAwesome]

Do you have video of the competitive scene/gameplay?

It's not the most active place ever, but Shrekboards is a thing. Slam in the Swamp is probably the easiest to watch, It's here on Twitch.

 

[SuperScope]

Dispite the fact you make anti sound pretty rude (I don't know the full story), I agree that smash 4 is simply the easiest smash game to play to date. I believe this is mostly to do with how well the game is programed. It's naturally more refined. Personally I'm trash in melee and 64 smash because the controls and timing are harder to execute.

I find this case to be similar to the Mario kart series. I'm really good in MK8 but I don't fair so well in previous iterations. Again this is due to how well the controls are programed.

 

[davidcrimsons]

It's not the most active place ever, but Shrekboards is a thing. Slam in the Swamp is probably the easiest to watch, It's here on Twitch.

This is

Dispite the fact you make anti sound pretty rude (I don't know the full story), I agree that smash 4 is simply the easiest smash game to play to date. I believe this is mostly to do with how well the game is programed. It's naturally more refined. Personally I'm trash in melee and 64 smash because the controls and timing are harder to execute.

I find this case to be similar to the Mario kart series. I'm really good in MK8 but I don't fair so well in previous iterations. Again this is due to how well the controls are programed.

I understand what you're saying. With newer games come smoother game mechanics and more accessibility but my argument was focused on how Anti stated such facts and labeled them as "power boost" in order to demean others. I linked specific tweets and also listed Anti's twitter to show, what I found to be, rude. Whether or not Sm4sh is the easiest game is completely up to the individual. It is relative to you and you are entitled to your opinion. I say this because the term "easy" can be defined and recognized differently by each individual. On that note I completely respect your opinion and recognize how you have come to such a conclusion and it is completely logical.

 

[GooberGaming]

This was a nice read!

I feel that with the different iterations of Smash your going to get a wide variety of players who prefer the different play styles of each game.

I played Melee ALOT back in the day, but I never took the time to be competitive and learn how to do things like wave dash. I never played Brawl because I bought a PS3 instead of a Wii when the game first came out , so Sm4sh is the first new Smash game that I have played in years, and the overall pace of the game suites me just fine.

Making statements like Anti's is just wrong. Each game is different, and you should respect those players who have reach a top level in each game. Adding negativity within the community just creates a bad image for the Smash community.

 

[davidcrimsons]

This was a nice read!

I feel that with the different iterations of Smash your going to get a wide variety of players who prefer the different play styles of each game.

I played Melee ALOT back in the day, but I never took the time to be competitive and learn how to do things like wave dash. I never played Brawl because I bought a PS3 instead of a Wii when the game first came out , so Sm4sh is the first new Smash game that I have played in years, and the overall pace of the game suites me just fine.

Making statements like Anti's is just wrong. Each game is different, and you should respect those players who have reach a top level in each game. Adding negativity within the community just creates a bad image for the Smash community.

Yes, and I am concerned with how people looking into our community see/will see us as a whole. If even our top players don't respect our game and players, then why should/would people of other communities do so? You also bring up a good point, I didn't think to bring up how some people actually prefer and are comfortable with different pacing in each respective game. Thank you.

 

[GooberGaming]

Yes, and I am concerned with how people looking into our community see/will see us as a whole. If even our top players don't respect our game and players, then why should/would people of other communities do so? You also bring up a good point, I didn't think to bring up how some people actually prefer and are comfortable with different pacing in each respective game. Thank you.

I think for the most part the Smash community is pretty tame. Considering that when I browse through the Smashboards, 90% of the users and posts are fairly positive and helpful. Majority of the Smash Pro players seem very genuine and kind, and it's not too often when I watch a live stream/YouTube videos of tournament matches where both players do not give each or props before a round starts and not shake hands after a match ends.

I think there's going be some sort of trash talk element in all competitive e-sports, and games and its really up to the players in the community to represent a more positive environment which I feel the Smash community is VERY tame especially when compared to communities like the League of Legends(Known for A SUPER TOXIC COMMUNITY), World of Warcraft( High level PVP is effected by cheating, forums are often filled with a lot of trash talk and trolls) etc.

 

[nintendonaut]

Thanks so much for you post, dude. I had seen Anti's tweet as well and it really disappointed and discouraged by it. Even though I've been playing Smash since the 64 days, Smash 4 is the first one I've played on a competitive level. I'm constantly inspired by my favorite players such as Mister Eric, Nairo, and Abadango to get better and push myself. But I also get frequently discouraged by the amount of hate that gets pushed towards Smash 4 and its community. Of course you have Melee-only-ists who are going to hate and that's not so bad. What really sucks is when you have people who are actually really good at Smash 4 and play it competitively, who even still rip on the game--Like Anti here.

I find it so ironic that when Brawl was the newest game, it was the laughing stock of the competitive community. Yet, now, with Smash 4, you actually have people like Anti talking up how skill-focused and great Brawl was and hating on Smash 4.

The local weekly that I attend has a bigger Melee following than Smash 4, but the Smash 4 turnout is usually decent anyways. I usually finish around 3rd-4th, which isn't so bad--But what I really hate is that some of the top players for Smash 4 there are mainly Melee players, and they don't seem to give a crap about Smash 4 at all. In fact, they openly bad-mouth it and say things like, "I hate this game, I just play it for the pot money because it's basically free cash." If you ask them to play friendlies after tournament, they usually say no because they just want to play Melee.

Well, it's fine if you prefer Melee, and it's fine if you want to dedicate most of your time to it. But it really stings for someone like me who puts a lot of time and effort into Smash 4 and then gets told, "Yeah, I don't even play this game I just enter for free money." It's basically saying, "It takes no effort at all to beat you," and that's really discouraging. Sometimes, if one of better Melee players decides to do some Smash 4 friendlies, there'll be smart comments made by the other Melee players. Most of them are all just in good fun, but I still hate how Smash 4 gets this sort of childish, unimportant rep--Where Smash 4 is the side-game and Melee is the main attraction. I know this doesn't represent all scenes--Xanadu/VGBC, for example, takes Smash 4 really seriously--But I still feel that Smash 4 has this generally unspoken "not-as-good" type vibe.

I know it's a fantasy, but I just wish people could accept that each of the Smash games, though very similar in many ways, are mechanically different in others. Different people focus on different games in the series, and we should respect that and praise players where praise is due in their game of choice, instead of playing this stupid, stupid game of, "This game takes more skill than that one."

 

[Foxus]

While I did not check out the links necessarily, I will give out my .2.

When Smash 4 came out, the community was fired up not necessarily in the best of ways. Even before the game was released, there were a bunch of conspiracy theories as to whether the leaks were real. The hate-love relationship with Brawl is mainly a bi-product of comparison, now that a new installment since then has come out. I was one of those Brawl bashers.

When Smash first came out, I thought nothing much about it than a fighting game added to the 1999 catalog for the N64. The game didn't have much to offer, but it wasn't a high-demand franchise then. I don't think Smash became competitive until the release of Melee, when Smash gained more popularity and the option of a tournament mode was offered, as well as a wider array of characters. I never knew about the competitive side of Smash until I decided to dig deeper with Smash 4. I thought it was nothing more than a game of leisure, like it was originally intended to be. As a side note, I don't normally suggest Smash as a game for leisure since its such a high paced game, and your reaction time has to be determined in a split second, for every second of the match.

Are there things in Melee I would prefer having over that in Smash 4? Yes.
Are there things in Brawl I would prefer having over that in Smash 4? Yes.
Do I cry fowl over it? No.
Am I willing to point out its faults? Yes.

There are some who can take a loss in Smash personally. I'll admit that is a weakness of mine at times, which is why I'd never play if money was involved unless I got high on confidence. and not in a cocky sort of way. But for the most part, I take a deep breath, take a sip of a beverage, and try to shrug the loss off.

Now, for answering the question. Whether or not Sakurai continues playing a role in Smash, in the scheme of things won't matter. The torch will be passed down to someone else, nothing more to it. The franchise is too much of a cash cow for Nintendo to sweep it under the rug. More community involvement in the games overall development and a wider timeframe of the development (3 years seems like a fair medium) would be good, and yet to be seen. Its better to take time and perfect everything over rushing and adding certain features at the last minute.

 

[davidcrimsons]

I think for the most part the Smash community is pretty tame. Considering that when I browse through the Smashboards, 90% of the users and posts are fairly positive and helpful. Majority of the Smash Pro players seem very genuine and kind, and it's not too often when I watch a live stream/YouTube videos of tournament matches where both players do not give each or props before a round starts and not shake hands after a match ends.

I think there's going be some sort of trash talk element in all competitive e-sports, and games and its really up to the players in the community to represent a more positive environment which I feel the Smash community is VERY tame especially when compared to communities like the League of Legends(Known for A SUPER TOXIC COMMUNITY), World of Warcraft( High level PVP is effected by cheating, forums are often filled with a lot of trash talk and trolls) etc.

I can agree with you on this. I joined the league of legends community last year and honestly, I've never meet such a concentration of toxic people in one place. Obviously there are good people in there too but the majority of who I have met is extremely toxic. I don't want to make this a "my community is better than others" discussion so I won't go into further detail. Hmu if you'd like to discuss other communities more.

 

[davidcrimsons]

Thanks so much for you post, dude. I had seen Anti's tweet as well and it really disappointed and discouraged by it. Even though I've been playing Smash since the 64 days, Smash 4 is the first one I've played on a competitive level. I'm constantly inspired by my favorite players such as Mister Eric, Nairo, and Abadango to get better and push myself. But I also get frequently discouraged by the amount of hate that gets pushed towards Smash 4 and its community. Of course you have Melee-only-ists who are going to hate and that's not so bad. What really sucks is when you have people who are actually really good at Smash 4 and play it competitively, who even still rip on the game--Like Anti here.

I find it so ironic that when Brawl was the newest game, it was the laughing stock of the competitive community. Yet, now, with Smash 4, you actually have people like Anti talking up how skill-focused and great Brawl was and hating on Smash 4.

The local weekly that I attend has a bigger Melee following than Smash 4, but the Smash 4 turnout is usually decent anyways. I usually finish around 3rd-4th, which isn't so bad--But what I really hate is that some of the top players for Smash 4 there are mainly Melee players, and they don't seem to give a crap about Smash 4 at all. In fact, they openly bad-mouth it and say things like, "I hate this game, I just play it for the pot money because it's basically free cash." If you ask them to play friendlies after tournament, they usually say no because they just want to play Melee.

Well, it's fine if you prefer Melee, and it's fine if you want to dedicate most of your time to it. But it really stings for someone like me who puts a lot of time and effort into Smash 4 and then gets told, "Yeah, I don't even play this game I just enter for free money." It's basically saying, "It takes no effort at all to beat you," and that's really discouraging. Sometimes, if one of better Melee players decides to do some Smash 4 friendlies, there'll be smart comments made by the other Melee players. Most of them are all just in good fun, but I still hate how Smash 4 gets this sort of childish, unimportant rep--Where Smash 4 is the side-game and Melee is the main attraction. I know this doesn't represent all scenes--Xanadu/VGBC, for example, takes Smash 4 really seriously--But I still feel that Smash 4 has this generally unspoken "not-as-good" type vibe.

I know it's a fantasy, but I just wish people could accept that each of the Smash games, though very similar in many ways, are mechanically different in others. Different people focus on different games in the series, and we should respect that and praise players where praise is due in their game of choice, instead of playing this stupid, stupid game of, "This game takes more still than that one."

I completely agree. Also I am sorry that your local community treats sm4sh so badly. Hopefully, your fantasy can become a reality through diminishing ignorance amongst our peers in the Smash community in general. I guess my statement is pretty much a dream in itself because if we were able to diminish ignorance, I think we could fix more alot more than negativity in a community. For now, I guess all we can do is stay accepting of the other communities including our own (in Anti's case), and try to educate one another on our games. A player should never feel bad because they are comfortable with the game that they are playing.